ramble hey what what’s this envelope nicole you’ve been served oh my god you’re getting a lawyer involved i had to because this is a hot dog as a sandwich or is it ketchup is a smoothie yeah i put ice in my cereal so what that makes no sense hot dog is a sandwich a hot dog is a sandwich welcome to our podcast a hot dog is a sandwich the show where we break down the world’s biggest food debates i’m your host josh shearer and i’m your host nicole initially and today is part three of us doing the damn thing finally trying to end the debate of is a hot dog a sandwich and i say trying nicole we’re trying so hard yeah it’s getting really hairy you know the philosopher totally rocked my world made me think one way and now mr lawyer man’s making me think a totally another way like what am i supposed to do here you can tell why from previous two conversations a lot of people who go to law school started out as philosophy major sure a lot of people do get their philosophy but yeah that’s right because you go from like the abstract of the philosophy where calvin was literally talking about socratic forms and human-made artifacts and hot dogs and how that relates to ethics correct and all that and then you know we got alex our lawyer who won he’s not just any lawyer he wrote this paper this is how we got in contact with him uh where he actually argued that the government needs to take a stronger stance on what a sandwich is and so we get all into that on the discussion it’s incredible but you go from the abstract of how to argue something how to think about the world into the practical of how do you create laws based on that and so to me that was really fascinating totally i mean he just seems so cons he thought one way he thought another kind of like lawyers do you know all they have to do is take the law and question it defend to defend the people that they’re trying to defend so hot dogs sandwiches burritos wraps everything it’s you got to take everything into account because those exist in the world and it’s literally a lawyer’s job to decide how to draw lines in the world you know that separates order from chaos also i felt like i was watching alex lawyer against himself i know that was the best part yeah his like brain was being racked of like do i want the government to define sandwiches do i need to define them anymore who knows it was like watching a really skilled quarterback throw the ball as far as he could run under it and catch it yeah anyways it’s an incredible conversation uh this is the first time that this is stuff that actually affects your life sure in the hot dog debate it is absolutely heating up please enjoy our conversation with lawyer alex park [Music] nicole there’s something i realized about this whole debate what’s that we’re not actually talking about whether or not a hot dog is a sandwich right we know a lot of hot dog we know what a hot dog is what we’re actually off the plan no no no let me explain what we’re really talking about here is what is a sandwich that’s the whole key to this you have to define the sample you have to yeah i guess you have to define a sandwich before you define all the other things that potentially could be a sandwich right that’s the sticking point that’s what they call like the impasse of this whole debate right no one can define what a sandwich is we talked to historian ken albala yes and he takes a very historical perspective of it right because he’s a historian he’s obviously right he was like sandwiches invented 1762 john montague earl of sandwich two slices of bread that’s what it has to be then we talked to professor calvin normore the metaphysicist right who comes in here and he’s like no no sandwiches exist on a continuum you have the perfect stereotype of a sandwich the ham on rye all the way down to the aberrations like a cracker with cheese and it’s up to society to draw the line of where the sandwich is but nicole we need help to actually draw that line i guess we do we need an agent of order amid the chaos and that’s where we get alex bark lawyer alex welcome yeah do you go by esquire is that a term that people use um i prefer not to use it but yeah people will throw it out there strike it from the record no longer say esquire nicole stop badgering the witness all right we’re getting all the lawyer terms that we know yeah okay i’m done all right so uh alex first of all man thank you so much yeah thanks for coming yeah thanks for having me i’m excited uh to get to the bottom of this it’s exciting first off do you do you think that we can actually end this debate we as in no three no why not i think well maybe maybe we’ll come to like a consensus here and we can agree on something because i was digging you know i was digging into it more and more you know as i was preparing for this and it’s like it’s pretty complicated so i think uh it’s we might be able to come to consensus but i’m not sure about it did you prepare for this podcast in the same way that you would like prepare for litigation uh yeah i would say well no i i would say i did a good amount of research a good amount of research yeah awesome man well so the reason we got in touch with you is because you wrote a piece for the minnesota law review this is when i believe you were in law school called constructing the sandwich where you argued that the government needs to take a stronger hand into finding a sandwich and you yourself set out an actual groundwork and a template for what that means can you tell me a little bit about this piece yeah so like you said it was when i was a law student um basically this started off as a lunchtime debate between my friend and i so i want to give a quick shout out to my friend hunter uh he’s going to be very surprised when he hears about this hey hunter so basically we would go to lunch like once a week we would uh we love eating together talk about whatever so we were debating about you know what is actually a sandwich and i had this blog post coming up that was due for a lot of you so i was debating you know should i write about something like related to soccer and like the relegation system in the u.s or should i write about sandwiches and the editor at the time she was like no you have to write about sandwiches you don’t have a choice anymore yeah look at me now so now i’m here so uh thank you uh to hunter thank you to my editor uh it’s all led to this moment the the climax the apex so yeah it’s um it’s like really popular to talk about you know whether what is a sandwich what does it mean yeah and it and it seems to be like go through cycles of being like a really popular hot topic and like kind of dying away and then coming back and um i think people it’s all like fun and games but then sometimes there is like you know actual like consequences for people particularly like food vendors maybe shopping malls sure that you know the meaning of a sandwich actually really does matter and as you guys stated like we don’t there isn’t really a precise definition or one that people can agree to so i try to set out and like propose a definition which i think is not really um encompassing everything now that i’ve like dug into it a little more like i don’t think it’s uh like broad enough but it is like what i was trying to do so well let’s let’s go into the reasons let’s go into the reasons why we would actually need to define this because you write about a court case i was going to say famous but i think it might only be famous yeah yeah but this is it’s a white city shopping center versus pr restaurants can you tell me about the case yeah so basically like uh there’s like a shopping center and they came to an agreement they had a contract with like a food vendor that was like you know you can’t we’re not gonna have another food vendor within your like vicinity that sells like more than 10 sandwiches and i think like whatever store was originally there a new like kudova or something was gonna open up and they’re like no like you can’t do this this is against like you know our contract your kudova is like a sandwich purveyor and it went to court and basically it was like well burritos are not sandwiches but they didn’t really have like precise definition they’re like oh you know you should use some common sense and you know we’ll look at this dictionary definition and that’s why like you know basically you know a burrito is just not a sandwich you know that’s basically what it came down to so well it’s really interesting to me that in this case you actually i mean one it’s such a silly freaking topic like we think this podcast is uh hilarious that he didn’t even exist right we’re talking about our pop-tarts ravioli on this podcast but like is a burrito a sandwich is literally a question that came before the judge at a high court and like what i think is funny is they like didn’t seem to have the tools to be able to answer it like they were scraping at dictionary definitions you know what i mean yeah which is wild because we talked about with the philosopher the difference between descriptive and prescriptive language correct like does the dictionary define what something is or do does society define what the dictionary definition is yeah and then the dictionary reflects that but in this court case they were i mean they defined a sandwich right by the dictionary definition of and i believe it said two thin slices of bread with a thin layer of filling which is even stranger because like this layer what does finn mean what is this i like stick both sandwiches yeah i think maybe that’s like the baseline definition of a sandwich maybe that’s what they’re trying to get out like merriam-webster’s was like you need this at well i don’t know for sure but maybe they’re like you know maybe you need this at minimum to be like considered as a sandwich yeah yeah but then yes can you tell me about what the term common sense means so i’ve heard that term before like a common sense definition of and i’ve heard that come up in legal cases but like uh i don’t know that i have common sense common sense ain’t so common probably have a t-shirt that says that [Laughter] um i would probably just define it as like what the general population like the majority of people did consider yeah like that’s how i would interpret it so yeah under your understanding of what a common sense definition of a sandwich is like take out the dictionary definition to me that is why alex that’s why i’m wearing this t-shirt right now that says a hot dog sandwich you can get it at mythical.com shout out merch gotta plug the merch i’m wearing it too but that’s why i’m wearing it is because to me the common sense definition of sandwich is simply just like leavened bread and filling equal sandwich and to me this is a common sense definition you know what i mean and so that’s where i’ve gotten tripped up i i’ve gotten more complicated my beliefs but that was yeah so i think like i would agree that a hot dog should be considered a sandwich actually and i think part of like yeah i think like the i think it was like the national hot dog council of like america they said they said like no like a hot dog is not a sandwich but when you’re looking at like the definition like anything you can think of for like a sandwich like it doesn’t necessarily have to be like two pieces of bread right because if you go to like subway or jersey mike’s it’s actually like a hoagie roll and that how do you like different is that not considered sandwich i mean i think anyone would say that is like nicole can i just not anyone though because what we found out historian give me one say ken albala historian we pose that same thing to him right ditto for a sausage sandwich served inside of a roll that’s not a hot dog uh he actually disagreed that a sub is a sandwich yes he simply said that it exists on a separate linear plane and that we simply don’t have the language to define accurately describe what that is my question is if i work out a jimmy john’s and in my contract it says you are not allowed to work at a sandwich shop five years later which is actually something that’s a real thing that was in a jimmy john’s in in the in the uh contracts that uh workers would sign and i go work out of nathan’s does that mean no according to your definition like now that a hot dog is a sandwich legally like now that means i can’t work at a nathan’s i can’t work out of cupid’s i can’t work at any hot dog shop that’s not fair they’re so different yeah they’re so different i think that might be uh well i don’t know for sure but sometimes when there’s really strict like non-compete provisions like that like sometimes they’re not always in force because like let’s see if you can only make a living like selling hot dogs then how can they prevent you from making a living right but i think uh that’s why we need a definition for sandwich actually i would say i would argue like that’s why we really need a more defined uh way to like identify sandwiches versus you know if you don’t think a hot dog should be included so it would you know be an important part of you know that hypothetical situation wait really really quick i think i know the origins alex do you know anything about jimmy john’s insane non-compete laws do you ever hear about that no i i don’t it was literally employees it was something like an eight-year non-compete where people making sandwiches for minimum wage were supposedly not allowed to work for any other sandwich chain and then it’s this one up against uh to a judge and he was like no this is not enforceable that’s bonkers yeah but i think i know the origin which we’re all from la and people on this podcast love when we get into insanely specific la details but bear with me there was a sandwich shop in westwood called sacos okay there is rumor the guys that workaholics work there there’s rumor that somebody stole the bread recipe from jimmy john’s and started sakos and if you remember they’ve read it was remarkably similar i have a conspiracy theory that that’s the reason jimmy john’s had a non-enforceable knockout wow yeah anyways that’s just a bit of a sidebar yeah that’s only history that makes sense to me yeah can you tell me the conclusion like how did this um how did this case of white city restaurants or how did the case of white city shopping center first pr restaurants end up yeah so i believe the court was basically like you know this is a burrito is not a sandwich yeah you shouldn’t be considered correct so yeah that’s like basically what they stated and you know you know i guess if you were to extrapolate that then they weren’t in breach of their contract by allowing uh kudova to open up near like in the vicinity of this other uh restaurant that seems like a win that seems that seems like a win for justice yeah i feel like justice was served there yeah the gavel went down like nobody ever the other so the other restaurant i believe is panera which i haven’t been to in about 15 years but like if i’m faced with a panera or a burrito those are not substitute goods for each other of course not right but that said hot dog you know in a sandwich those are at least closer so you think a hot dog is a substitute good for a tuna sandwich from panera bread with a side of tomato basil soup no hold on hold on however though like let’s talk about uh intent and what motivation people have to define sandwiches because different state laws define sandwiches differently based on you know effectively what the goal is right and so new york for instance defines a sandwich as they say cold and hot sandwiches of every kind that are prepared and ready to be eaten whether made on bread on bagels on rolls in pitas in wraps or otherwise regardless of the filling or number of layers so new york takes like a radical sandwich inclusionism and the reason why is that new york i believe taxes yeah yep and so like yeah you know that kind of states that there are a lot of different reasons that you would want to classify things as sandwiches but this is a miscarriage of justice right well i think like you’re right well i guess it comes down to the money right they really want to collect on the on taxes i’m guessing so they’ve created this super broad definition of sandwiches um which i think like at first i was super opposed to that idea as well i was like how can you include like a pita or like i don’t know like a taco or like this or that like as a sandwich but i started like digging into it and you get it gets kind of interesting i think the peta poses like a lot of like questions and problems like it’s only defining a sando attack yeah so i don’t know i’ve been thinking about it a little bit and it’s like you know is is the pita actually a sandwich but i mean do we do a disservice to like a pita by calling it a sandwich yeah we do a service to a taco by calling it a sandwich too and so that’s that’s where honestly the historical view of this all comes into play right is that the term sandwich it’s obviously an anglo term it’s something that you know people in america in britain in europe it was originally a british dude who joined the term his name you know sandwiches literally a place um and so it and it didn’t come about till 1762 but obviously people been throwing things in pitas for thousands of years you know that’s just existed right yeah so it’s weird to impose the term sandwich on that and then going farther if we’re talking about like a jian bing you know or i mean uh any lava rap it’s like these things are getting farther and farther away from sandwich but i think what new york did and this is where i was like two weeks ago before we started this this is where i was in my sandwich belief i would have told you that all of these are sandwiches because they all share one thing in common and this is just the way that i love them eat bread it’s not all leavened though because new york says that leavening doesn’t have to be in the equation they’re saying burritos are sandwiches if there are handheld foods meant to be eaten on the go right and so can that just be a definition of sandwich is that a way that we could define it a handheld food meant to be like a handheld star-trapped food which the starch wrapping helps you eat it on the go cause it doesn’t get your hands dirty huh right that could be a recognition of sandwich yeah so i’m actually like kind of in line with that because when you think about when you go all the way back to like how the like sandwich was invented it was like i think they were the earl of sandwich like playing a card game yeah yeah anything like that yeah and they needed something to eat but i’m sure like that was the reason like you know thousands of years ago when they had like flat bread or like you know things like that so things that came before the sandwich so i think like you have to look at like the purpose of what is a sandwich like what purpose does it serve and i think you’re right josh like it’s really about like having something convenient that you can eat on the go something handheld so i think like when you if you think about it in that context a lot of things fall under that now right we have like the burrito the hot dog you know the classic sandwich we have like hoagie rolls we have like tacos now we have all bagel sandwiches bagels like we have all all sorts of stuff so i think like you know do we call all of those things sandwiches or do we like scratch the name sandwich and come up with like a new term that’s like encompasses everything because you know you don’t want to do a disservice to these other foods that actually came like before the sandwich but i think it starts to include like a lot of things that people would you know be like no way can this be considered a sandwich and that’s where we get into the idea of common sense definition right because an ice cream cone could be a sandwich under this definition i mean it on the go you mean i’m mobbing around i’m looking sexy in my daisy dukes cream sandwiches a sandwich just because it’s called a sandwich i i don’t under this framework nicole i don’t know where i said it i don’t know where i said do not put words in my mouth i know but i think okay maybe maybe can i speak i’m so sorry you’ve been talking this whole time he doesn’t let me speak anymore maggie you so the art of sandwiching something does not mean that that thing is a sandwich i would agree with that yes okay i think sandwich as a verb is distinctly different from sandwiches exactly so if i am sandwiching a cookie and ice cream and a cookie and i eat it that is not the same as a ham sandwich i’m so sorry no i agree with you but you’re not the same but it’s a handheld start shoot on the go so is it a sandwich no no wait let’s let’s start now now that we can we have a place to start with new york’s radical standards inclusionism we can start making exceptions i would say something that can reasonably be considered a substantively nutritious meal i think that’s a a good starting point and you know it’ll knock out the desserts at least right exactly give me yeah give me an out of the box i love that we have a mediator we have legal counsel we’ve needed you for a long time um do you do friend divorces is that a thing like podcast well you said the d word already i don’t know god i think after today i’m gonna add that into my resume so yeah [Music] with hello fresh you get farm fresh pre-portioned ingredients and seasonal recipes delivered right to your doorstep skip trips to the grocery store and count on hellofresh to make home cooking easy fun and affordable that’s why it’s america’s number one meal kit they have over 55 weekly options and since their produce is delivered straight from the farm to your door in less than a week you can savor summer flavors right from home select meals from the taste of summer series that are sure 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number one meal kit i need a definition of okay so then then give me an out of the box something that i wouldn’t typically think of a sandwich as a sandwich according to your both of your definitions hit me with it i would say a nice buckwheat crepe filled with ham and gruyere cheese that’s a sandwich now under this well you agree no okay so i’m not 100 sure yeah so i think like under like certain definitions right that that applies but i think like this is the part we need to the nitty-gritty now we need to create like the exclusions of what you know i guess the masses want like do we want certain things to be considered a sandwich or not and should they or is there just no way around it because i think when you look at like what was kind of interesting was uh there’s this other case right saw retards vus where they go really in depth about like bread right because you would think like what’s like a key characteristic of a sandwich it’s it’s the bread it’s the bread yeah what is what is considered like bread actually because i think in that case they’re debating like is it the hard taco shell like bread because if it was considered bread they wouldn’t be taxed like yeah they wouldn’t have as much like tax or it would be zero percent tax or something like that but if it was considered like something else then it would be uh it would be taxed at like 10 or something when it was being like imported or exported so it’s like they go into the super in-depth conversation about bread and i think because people don’t really know there aren’t like legal like places to go look for definitions of like bread and this so they were looking at like cookbooks they had like expert witnesses like to talk about brilliant expert bread witness like a bacon also sabritus which is a division of frito-lay because i boy do i love their little puffed wheat snacks they’re like chicharrones arena man they’re good but i mean they straight up sued the united states like this is just sabritas against the empire wow which is incredible uh and yeah i think that’s fascinating because they tried to and this kind of speaks into uh a bit of like a cultural centrism right when you’re you can only view things through a certain lens because literally they tried to classify taco shells under quote other baker’s wares which had a higher tariff rate and so they didn’t even know how to define it they were like uh i don’t think this is bread but they’re not exactly chips even though they kind of taste like chips uh we’ll put it in other and so that’s where this are going down and eventually uh the court did just did side with sabritas and say that this does qualify as bread right and i believe the reason was because it’s it functions as bread right you use it to make a taco use it to make uh what is a substantively nutritious meal with a starch outside but that said there was another thing that wasn’t just taco shells in sabrita’s first u.s it was about munchos potato chips y’all ever had a muncho never have i ever had a munchkin i’ve never had a muncher you don’t need to have a muncher you’ve never seen them at like a 7-eleven they’re in the bright red bag and they look like they’re packaged in the 60s no they’re okay so they are a predecessor i believe to the pringle which uh are here alex maybe we can school you on some food law here yeah check this out yeah so pringles people consider consider potato chips but they are not legally defined as potato chips correct potato product they’re i believe a potato crisp they got away with processed potato crisps it’s a processed potato crisp because you’re not frying a whole slice of a potato like lays like kettle like whatever um you are pulverizing the potato and dehydrating it reformulating it with different binders and then putting it you know shaping it and frying it and that’s how munchos are made and so you look at like the taco shells so they say that well it’s the intent it’s the use that makes this bread but then in the case of munchos they were like no these are not chips because the process to make them differs so much from that of a normal potato chip and so that’s what trips me out is it doesn’t seem consistent right right and even within that case because they were when they were talking about like bread and like what qualifies as bread they were saying that like the frying process and the process of making like that hard taco shell doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not considered bread right so it is like kind of inconsistent and you know again like this is why we need to figure out you know what is the sandwich because we’re going to have these continue like inconsistent or like can these inconsistencies will like continue if you know we don’t have like you know one solid definition you know well it’s it’s difficult it’s hard but let’s get into the framework that you put forward in constructing the sandwich i can i can read it out for you i got i got to quote it yeah okay all right cool so that’s what you proposed and i don’t know if you still stand by this this is when you’re a young whippersnapper in law school just a hard charging bull you know you were summering with the the law firms is that what they call it summering yeah this summer yeah being a summer a summer associate yeah all right so you said a sandwich must consist of one slice of bread with filling placed upon it so open fish sandwich or two or more separate slices of bread with filling between the two pieces additionally single or multiple pieces of bread cannot be rolled together like a burrito wrap or taco the filling cannot be placed inside the pocket of bread like pita so under your framework burritos hot dogs gyros wraps and tacos would not qualify as a sandwich so you’re on record you’re on record sir yeah hot dog would not qualify for a sandwich but an open face sandwich closed face sandwich or burger would qualify as a sandwich so you were formerly at least no on a hot dog as a sandwich but yes on a burger is a sandwich yeah i felt like the burger was just too hard to get around and there’s just no way to like not call it a sandwich it’s like a i guess like a form of sandwich if you want to call it chat and yeah i’ve since this definition was created i’ve changed my tune on certain things like like the hot dog um and i think like it’s it’s hard to like consider like what is actually like a sandwich and it’s like yeah i keep saying that but it’s so like difficult it’s like this never-ending debate um and i have a hard time with like the open face sandwich actually now like i included that because other like legal authorities like states haven’t included included that as like open face sandwich you were swayed yeah i was like who am i to argue against these you know these lawyers these government authorities but no like i like the open face sandwich is generally not like a convenient method of eating right like a fork and knife you end up you’re molding it yeah yeah yeah and that’s if it’s not like soaked in gravy or like too heavy or something like that right so i don’t know i don’t really know if like if we look at like the purpose of like a sandwich and like or what we want to consider like a sandwich like it’s not convenient at all really and i don’t like that’s where things get tricky though because like let’s say you know a talk is a taco like a sandwich now because it is like a convenient method of eating but no it doesn’t it doesn’t have like a crease right like like a hoagie like people come down on like this crease argument like does it have to have like a crease maybe or does it need to be like it does it have to be like have a crease or does it have to be two slices of bread or does it need to be like one or the other can include both so um i think there’s like an argument to be made about like the crease in the sandwich and whether you know that’s like a qualifying part of being considered a sound the crease claw the sequel to the santa claus not starring tim allen saying weird stuff on twitter these days [Music] finding a resolute definition that everybody can agree on including the courts the people that seems impossible you can you can you can do what new york did but it’s still it’s a little unsettling right you know telling somebody that a burrito is a sandwich a buttered bagel is a sandwich that’s tough i can’t really yeah i can’t really you know agree with that so i mean efc double down that’s not a statement no that’s just a good meal but i’ll tell you what you know that gets your fingers all sticky there’s something comforting about what i alexander i asked you earlier about constitutional law how much do you know about originalism versus living constitutional oh good grief oh um a little i would say like if you were gonna go by like all the way back to england and like be like oh you know what’s the purpose of a sandwich we’re kind of going by like you know like originalism right taking a more conservative approach nicole buckle up this is gonna suck oh man yeah but if we think about like maybe like the cons as some people like think about the constitution that was written in a way to like evolve over time which is kind of crazy to me like how people back then like thought about like oh hundreds from here somehow it’ll be able to like adapt which is i mean it’s awesome like it’s like it it’s just like mind-blowing that people were like so smart like in general yeah that’s why we have amendments what is that why we have amendments well no but okay oh god i’m not about to draw a second amendment parallel am i i don’t do no but like literally i mean the term sandwich as used back in 1762 right you can view that as two slices of bread that’s what count alba our historian believed if you’re an originalist then you go that is the only thing that a sandwich can be but if you’re like say a living sandwich sandwich list then you believe that that definition can change and i see why it’s so much easier to be an originalist right yeah it’s a lot easier if you just say this is a hard and fast rule and then we can build off of there because right now we’re living in chaos we’re talking about ice cream cones cookie sandwiches yeah crepes and so i don’t know is there any sort of merit or is that a coward’s way out just to say a sandwich is two slices of bread that’s it well i think there is merit to it because yeah it does make it easier to define and then like in the legal context like everyone can follow it right like this is what it has to you would basically be able to be like he needs x y z boom like that’s a sandwich but like do we i don’t know like do we do a disservice to certain things that might you know fall under that like category i don’t so it’s like it’s uh it’s like an easy way to define it but i don’t know if it’s the right way to find it and then you paint yourself into other corners like we’re talking about with subway right yeah then we have to simply say subway does not sell sandwiches and there are even uh strange laws about prepared foods like i’ll never forget when subway’s five dollar foot long right deal was going on and subway had just added toasters because quiznos was breathing down their neck alright quiznos they made a great sandwich there’s no more quiznos uh i think they’re really struggling but they just there was a time when subway was threatened by quiznos because that’s great commercial but quiznos subway had just added toasters oh it was the first time they didn’t have toasters for forever subway toasters what’s a subway toaster they’ll ask if you want your sandwich toasted that didn’t exist so a toaster is a toasted subway no no i’m saying subway put like the physical appliance of a toaster in their stores oh i thought a toaster was like a steph curry’s commercial for the new subway toaster yeah i was like what are you talking about i’m toasting up from three and you no so subway they started taxing sandwiches that were toasted more because they were now in like a different category of prepared food hot foods there was now a hot food as opposed to cold food and cold food were meant to protect sandwiches this happened in uh new york 1971 hot dog tax where they taxed any hot meal that i believe was between 10 cents and a dollar at the time and like the only damn food that fell in that category were hot dogs and so even if you were to take you know this very strict originalist view you’re still going to end up with the same problems that you did before right you know where you’re arguing different types and i think this is interesting in the usda so we got a lot of different definitions of sandwiches from a lot of government bodies here right so usda gets into sandwich-like foods and sandwich type foods and quote non-traditional sandwiches what does that even mean so okay okay so real quick they the usda says uh it distinguishes between closed and open face sandwiches indicating that both are considered sandwiches it also describes burritos and fajitas as quote sandwich-like fajitas sandwich-like hamburgers and frankfurters as quote sandwich types and then here’s my favorite strombolis as quote not a traditional sandwich first of all plural of stromboli is stromboli that’s the plural okay you have you have one strombolo you got three stromboli congratulations but no i mean where do we does that help anybody like sandwich-like sandwich type proto sandwiches maybe um i don’t know because that’s like getting towards like more of that spectrum of a sandwich right and like defining things along the spectrum and i don’t know if that’s like super helpful i guess like if people were aware and like we’re always defining things like sandwich sandwich-like sandwich type then you know you would be able to write something like that like in a contract like sandwich type you know as you know defined by the usda or something like that i mean is that a potential fix though i mean could we just have a retirement a tier of sandwiches so say you’re negotiating a contract and you can say all right we accept sandwiches but not sandwich-like foods or sandwich type foods yeah yeah that would be that would work nicole what’s your favorite revelation i just like sandwiches are spectrum and some things fall into the spectrum but some things don’t and i don’t think a hot dog fits into it you think it’s outside of the full spectrum of sandwiches if a burrito is oh dog is but a hamburger can be on the spectrum if you’re a doe idea do you care what kind of pants the guy who shot you was wearing i don’t know i i was going to quote my cousin vinnie at some point because i had to um but really yeah you don’t believe it would fall anywhere near the spectrum i am a little you know the kinsley scale yeah yeah like uh one one one one-on-one wait the kids scale i believe is zero and six based on purely gay and purely yes is that what you’re talking i think so yeah yeah so some things i mean i mean i’m just thinking of a rainbow right now my brain has just alex you broke nicole you broke no no no no no you’re helping me sometimes you need to break down to build back up again so i’m thinking of a rainbow okay and then like like an earl of sandwich sandwich is like red okay yeah cause like that’s evergreen like we know that that’s that’s a sandwich but then you get into and it’s like subs hoagies and then it goes into like hamburgers like this is like you have to understand that this is a very this is like a revelation for me but hot dogs i don’t i don’t see it there hamburgers i do wait wait hold on pockets not right let’s talk about the hot dog let’s talk about the hot dog versus hamburger dichotomy because a lot of people yeah they would say like if you believe that a hot dog is not a sandwich you are also in my belief very likely to believe that a hamburger is not it’s not true i think most people i think i think a poll would reflect that and which is why i was shocked by alex’s why don’t you make a pipeline well i’m not right i’m doing a podcast right right now you go to pew research center you know you know what but no that’s why alex i was shocked and your initial i was shocked what an overstated thing to say you were i was appalled you were a little bit amused i was a little bit confused by the fact that under your framework a hot dog would not have been a sandwich but a hamburger would have because to me if we’re talking about like a contract right so panera bread i feel like a hot dog in a hamburger would be equally threatening competitors to a panera right i guess like i don’t totally agree that if you think like a hamburger is a sandwich then like a hot dog like if you’ve if you believe that one is not a sandwich then the other one is not also i think like for me the confusion about like the hot dog really comes down to like the hoagie right or like a subway sandwich like those types of rolls but if a subway moved in but if the subway hold on if the subway move next to a panera that’s an obvious threat yes and so if you don’t consider running like a sandwich you wouldn’t have to consider and then alex panera is suing you into the ground if you open it i disagree i’m saying like if you uh if you consider like a subway sandwich to be a sandwich then you should consider a hot dog to be a sandwich as well no because if i own a shopping center and if i want to have a panera and then i would have a nathan’s right next to it that’s not a big deal for me because i know that they’re not substitute goods for one one another which is why i’m changing my shirt wait but but nicole so okay so now oh i feel like i’m mediating now okay so alex just threw out that’s a bombshell right yes that if a subway sandwich is a sandwich then so is a hot dog no i agree they’re so phenotypically similar the fillings are so different but what if you add like a uh i mean think about a venezuelan hot dog right that’s a big old italian roll with the wiener stuff down there and a bunch of stuff on that yeah you believe that the sub no i don’t think someone’s sub it’s it’s just processed it’s not a sub it’s not a hoagie it’s not a grinder that’s a damn hotdog so the tube of meat the shape of the tube tube is iconic what about a frickin dell uh let the record show that nicole has do we have a stenographer let the record show that nicole has switched t-shirts and is now wearing a hot dog is not a sandwich maggie is like making photographer they got cool keyboards but i think like i mean but a hot dog has like something inside it’s like a filling right yeah and it has like that crease too same as like a a roll i guess like a subway sandwich has that single crease but there’s no way you could say like a subway sandwich with which also has the filling is like not a sandwich i guess but and then say like a hot dog is not a sandwich as well like it’s they’re they’re basically the same are you calling me absurd no no well this is where this is where i had a lot of like i had to do a lot of thinking look look look inside myself like is a hot dog really sandwich i did a lot of reflecting meditation you know that’s all i do yeah i like doing i’m like disagreeing with my my old definition basically and i think like i failed to see like you know i failed to recognize like a subway sandwich or like a jersey mike sub like as a sandwich but most people would consider not everyone but most people would consider that to be a sandwich as well i consider them to be a sandwich too but i think the tube of meat is so iconic that it deserves autonomy like it’s just it just doesn’t make sense why it wouldn’t well so this is a good segue alex brought up the like the national hot dog council which won i would love to be president yeah me too can we get tickets can we just be like coke and co-run the national house i don’t want to run it i just want to be a part of it yeah i just want like an ambassador or something but you mentioned that they don’t consider hot dogs to be a sandwich and i think the reason that’s why we’re talking to a business person who has personal stake in this right that if you call a hot dog a sandwich you are forsaking its cultural importance as a separate entity right yeah and i think you can maybe even draw parallels to something like a taco like i am wholly unwilling to call a taco a sandwich in which this goes against like what we talked about with the new york law right but i can’t bring myself as somebody who won grew up in southern california and god do i love mexican food and and having the knowledge that tortillas pre-date leaven bread by ten thousand years sure called the spark the miracle of nixtamalization to create corn to call that a sandwich is a disservice totally and if you’re working for the national hot dog council and you feel that strongly about hot dogs also i love that in this scenario i assume everyone’s working for the national hot dog council out on passion you know and not just like well i don’t know as a franchisee of wienerschnitzel and i ended up here uh but you’re sort of you know you’re denouncing it as as being important exactly same goes with a pita like as a pizza but listen if i’m in the middle east and i say give me a pita sandwich it’s if i say give me a pita the sandwich is implied because you’re cutting it open and you’re filling it well what do you mean the sandwich is implied i don’t think the sandwich is implied if with a pita yeah because you’re just ordering a pita like and like oh so you think that deserves its own its own iconicism as well they call it their own things right they they call you know uh uh lafa pita yeah it’s like pita pocket pita rap pita sandwich pita yeah pita with stuff and i mean that even you know uh like we talked about with with our historian ken the sandwich pre-dates the term sandwich they literally yeah this is what they literally called it in england uh shakespeare actually referenced it in his plays it was called wait for this branding nightmare meat and bread meat and bread so they called it you go to a vendor you go give me some meat and bread and they would give it to you right and so i mean maybe the term doesn’t need to be that fine but again in law it does alex right now if we are to create a new legal framework that actually is written into law that satisfies the most amount of people because we’re not going to end this debate for everybody but what we can hope to do is satisfy the highest amount of people alexia tocqueville tierney the majority it’s real whatever how do we define that how do you define it right now yeah so this is like a a nightmare because i think it’s so happy it’s really it really is yeah so i and i like going back to like the peta i think like they’re so like the pita is so complicated because like like it’s so complicated yeah if you want to say it’s like you know a sandwich or something that’s filled and if you want to go by like a definition of bread like or what is considered bread like i think a pita would fall under like you know a type of bread yes it’s leavened it’s basically it’s bread yeah yeah then it’s like well does it fall under a sandwich then because it gets it’s complicated but i think the the way to satisfy like the most people is maybe we toss out like the open face sandwich for now okay cool because it’s diversion it’s done because that that creates a lot of like issues as well because maybe if we get rid of like open face okay you know things that are supposed to be like open or like are presented open maybe we can you know exclude the taco then right and then uh exclude like i don’t know like uh a bagel that’s just a half bagel something on it so we can start excluding some things and i think that would you know make people happy and then uh i think like you know we have obviously something with two slices of bread is a sandwich right yeah that’s just like a common theme among all definition of sandwiches so we have to include that and it has to have some sort of filling now what we want to consider filling like is just like us like butter good enough like i think we have to maybe include like the that has to be like a substantial meal substantially maybe yeah and that can be defined it you can figure that out via like a common sense definition of what substantial meal means right like that’s that’s exactly yeah okay yeah so we’re passing i’m tracking so far this is working for me and i think we have to try and exclude things like a burrito or rap like things that are like enclosed maybe like maybe we want to take those things and exclude them from being considered a sandwich and then that should alleviate some of those concerns but i guess if you like mash like a roll like hard enough it becomes like enclosed but it’s you know it’s meant to happen like all the pictures show it like as open you know you could see like toppings on the side so whereas like in a burrito you you’re not gonna see the toppings on like the side of it like it’s closed completely you know and like an empanadas like well i don’t want to make things more complicated yeah empanada exclusionary role yeah yeah so like those maybe i think like if we’re if we can come to consensus like on those three things at least like you know that’s like a really good framework for defining a sandwich and then maybe we’ll have to like exclude some more things like when we can think of them but um yeah i think things that are like you know traditionally flat and you roll wrap it or roll it that should be excluded okay and things that are like completely closed like the burrito let’s take those out okay and then crepes take out the open face yeah so like you never really have the crepes yeah so that one is out now too and like you know i think like we have now we’re left with like you know the roll like a hoagie roll or like you know some kind of bread roll like french bread or something and then uh you know like the traditional like slices of bread i think do you guys agree or where do you think we stand now here’s the thing i want to let’s just talk about the legal system in general we’re searching nicole you’re not illegal who do you work for no but like we want a simple cut and dry one i did agree with all of those i agreed with the majority of what you said my mind was creating exceptions and all this yeah um but like you said it’s it is a process right and that’s how you create like precedent from cases due process right because they’ve the usda i mean they did their damnedest us customs to define what these you know uh imports were yeah and then you get cases like sabritas versus the us that shows there are exceptions so i mean i think we just have to view this as one i think that’s a great framework set out but we also have to accept that there are going to be exclusions from the rule they’re going to be aberrations there’s going to be a new food that’s invented i mean ken was talking about how they make a sort of proto hot dog in uh in germany by creating a fully enclosed bread cone and just and so you know you understand that the food is this like wide vast beautiful world new things are going to come up but i think if you have a framework like alex set out that’s really helpful you know and so that’s what we’re doing right now with the hot dog and so i mean alex final answer is a hot dog a sandwich i i’m gonna have to go with yes it is a sandwich i agree under this newly proposed definition it would still be considered a sandwich i fully agree nicole you’re out i don’t agree i’m sorry i don’t agree thank you for your that’s okay thank you for your lovely uh conversation but i’m sorry alex alex i’d like to sue nicole for libel i’d like to counter sue josh for libel i’m going to counter sue that counter suit i want to counter i stepped on my toe one day um you stepped on my toe more than once uh alex man thank you so much for this conversation uh this is this is my favorite one so far i feel like i have now more ammunition for all the people that come at me online about my bad opinions and also i know that we have legal counsel on retainer yeah on retainers uh alex i appreciate it man you got any uh closing statements um no i mean like thank you guys for having me this was great i uh you know it led to a lot of introspection i said you know go against what i pre what i previously believed actually so i think like it’s really opened my mind to the world of sandwiches and can’t wait to you know see where this goes from here me and timothy are you saying we out lawyered you um well you know i was starting to change my mind like as time was going on but you know i’m open to that too you guys can outlaw me it’s totally fine with me you guys are the authorities on food you know i love you know i love all your hot takes on food so you know i’ll go with it yeah wait hold on wait do you want us to shout out ballard spar would they would they think that’s funny or would they like not want that oh i would say like gen they seem pretty pumped about this actually and they think it’s pretty funny so yeah we could give a shout out to a ballard’s bar llp where uh you know i’m a mergers and acquisitions attorney in the business transactions department we do a lot of like emerging company venture capital work as well we have a big media law practice as well so all like related to corporate work so yeah it’s been uh you know ballard’s far thank you guys for letting me do this really happy to be representing you shout out ballard spa ballard’s bar has always been me and nicole’s favorite law firm in the greater saint paul minneapolis area that’s right that’s where y’all are right well we’re actually a national firm in the headquarters in philadelphia and we have 15 offices including los angeles so yeah but i’m in the minneapolis office nice uh we have a strong contingent of attorneys here in minneapolis heck yeah we’re gonna stop by the la office and just bring hot dogs and they’re gonna be like what the hell is wrong with you please leave a nice building all right thanks again alex thanks all right thank you jason nicole words cannot express how meaningful that conversation was to me josh i got to tell you something you’re sweaty again what happened i thought i wouldn’t okay so i’ll tell you why i’ve been so sweaty it’s because i’ve been building this series up in my mind for so long yeah the passion just coming out of your passion yeah cause i i don’t know this is it’s the namesake debate and i wanted to treat it very seriously and i hope that people understand that we are super serious i mean you and i can only get so serious before we start uh just screaming my cousin vinnie lines of mergers and acquisitions lawyer in minnesota you know what i mean um but this was really clarifying to me in a way right not to me it was the opposite it was it was um what’s the opposite of clarifying obviously i was so obfuscated i’m i’m thoroughly off for skateboarding where do you stand now alex is gone where do you stand you’re talking about rainbows and spectrums i think is not a sandwich you into like hot dog synesthesia yeah like how kanye sees me anesthesia i have a very specific form can’t talk about it on the podcast but like i just can’t um i just can’t wrap my head around the fact that a hot dog is a sandwich he tried and i just now i’m just rebelling yeah i’ll leave i don’t want the government in my hot dogs i don’t want philosophy in my hot dogs i don’t want history in my hot dogs i want none of that i don’t care anymore i’m rebelling hot dog is not a sandwich so i came away from that he posited that if you believe a subway sandwich a hoagie is a sandwich you must believe a hot dog is a sandwich i agree with that and that has been one of my original stances you firmly disagree i do but it seems like there’s not a lot of logic in the disagreement if that makes sense right if you’re saying that’s just me however that’s why i’m really really glad next week we’re talking to morgan walsh business person doug shop owner uh cupid’s hot dogs out in the valley that’s right i feel like i’m setting up for the big thing we’ve been missing here is emotion right that’s true history philosophy law we need some actual pathos in this we need some emotion about like hey here’s why a hot dog is i need someone who makes money off of hot dogs yeah tell me if a hot dog is awesome the livelihood is tethered too that’s right that’s right and so i right now i am firmly more than ever a hot dog as a sandwich and i think that needs to be written into law but also i see the cracks i can see where the cracks open up right if life was based purely on logic we would all just be blobs and the law changes all the time right and philosophers never give you straight answers that’s right historians i don’t know they just kind of they just kind of re-read stuff that other people did oh man well this is whoo i’m still sweating all right uh y’all know it wouldn’t be a hot dog as a sandwich without hearing from you so it’s time for opinions are like casseroles [Music] first up we got at darthwrath24 the best hot dog is your average whatever store brand good old reliable roasted over a campfire but not for too long mustard ketchup maybe sauerkraut to make an interesting done campfire dog sounds good i love campfire dogs i’ve never had one i don’t know how i’ve missed i’ve missed that have you never had a campfire dog i don’t and i spent plenty of time in the poo canoes am i at my nana’s lake house when i was like a small kid yeah i had a great time with lake wall and pop back in the pika news um and we had campfires going we’d make s’mores all the time and somehow never roasted a hot dog over purely wild fire well honey it sounds good i love you i love a good grilled hot dog the casing gets all crackly and burnt but the hot dog still stays kind of cold it’s it’s just a temperature danger zone 100 percent it’s like tuna tataki but it’s a nice sear outside but it’s so fun there’s nothing like roasting weenies over a fire have you done s’mores i’ve known i do s’mores all the time not only that i’ve cooked i’ve like cooked uh really nice meals over campfires i’ll like make a jerry rigged grill sure and all that you wrap everything in foil bury the coals do that i just like i don’t know now all i want to do is just roast a hot dog over and open fire i want you guys to see come over to the campsite this sounds good darth we’re coming camping with you good news farva318 says a hot dog bun is best left untoasted while you would normally want the textural difference between the bun and the dog toasting the bun tends to take away its sweetness i hundred percent agree i love an untoasted burger i’m not a burger bun a hot dog bun burger buns i do like toasted i agree with that but hot dog bun leave it soft leave it squishy leave it delicious i agree entirely we were actually talking about this yesterday yeah i think a hot dog can get ruined with a toasted bun especially people get crunchy don’t that and the reason you want in my opinion a toasted bun with a burger is that there is there are exogenous juices exogenous exogenous means but there are exogenous juices in a burger right that you need some protection from a hot dog it’s so processed that the juiciness stays on the inside exogenous relating to or developing from external factors boom exogenous juices in a burger i mean it’s not exogenous because you’re actively putting the juices on the burger and the burger has the juices sounds sexy but no i agree i like steamed hot dog buns i never thought about it taking away from the sweetness but i agree with that because when it’s uh just kind of steamed from the hot dog sweat then you get like this almost cakey quality that’s why i love hot dogs cooked in dirty water because it makes the bun even softer i’m not gonna agree with that but uh give me the dirty water dogs i just want to think of consummate from the hot dog just give me a cup that’s so disgusting all right all right at irc lee 2000 the only way to eat a hot dog is with mac and cheese whether you eat mac and cheese on the side or cut the hot dog up in the mac and cheese if you eat a hot dog all by itself with any other side the mac and cheese you are hot dogging incorrectly you know it’s funny they spelled hot dogging as a verb with two words technically it’s one shout out scrabble um do you did you ever eat hot dogs and mac and cheese of course we actually did a whole video about it together if you remember josh josh’s memory like deletes like a floppy disk too much content remember anything we do craft mac and cheese i’m remembering the name of my hebrew nationals uh and uh ketchup uh i yeah i absolutely love you cut up the hot dog super national because you want the beefy quality yeah beef beef if you’re using like a store-bought box mac and cheese then like it doesn’t taste particularly cheesy it’s kind of just creamy and muted totally yeah the beef yeah that was great it’s comfortable yeah i love that yeah that muted flavor when you get the beefy dogs and and this i will put some ketchup maybe a little sriracha on there yeah huge i haven’t had it in a long time but like that’s that sounds like a hug a mouth hug one more let’s do one more uh golden cheesy says the chili dog is the next evolution what oh chili spelt c-h-i-l-l-y that’s right a cold hot dog you thought the hot ones had infinite pliability nah um the idea of just straight up eating a cold hot dog can’t do it yeah i do a lot of things can’t do that why not you’d eat cold bologna you’d eat bologna both hot and cold why not hot dog hot dogs just little bitty bologna it’s the shape yeah you don’t like who’s you up fallacy it’s there’s a wetness that i just can’t get around you try it off on some paper towels why would i if i’m gonna do that extra step why don’t i just put it in the microwave for like seven seconds actually i do that yeah i am the same way i can’t stomach cold hot dogs for some reason and i understand that it’s a stable and for some reason it’s a menthol block can’t do it i might try it uh with you i have a buddy that’s from guam and he eats uh troubled spam yeah i don’t know why i said it was really weird and cheesy i’m not gonna like come to your you’re gonna go to their freaking apartment i’m guessing it’s an apartment i don’t know well i don’t know why i have a nice home in tulsa oklahoma i have a big old ranch style house um i think we have a dingy apartment in chicago just like eating cold hot dogs i don’t know they could be in a mcmansion in rancho cucumber we don’t want to know where they’re going we don’t know whether they’re making a mansion mcmansion is like when you build a giant development with these giant mansions but they all look the same mcdonald’s franchise but mansions like they’re all just the same you know i mean it’s like creepy can we build and make a picture listen i know they like suck they’re bad or whatever i want to live in a mcmansion i just want a pool let’s find a place i want my hot dog’s warm and i want to just make it do it in nevada yeah what are you doing henderson nevada baby and also hey don’t forget to go vote your conscience support your own hot dog values by going to mythical.com checking out our a hot dog is a sandwich or a hot dog is not a sandwich campaign t-shirts uh nicole and i are really stoked on these we helped on the designs yeah we just said yes or no yeah pretty much yeah we have an incredible design team and uh the t-shirts are incredible and we’re excited to be donating a portion of the proceeds to no kid hungry a non-profit working to solve problems of hunger and poverty in the united states and around the world choose your side and let the whole world know shirts available for a limited time at mythical.com and we’ve only got a couple episodes left for this series and we want you to be a part of the finale coming up on july 31st we’ll be taking our podcast to the people so if you live in the la area or you got a full tank of gas and really feel like driving or like you got a southwest points we want to invite you to come see us at smorgasburg la on july 31st there will be podcasting great food a couple other fun surprises you really don’t want to miss it i’m super stoked so stay tuned on instagram at mythical kitchen for all the details i’m so excited and i just can’t hide it i’m about to go to school [Laughter] and on that embarrassing note thank you for listening to a hot dog’s sandwich if you want to be featured on opinions or like casseroles you can hit us up on twitter at mythicalchef or in handy’s auto with the opinion casserole for more mythical kitchen check us out on youtube where we launch new videos every week and of course if you want to share pictures of your dishes hit us up on instagram at mythical kitchen and stay tuned next week when we speak to a real life hot dog business person on a hot dog as a sandwich or is it was i supposed to do that with you i don’t know sorry we’ll see you next time [Music] you