EB 108: Is It Ever OK to Lie? ft Lizzie

(upbeat electronic music) – Welcome to Ear Biscuits, I’m Rhett. – And I’m Link, joining us at the round table of dim lighting this week is Mythical crew member Lizzie, we are gonna be discussing the topic, when is it okay to lie? Is it okay to lie? – Ever, is it ever okay to lie? – Is it ever okay to lie? Fibbing. – Thank you for all of you Mythical beasts who are contributing to the conversation via your questions and comments. It’s a big conversation that we’re excited to have. – It’s a thicket that we jump into, but first, we want to do a little catching up with you guys, shoot the breeze a little bit, shoot a little bit of that Ear Biscuit breeze. You know how you’re baking up a biscuit and sometimes it just wafts through the house? Do biscuits happen at your house? Ha, they happen at my house about every Saturday, my brother. – You eat biscuits every Saturday? – I would say average 1.5 Saturdays, every– – Per what, month? – Per two. – Well, you could probably, there’s another way, that would be three out of four would be another way to say that, so if like– – I don’t know that. – Three Saturdays out of a month you have biscuits. – Yeah, yeah. – 1.5 out of two. – 1.5 out of two. – Well, I’d already said 1.5, so I reduced the fraction, my brother. – You didn’t take fractions. – Fractions wasn’t a class, but I know when a biscuit smells good, and that’s what we’re doing. – I love biscuits, but no, we don’t, we tend not to have biscuits at the house because I don’t think they’re good for you. They’re good for your soul, but they’re not good for your heart. – Well, the ones out of a can are really good for you. – Yeah, the Pillsbury ones that pop out when you twist the can? Well, you probably never have twisted the can before. – I’m not gonna mention the brand, but yeah, twist that can and they pop out. Sometimes they pop out, and I say, “Whoop, that was a cinnamon roll.” – Well, you– – I’m still gonna put eggs in it. – Usually it says it, usually it indicates it on the package, I know you don’t cook a lot, but typically it says it on the package, what’s inside. – I know that you use a spoon to pop it. Oh, a cinnamon roll came out, milestone, our boys, Lock and Lincoln, just hit a milestone, which means we as fathers hit a milestone, they played their, the final game of their season of basketball together, first season of basketball, recreation league basketball together. – That’s exciting season, especially exciting game. – ‘Cause what happened, well, spoiler alert, they lost the game. But Lock had 37 points. – Yeah (laughs). – Which is pretty amazing, he was pulling up the slack for reasons that I’ll get into, I think. It was first quarter, it was like, the first few minutes of the game, right? Like, I would say there was probably six possessions when this happened, that’s, in my memory, how it happened. – It was early, I know you don’t understand fractions, but there were halves, not quarters. The NBA, our kids are not in the NBA, just in case you didn’t know that, they’re just playing recreation basketball. – That is painfully true. – They don’t even stop the clock when things, they didn’t even stop the clock when what you’re about to describe happened. – And when did it happen, because it happened about how many, it, in my mind it was six possessions in the game. – Yeah, well, I mean, am I filing a police report? Because I don’t– – I’m just making the point, the very early– – I don’t believe there was any criminal activity, what are you trying to say? – No, I’m just saying, very early in the game. – Are you taping this? – Not a lot of, I am recording this. – Am I being recorded? – Yes, this is being– – Do you have on a wire? – No, it’s being recorded for quality assurance purposes only, it’s not being distributed in any way. – What if you had– – But I will hold it against you. – What if you had on a wire, right now? Like, what if– – That would be stupid. – What if you were in– – That would be redundant. – What if we were, you were, like, I was being investigated and they had gotten to you, and the way that they were doing it was putting a wire on you while we made a podcast that was public? – I would tell the cops, hey, guys– – You don’t need this wire. – Just save your batteries at this point. – We have a microphone. – Don’t, don’t burn the wire during the podcast, because it’s being recorded in another fashion. – Is that (mumbles), you do know the FBI, burn the wire, you know the term “burn the wire”? – Alright, you got me, I’m– – Hang on. – I’m wired. (both laugh) I’m currently being patted down on the chest by Rhett, for those of you who are only listening. – What are you trying, thinking you’re gonna find out about me? – So very– – I tell you everything, man, I don’t lie. – Yeah, right, very early in the basketball match. – Oh, God, this is devolving so fast (laughs). – Lincoln’s under the basket, dribbling, and I notice there was one guy who’s huge, like, I mean, Lock has hit a growth spurt and he’s a lot taller than Lincoln, who’s a little bit over a year younger than him. But this guy was at least a year older than Lock– – He’s in high school. – And a head taller than Lock. – He’s, he’s your size, this guy weighs as much as you do. – So Lincoln, like, pump faked under the basket– – Hold on, hold on, you’re cutting way too early to this, you just said Lincoln was under the basket, dribbling. No, no, no, no, that is not what happened. My friend, this was a fast break, you blocked all this out. – It’s a fast break, yeah, I remember that. – Lincoln was, some people will call it cherry picking, that’s when you didn’t quite get back on defense. (Link laughs) And you’re under your own basket in a position to score. – No, he wasn’t, he was at mid court, he was halfway back to play defense. – He was halfway back, and then they stole the ball, Lock gets the ball, Lock’s dribbling up the court– – And Lincoln’s running a fast break. – He sees Lincoln, Lincoln is wide open under the basket, rocket pass right to Lincoln, that’s where it, now you can pick up where you, where, ’cause. – And this huge giant of a man, almost not, I mean, I don’t, he’s not a boy. He was so much bigger than anyone else on the– – He’s on the line between a man and a boy. – I thought he could have been a coach. It was like, why is that coach playing? – Yeah, player coach. – Lincoln pump fakes, the guy– – [Rhett] Goes for it. – Hook, line, and sinker jumps in the air, and then Lincoln goes up the second time a little too early, and meets nothing but this guy falling down on him. They crumple to the ground, and the guy rolls off of him, and immediately Lincoln rolls over and he’s like– – His hand was, like, shaking. – Shaking a little bit, and I was like, I mean, Christy has suffered a concussion a year ago, and we’re very paranoid about anyone hitting their head because of all that she’s been through. – That’s why he wears a football helmet during the basketball game. (both laugh) I mean, he’s the only one doing that. – Christy was like, “Did he hit his head?” And I was like, “I think he broke his arm, bad.” Like, that’s what I was thinking, but I didn’t say anything, I thought his forearm was, like, snapped underneath this kid, but then he rolls over and he’s like, he’s shaking a little bit, and then I was, like, I’m thinking, I’m not going over there, because you don’t, a parent doesn’t immediately, you should, as a parent you shouldn’t immediately run over. – You don’t want to be that parent. – The ref and the coaches from both teams– – There’s a whole system involved, right. – Ran over there, so the parents are supposed to keep their distance, and say, you know what, let’s not incite panic here in the child, let’s just let him deal with it. So I’m sitting on the bleachers with Christy, and like, she’s kind of panicking, and I’m like, “He didn’t hit his head, I think it’s his arm,” and it’s like, it was very surreal. This had never happened to me before, having a child who seems to be injured. And then after awhile he didn’t get up, and then Christy’s like, “I think you need to go over there.” Now, I don’t know, would you have gone over there earlier than I did, did I do something wrong by waiting? – No, I always minimize these situations. – [Link] Yeah, I minimized– – And I was minimizing that situation, I was like, oh, he’ll get, I always err on the side of– – And when I went– – Don’t get up. – Even when I went up, I couldn’t see any bones sticking out, that’s really what I was afraid of, that’s why I, part of why I didn’t go over there. – You were afraid for yourself. – I don’t want to see any bones sticking out of, no, that’s not why, maybe subconsciously, but consciously I wanted to respect the process. I go over there, there’s no signs of anything really bad, he’s holding, he says his wrist hurts, it’s like, okay, it’s maybe broken, but then they could move it, they got him to move it and make a fist and I’m like, alright, he can move all his fingers and move his wrist, it’s just sprained really badly, and he goes and sits on the bench, and then we watch some more of the game while the coaches talk to him and they ice it. I go over there and the coach is like, “I think he’s pretty shaken up, “you might need to take him home “and put some ice on it, and you might need “to see a professional.” – Yeah. – And by that, I took him to mean an NBA player. – Right (laughs), yeah, you need to go– – ‘Cause I was like, do you know any personally, because– – Yeah, yeah, right, he’ll be inspired– – A, that’s pretty cool, B, I’d love their, for them to help. – [Rhett] Yeah. – So we take it, the next morning we took him to the doctor, and lo and behold, he’d broken his wrist in two places. – There’s a lot of bones in there. – And Lincoln said it wasn’t from his wrist hitting the ground or his arm jamming against the ground, it was the guy hyperextending his hand, when he landed on his hand, it hyperextended his hand backwards, like if you were to take your fingers and pull them back to touch the top of your forearm, and somehow that broke it– – Snapped some stuff. – Yeah, like, but the edge, I don’t know– – But no ligaments, it was– – No ligaments, it was just, he’s in a cast now, he’s starting school with a cast on his wrist– – Wait, I know, Christy was talking about, she was, you know, she was like, “Oh, you know, he’s starting,” ’cause this is all our kids are going from basically being homeschooled and doing some, some light charter school to school, and– – Public school. – And they’re all a little apprehensive about this, some more than others, but I know that Christy was like, “Oh, man, now he’s–” – He’s gonna be the kid– – [Both] With the cast. – I’m like, that’s great. – Yeah, but I was totally like, yeah, he’s gonna be the kid with the cast, he’s the kid who’s got something to talk about. You’ve gotta, you’ve gotta take, I mean, you’ve gotta, that’s an opportunity, he’s got something, he’s got something people can, do people still sign casts, is that a thing? – Lincoln, I looked at his cast, he comes home, he’s got a bright lime green cast, and there’s, he’s already had people signing it, and I look, and right where his watch would be, in big bold letters, it said, “don’t give up,” with a thumbs up, and I’m like, looking at the cast, I’m like, “Oh, that’s cool, you got a lot “of people to sign your cast, who wrote that, “‘don’t give up,’ thumbs up?” And he’s like, “Me.” (both laugh) I didn’t, and I almost said it. – Oh, man, well, he’s got a great attitude. – I bit my tongue, I wasn’t truthful, as we’ll get, so filter this conversation through the one we have with Lizzie, if I should have said something– – [Rhett] Don’t give up. – But what I was thinking was, well, you don’t write on your own cast, son, but I couldn’t fault him, ’cause he drew a thumbs up and everything, don’t give up, what time is it? Time to not give up. (both laugh) And you know what? So far he hasn’t given up– – [Rhett] He hasn’t given up, well, that’s ’cause– – But the cast is still on, I take it giving up means, don’t give up on making up a great story every time someone at my new school asks me what happened, I think is what it really means. – You know what, now the thing that you’ve really got to worry about in these situations when you got something that then leads to a story, is you’ve got to have the details down. So you’re a good story teller, I know he may have inherited that, but I don’t know if you’ve given him the tools yet, because you’ve got, he’s gotta use terms like, sick head fake, you know, he’s gotta– – Oh, I don’t even think it’s related to basketball. – [Rhett] Oh. – I think it’s related to like, an expedition in the Amazon. – Okay, well, that’s in direct contradiction to everything that we’re about to talk about in this podcast, in whether or not it’s okay to lie. Okay, you can give him the fault story that he can give to some people, but I’m saying this sensationalized, slightly exaggerated sick head fake story that will get him a lot of street cred, that’s all I’m saying, this is an opportunity, he needs to take advantage of it, you need to give him the tools, the vocab tools. – And then he can write that on his cast. – He can write the story– – And read it verbatim. Well, don’t give up on this podcast as we take a moment to show some love to our sponsors. – That’s right, and we want to let you know about the all new Mythical store, that’s right, RhettandLink.com/store is now mythical.store, that’s so easy to remember. – That’s a website, mythical.store– – You can do that now, you can do .store. – Brand new store with brand new, good Mythical logo merch, including this fricking coffee mug that debuted on The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon, we got, we asked him to make a big deal out of our new coffee mugs, ’cause we told him– – Look at that new logo. – You can’t have a good show without a good mug. You can have a good mug without a good show, people do that all the time. – Look at that logo, Link, look at how that logo– – [Link] It’s on a shirt. – Shows up on a shirt, look it, and not just that shirt, there’s other shirts, but that’s what I’m holding up. Look at how this logo shows up on a hoodie, we got a gray hoodie with the orange– – [Link] Turn it around. – And look at that, it’s also, bam, on the back, double logo, you got logo on the front, logo on the back. – We also have good Mythical summer collection merch, so go over there and get that. The summer days are waning, guys, but technically it is summer, so get your good Mythical summer merch and you’re good Mythical summer towels– – That’s a great way to identify fellow Mythical beasts out on the lake or the beach. – Mythical.store. – And now, onto the Biscuit. (upbeat electronic music) – So here we are with Lizzie, thank you for joining us. – Oh, you’re welcome, any time. – Is that a lie, are you already lying? – Probably. – Any time we can ask you to show up on Ear Biscuits, and you’ll do it? – Actually, yeah, I like doing this. – Did you feel like you had a choice? – No. (group laughs) – Well, you see, see that’s right there– – That’s not true, yes, yes, I did, yes, I did, I could have said no, I wanted to be here. – But when it’s, when an answer or a retort is a little awkward or self incriminating, then you, you can believe that it’s not a lie. So right off the bat, that’s what I’m offering– – Disarming. – To this conversation, it’s like, well, you don’t have anything to gain by saying what you just said. – [Lizzie] Right. – You have a lot to lose. – [Lizzie] Sure. – Matter of fact, you’re fired. – Bye. – So it seems like what you’re saying is that it’s all about positioning, and just, you know, leveraging for your own benefit, which– – I’m saying if you assume that people are lying, then you can have a good, good reason to believe that they’re not, and that you’re wrong, if what they said doesn’t benefit them in any way, that’s all I’m really saying. – [Lizzie] Well– – You’re saying that it’s ultimately a manipulation. – Yeah, that’s pretty accurate. But, I mean, there’s the other thing of, you know, if somebody says, “I’m not lying,” and then follows it up with something else, they’re, like, almost certainly lying, that’s a clue, you can usually look for. – It’s like saying, “I’m not a racist.” – Right, you probably are. – So okay– – Rhett. – This, let’s, we’re not talking about that, that’ll be another podcast. – If you’re a racist? – No, just maybe racism in general, man. – Oh, oh, okay, that’s better. – Okay, um, but I’m very excited about this conversation because what we’re trying to do, and I think this is the first of its type on Ear Biscuits, is we’re trying to have a conversation in the context of community, CCC, like Central Carolina Community College. – I love that place, it was in between Buoy’s Creek and Lillington, and we would drive past– – It hopefully still is there. – I didn’t attend it, but– – Lots of fine people did, lots of great degrees– – I feel like I learned a lot just going past that community college. – It’s a two year school, I’m sure they’re doing great. Now listen, the thing that excites me is that we’re gonna have a conversation about, is it ever okay to lie, but we’re not just gonna have a conversation, the three of us, not just the two of us, it’s not just the three of us, it is the wider community of Mythical beasts. So, I don’t know, this is definitely an experimental thing, and it’s not like, oh, going through fan questions is some monumental, innovative thing and we’re the only people to ever do it, but I think that what we’ve learned over the years in making content for the Mythical beasts is that this isn’t just this, we’ve talked about this a million times, this is not a one way relationship where we create entertainment and they just consume it. This is, there’s a relationship and there’s a back and forth, and a lot of that conversation may kind of pivot around the content that we’ve put out there, but through the devices of social media and, I guess that’s the way that we talk to most people, sometimes in person. This is an ongoing conversation, usually about the things we’re creating, but because we talk about and have the opportunity to talk about a lot of different things on Ear Biscuits, we’re like, what if we talked about things that people actually, it has nothing at all to do with entertainment, but it’s just stuff that people think about in their lives, in their everyday experience, and can we, as a community, kind of arrive at something. I’m not saying at the end of this podcast that we’re gonna know that what the Mythical beast herd rules are about lying– – Well, we’ve got a pretty good selection. – We will have taken a step towards maybe helping all of us understand a little bit better about this particular concept. – Well, and I just want to hear funny stories about people who’ve lied. – Well, that’s what I was saying. – That’s what I’m here for. – That whole thing was dishonest, the whole intro was dishonest and you just called it out. – You’re a liar, Rhett. So Lizzie, we asked you to, to cull some input from Mythical beasts about lying. – Yeah, I got some very interesting responses. – You got some little white lies? – [Lizzie] Mm-hmm. – Some big, hairy lies. – Sure. – All types of stuff, but I think before you present what you’ve found, I want to hear that the three of us are willing to talk about when we’ve lied, because, I mean, we joked about it some, but we’ve all lied in one form or another. – Oh, yeah. – And we’ve got, we’ve got to be a part of this, we’re not just gonna put it on the tweets and Facebook comments that you’re gonna read, right? – [Lizzie] Yes. – I would go as far as to say that I’m not just a liar. (Lizzie laughs) I actually have a disposition towards dishonesty in many different interactions, most of them inconsequential, as most people would consider them. What I mean is that my problem with honesty is not a, I have, like, a deep moral flaw and I cheat on my taxes, and I’m doing these things that most people would consider, like, immoral. It’s more, I have a tendency to just kind of– – Well– – Socially flatter people in a– – Give me an example. – Laughing at something that’s not funny, that’s dishonest, I do it all the time, with you, especially. (group laughs) – That’s not true. – No, no, I’m saying– – Not with me, man. – No, I’m not talking about, you know, in between the two of us, I’m much– – You don’t laugh at all. – I was joking, I’m much worse about this, but if me and you– – No, you weren’t joking about laughing at other people’s jokes though, right? – No, no, I’m saying that between you and me– – You don’t laugh. – No– – You only laugh honestly. – No, no, no, I’m saying if me and you are hanging out with someone, especially with someone we don’t really know that well, and they say a joke that’s bad or they say something like, I’m much more likely to laugh at, laugh for them to make them feel, and you’re much more likely to be honest, and if it wasn’t funny, to not laugh. That’s, like, I feel that personally that’s a flaw of mine. – But if I say the joke. – It’s always funny if you say it, Link. – Well, it’s always funny, yes, but if it wasn’t, you wouldn’t laugh. – Because we have a, we’ve got a comedy bit going here, I can’t, you know, I’m saying, it’s like, I’m not laughing at you for comedic effects. (Link laughs) That’s different, that’s a professional relationship. – That was fake– – Now I’m worried– – No, that was real. – Have I ever said a joke where you were like, that’s terrible, and then you laughed at it? Yeah, definitely, right? – Well, if you do it in that order, it doesn’t work. If you say that joke was terrible, (laughs), then you kind of know that the laugh is disingenuous. – Now I don’t know. – I’m just saying, I have the disposition socially to be dishonest, most people would think that it was common courtesy, but, and I don’t want to get into this now because I’ve actually been thinking, I’ve been thinking about this, but– – Let’s just take that as an example. – That’s me, in a nutshell with my, nutshell, with my dishonesty, I’m still suffering, sorry, my throat’s still suffering. (Lizzie laughs) – So I’m prepared to jump in and talk about when I’ve lied, but, and I hope you are, as well. – I am, I, well, ’cause when you guys asked me to do this podcast and you said, “Are you comfortable sharing a story “about when you’ve lied?” I was like, “Sure,” and then I started thinking back on– – In a vacuum. – [Lizzie] Right. – Before you thought of all the specifics. – No, I don’t mind, I started thinking it through, and I was like, I had a similar epiphany to you, which is that I realized, I think I just accidentally lie a lot, or lie to keep the status quo, or, you know, not be quote unquote rude about something, but it was more that when I was thinking back on any life experiences where I lied, I couldn’t find a single one where I had lied and it had turned out well. So even if was something little, like the story that I can share today was not a big or serious thing, but it immediately turned around and bit me in the butt, almost literally, which you’ll find out about. – Oh. – Oh, that’s a teaser if I’ve ever heard one. – That’s a, she’s giving a teaser there. So where do you want to go, do you want, do we want to hear from a Mythical beast? – Sure. – What, how about, before we get into the questions, if we just, just, if we could just state our general opinion, yes or no. – Okay. – Is it ever okay to lie? Okay, just, just for starters, to throw that out there. – I’ll start by saying that I think if you are lying to protect the safety of yourself– – Don’t reason it out, just give me a yes or no– – Yes. – Yes. – And I can explain why. – You’re just asking for a yes or no answer? – Yeah. – For no, with no reasoning? – Okay, give your– – And what’s your answer, yes or no? – My reasoning is yes, if it’s to protect yourself or someone else, then yes, like, there’s the thing of, if there’s a murderer at the door, and the murderer is asking you about the location of their next victim, are you gonna be honest and say where they are, or are you gonna lie? – Okay. – You would lie, well, I would lie. – Well, I wouldn’t even respond, because my lie would be that I’m not there. – Well, it’s not you, it’s someone else is getting murdered, you can’t just, like, opt out of the situation. – It’s like, “Excuse me, I’m a murderer, I want to see “if your next door neighbor’s there,” it’s like, well. – It’s like someone shows up– – I’m also not here all of a sudden. (Lizzie laughs) I’m lying, I’m lying to protect my tail. (overlapping chatter) – But what if they caught you, what if they barged and they broke in and you’re there in the living room, “Is Rhett hiding under the couch? “‘Cause I’m trying to kill him.” – Right. – Yes or no, is it okay to lie about that? – Yes, that seems like an easy question. – Yeah– – Well, it’s not necessarily, though, people would disagree with you on that. Some people would. – I can’t think of many examples, but the examples that I think of in my own life, I feel like, well, no harm was done, or, but was there? Or could a lot, could good have been done if I would have told the truth? Like, I’ll give an example, because I just, I can’t give my simple answer, ’cause I would just say no, I would say yes, there has to be occasions where it’s okay to lie because boy, that’s a tough stance to say no, you can never lie. – Yeah. – Last night I was at the Olive Garden with my family. – How did that happen? (Lizzie laughs) Did you take a wrong turn? – We were in a, no, I’m not gonna dog Olive Garden, I have not been to an Olive Garden– – Yeah, when you’re there, you’re family. – Easily over 10 years, I have not been to an Olive Garden, and I did not bring up the Olive Garden, but it turns out we were in a neighborhood and the kids knew there was one, and we’re like– – Have they been watching commercials, or– – No, they saw the sign, they knew this area. And I was like, “Let’s grab something to eat,” and all three of them said, “Olive Garden!” And, ’cause they had, like, talked amongst themselves that there was an Olive Garden there, and I’m like, “Olive Garden? “I haven’t eaten there in over 10 years.” But the breadsticks, I remember the breadsticks from way back, my mom and I used to go a lot when I was in middle school, which was more than 10 years ago, I’ve been after that. (Rhett and Lizzie laugh) But the thing that put me over the edge is my three kids have never agreed on a place to go. – Okay. – So we went to Olive Garden, none of this is pertinent to the story except we were at an Olive Garden. – Okay. – So I’m sorry for dragging this out, and we’re sitting out there and the breadsticks come, that was the one thing I was looking forward to, until the next thing, which will be, like, the salad, and then the next thing, which would have been, like the lasagna. Or that trio, they got a trio of three things where you can get a lasagna and two other things. – Not a sponsor. – I remember I used to get that– – But maybe one day, and then I’ll change my mind (laughs). – So I was pretty excited once I got there, and a little embarrassed. – Okay. – And we got the breadsticks, and I was like, to the whole family, I was like, “Dang, these breadsticks are hard as a rock, “these are not as good as I remember them being,” and then the waitress says, “How is everything?” And I realized she was right there, she was right there. – Oh wow, okay. – Oh, no. – Like, literally, her head, she could have, like, stuck her tongue out and licked me. – So she probably heard you. – She didn’t, she’s been trained, she’s a waitress at Olive Garden. – She hears “breadsticks” and she just turns right off. (Lizzie laughs) – So literally, it was that close in time, I was like, “These breadsticks are hard as a rock, “this is not, I remember them being great.” “How is everything?” That was the timing of it. – And of course you said? – “Great, everything’s great.” The lie that I hope everybody along with me can agree that they, that they lie when put in that situation. – Sometimes I say it’s bad and I ask for a new thing, that’s something I started doing this year. – Some people don’t. – The reason why you lie is because the awkwardness associated with that type of exchange, and then, like, the self questioning and every, it’s just a derailment of your whole evening, of trying, it’s not worth it, getting something good to eat, it’s not worth getting hot, soft breadsticks just to be honest because of all the social awkwardness. The reason why I lied was so that it wouldn’t feel awkward to me– – Yeah, yeah, I completely understand and completely relate, and I’m worse than you are in being dishonest in those situations. – Yeah? – Here’s what I will say, I don’t want to get into, ’cause I have a theory about this, it’s a theory in development, and we can, I don’t want to get into it now ’cause I want to get into some questions, but you both stated what I think are the prevailing, it’s sort of, this is sort of the prevailing cultural perspective on dishonesty, which is, of course there are times when you should be dishonest, when somebody’s life is in danger, your personal safety is at stake, and then sort of the second layer is, of course dishonesty is okay when you’re avoiding some sort of cultural hurt that’s not worth the time. – No, that, I wouldn’t call it, I think there’s two different things being presented, one is– – Those are two, I’m saying, they’re two totally separate things, that’s what I’m saying. – Two separate things, one is, it’s okay to lie if it protects someone or yourself from harm– – But, no, but what I’m saying is both of those things are, almost everyone agrees with those two things. – Right, and the other one is what, it’s okay to lie, as long as it doesn’t hurt anybody. Now I think we can all– – That’s a way of stating it, yeah. – I think, but if you state it that way, I don’t know, I might be on shaky ground. – And that second one is the one that I’m beginning to think differently about, but let’s get into some questions or comments, or whatever they are, stories. – Sure, so the first one that stood out to me is from Elizabeth Reich, maybe, Reich? I don’t know, you’ve got a great name. It’s “Anytime someone asks, ‘Isn’t my newborn beautiful?’” – Do that, do they do that? – Yeah, they’re never beautiful. – It’s been a long time since I’ve had a newborn, almost seven years, so I don’t remember ever asking someone, is it– – It’s an uncommon question, but it is a common situation. – They’re so squishy. – So this was a way of cutting to the very specific, probably not very realistic question, scenario where they ask you, but what they typical scenario is– – Here’s the baby. – Here’s the baby, you’re supposed– – Now you say something nice. – You’re supposed to say something nice. – It doesn’t matter if it’s true. – But there are ugly babies, we can all acknowledge that. – Well, and let me tell you, first of all, the whole situation with little babies and me, I’m not, my hands are too big, I’m too high off the ground. – [Lizzie] Sure. – I’m worried about dropping them, I wasn’t comfortable– – That seems like a good combination. – Holding my own children. – If you’re gonna be tall– – I don’t like touching little babies. – And you’re holding babies, you want your hand to be big. – I do not deal with– – You don’t want to have little hands and a tall body– – I just don’t want to drop it. – Then you don’t want to hold a baby. – I don’t know, I just feel like they could slip through the two of my fingers. – Yeah, I have clammy hands, I’m afraid it’s just gonna slide out like a little sea otter or something. – It could, they’re slick, especially right when they come out– – Oh, gross. – I don’t do well with births or deaths. (Lizzie laughs) If somebody dies, I don’t know how to comfort you. – Oh, I love deaths. – Somebody– – What? – I don’t know how to compliment, but, the situation at hand. This is great, ’cause this is– – [Lizzie] Yeah. – This isn’t what we just talked about with the waitress, which is somebody you don’t know, this is somebody– – [Lizzie] This is someone you know. – You do know, and you’re going to tell them that their baby is beautiful, it’s typically the word that you would use, right? – [Lizzie] Yes. – Or so cute. – Yeah, I mean, I was a really hideous baby, and I’m sure people said I was adorable, and I looked like Winston Churchill in a bow, so. – I think you have to find a way to say something– – [Lizzie] That’s fine. – That is kind, I think, the holy grail is something that’s kind and truthful. – So you pick the one good thing about the baby, that’s gonna be weird. – His feet are magnificent. – Yeah (laughs). – Or just like, more nebulous, like, yes, little Jared is such a beautiful concept. – Oh, he looks smart, no. – Like a new bean coming into the world is a beautiful thing, isn’t it. But you make it, like– – Yeah, there’s lots of tactful ways around it, there’s lots of tactful ways around it. – Just say it’s beautiful, like, what is the point of being like– – Well, that’s a lie. – [Lizzie] Well– – He’s got your nose, Jared. – There’s a needle to thread here. – He’s got your nose, your nose happens to be horribly ugly. – [Lizzie] Aww. – But, no, but you don’t have to say that. – Leave that part out. – But Jared’s daddy knows that. – Which raises a difference issue, is withholding the full truth, is that lying? I don’t believe so. – It is lying. – Lying by omission, right? – No, if you say the baby is, oh, but if you say the baby’s beautiful, and the baby’s not, and you don’t think the baby’s beautiful, well, that’s a lie. – I didn’t want to get into this yet, because part of my working theory– – You keep not wanting to get into things. – Part of my working– – What are we here for? – Part of my working theory is that we would all be better off if we made a cultural agreement that the truth was so important that it was okay to speak it at any time, in any situation. So if I want to hold myself to that, then I would say that if Jared’s baby is ugly, I don’t know who Jared is in this situation, you mentioned Jared– – Jared was the baby. – I think Jared was the baby. – And now Jared senior is the dad. – Jared junior and Jared senior. I think, if I go with this theory that I’m saying that I believe the world would ultimately be a better place if you tell Jared his baby is ugly. – If he has signed the cultural contract that that’s what you get when you– – But what is ugly, first of all? I mean, we’re bringing in a lot of different things. You say, Jared, I don’t personally find your baby appealing, I find your baby repulsive, if you were to say that– – That would be, that would be true, but that doesn’t mean it’s even tolerable, that’s bad. – But in the context of– – But something can be true and bad, something can be false and good. – But in the context of today’s culture, that would ruin, it would do a lot of things, it would ruin your relationship with Jared and Jared junior, you would never have a relationship with them again, because you’d– – Do you want it, though, it’s an ugly baby, right? – True, but, you know, sometimes they grow up to be beautiful. – Just kidding, I’m kidding. – Yeah, there’s a whole lot of other things pent up in this conversation about our perception of beauty, which, we’re just using this as an example. There is no baby Jared that’s ugly or pretty, okay? This is just an example. – I think all babies are hideous, that’s my opinion, so. – But you want, well, mine weren’t. – [Lizzie] No, I just– – They all, they were C sections. – Your babies are great, I’m just saying, in general, little gooey babies. – When they come out of a man made. (Lizzie laughs) A man made hole– – They’re all man made. – Then they’re beautifuler than if they come out of, like, the God made hole. – Yeah, my head was real squishy and pointy when I came out, so that’s. – Okay, I don’t even want to get into that. – You’re saying the world would be a better place if everybody played off the same playbook of honesty. That’s, let’s continue to explore that– – There would be repercussions, and it would be, it’s all, it would be like ripping a huge bandaid off of us as– – Well, I don’t know how we would do it, that’s a secondary thing, but– – Yeah, nobody’s gonna agree to this, that’s the only problem. – So practically it’ll never happen, so I think it’s about threading the needle of the people who don’t have enough, enough sense to not ask, what do you think of little Jared? If they don’t have, you shouldn’t, you should show mercy on that person. – What if they specifically ask you? – Well, if they specifically ask me– – What if they said, “You know what, I’ve just been,” now first of all, no one’s gonna do this, but if they were to be like– – Yeah. – You know what, do you think my baby’s ugly? Because I’m starting to worry. – Oh, no (laughs). – I would be like, well, let’s, first of all, let’s not be in public. – I would definitely lie. – Let’s make sure that it’s just the two of us, and no one else can hear this, and you’re asking me to be brutally honest– – But honesty could also include, “Well, first of all, Jared, “it doesn’t matter whether or not Jared is ugly or not, “because what is beauty, Jared, “I’m sure Jared will find someone one day, “or not find someone, if that’s not important to him,” because– – I think, yeah? – What is beauty? But strictly speaking, if you want to know my aesthetic opinion about your kid, I could give it to you if you want. – Oh, no. – Right, but you’ve gotta really– – But I don’t think it would be profitable, I don’t think it would be profitable, which probably is a hint as to the fact that I think your baby’s hideous. – Right, and you would leave it at that, and then they would say, “Yes, I really want to know,” and then you would say, but I think you thread the needle first, if you say, “I’m not the best judge of babies.” (group laughs) You know, so it’s, like, there’s an easier way to say, “If you press me, you’re not gonna like the result,” (overlapping chatter) because I’ve signed the pact. (overlapping chatter) – They start pageants at very young ages now, Jared. – Yeah. – And you can, you can go– – But I don’t recommend your baby going to one. – Make a Craigslist ad, I’m sure they’ll show up. – It is a great way to start building a college fund, though, but your kid should probably look elsewhere. – Yeah, maybe not self confidence, though, but I’m not sure. – Okay. – So, but you want to be, I would love to be the person that could thread the needle, you would love to be the person that lived in a society where everyone agreed, because this is gonna come back and bite you, brother, people are gonna be honest about you. – Well, here’s the thing, I think there’s a lot of things to be sacrificed if we moved to a place where truth is actually important to us. I don’t, first of all, I don’t believe that truth is important to many of us, or even, really, any of us, because we tend to be, we tend to think that we’re being very rational when everything we know about the brain at this point shows us that even the things that we think are rational decisions are usually things that are coming from the more emotionally driven parts of our brain, and then, you know, our frontal cortex, the more rational part of the brain, is actually just confirming what actually happened in the emotional parts of our brain. So even when we think we’re being rational, we’re actually leading with our emotions. But, all that being said– – So we’re not, we’re not chasing truth, we’re chasing happiness– – Yeah. – Survival. – We’re chasing the only things that we can, based on the, the millions of years of evolution that created the brain that we have, and the way that we approach the world, and we’re doing the best that we can with it. – I agree with that, so when a waitress asks me, “What do you think,” and I don’t really like the breadsticks, I lie because I’m chasing the quickest way to get through a meal that I enjoy, which means no awkwardness for me, and– – Well, because– – It’s that simple. – Because, well, in a simplistic way, because ultimately, it benefits your, ultimately, you’re experiencing your survival if you have as little conflict with that waitress, especially if you initiate conflict with that waitress that’s unnecessary and all of a sudden she turns out to be crazy, and she pulls out a knife and stabs you because she really cares about the breadsticks at Olive Garden, she’s that committed– – She could have stabbed me with a breadstick, ’cause they were hard as a rock. – So what I’m saying is that this, socially, everything that has existed for eons has reinforced you not really valuing honesty but valuing getting yourself through a situation, so honesty is kind of a, is an afterthought. I believe that, now that we actually have control over our own evolution, you know, that we’re conscious beings and cultural evolution is happening faster– – Speak for yourself. – Than biological evolution, we actually stand the chance to implement things like, we’re going to see truth differently, we’re gonna hijack and commandeer our brain to be used for different things than it was in the past, and actually value truth more than we have in the past, I think we, we have the ability to do that, now and into the future, but there will be– – Well, that doesn’t give you a right to not be kind, so you’ve still gotta thread the needle. – Okay. – I think practically, that’s what we have to figure out, because you’re not, you’re not president yet. – Yet. – Sure. – I believe in you, Rhett. – Okay. – Well, to be, the thing about threading the needle and doing something to, lying to make people feel better, that is the experience that I will share– – [Link] Share. – I thought I was doing the right thing– – Well, share it, what happened? Were you at Olive Garden, too? – No, I can’t eat anything there, but it does smell good, so. – It’s like coffee. – Yeah. – We also got fried lasagna bites, which– – Ew. – How could those not be good? – I laughed when I saw that on the menu– – And then you ordered it? – Yeah, well, yeah, it was, sometimes I laugh, I order by laughing. – Okay, alright, so I, I was a camp counselor, I may have told you guys this at some point, but I was a camp counselor at the summer between college and coming out to LA– – Oh, wow. – So I was like 21, I had a cabin full of– – At the camp that you like, did all your summer camp stuff? – Yeah, that I went to when I was a kid, and I loved, and I had a bunch of 12-year-old girls in my cabin, and we had a bat that got into the cabin, and it was in the cabin every night for like, three nights, we couldn’t get rid of it, didn’t know what to do, and in Maine, because bats carry rabies, if you can’t catch the bat and you aren’t sure whether or not it like, I don’t know, drooled on your eyeball, you’re supposed to go get a rabies shot. So all these kids– – Oh, my goodness. – Were really scared about getting a rabies shot, and, you know, the other counselors were like, “You just gotta get them to do it,” like, you know, it’s optional, but they really should do it– – So they offered a rabies shot at the camp? – No, we had to go to the, like, Southern Maine Medical Center, so it’s, I was like, “It’s a fun field trip, like, “we’re gonna get ice cream after, it’s gonna be so fun,” and they were like, “It sounds like it’s gonna hurt.” And here’s where I lied (laughs). I said, “No, guys, I’ve had a rabies shot before.” (group laughs) “And it’s fine, it’s so fine,” I was like, “I’m gonna go with you, I’m gonna get one myself “’cause I was in there with you guys, “and you know what, you can watch me get it “so you’ll know that it’s not a scary experience.” – Oh, no. – And here’s where I made a crucial mistake. – You let them watch. – I let them watch, and so, like, a couple of them came back with me, ’cause they wanted to watch, one was smart enough not to do it, and– – Somebody knew you were lying. – Yeah, so I got back there, and I’m like, trying to keep my cool and, you know, be like, I know what I’m doing, I’ve been, this is, you know, not my first time at the rodeo, kids, but everything they’re saying, I’m, like, getting sweatier and sweatier ’cause I, it’s not at all what I expected, and they’re like, “Okay, so we’re basing the amount “of goo in each shot,” I mean, I’m sure they didn’t say goo, but– – Maybe they did– – They injected you with goo. – Rabies goo. – “Okay, so the amount of rabies goo “in each shot is dependent on your weight,” and obviously I’m the heaviest one there, so I got the most goo, and they had to split it up into two shots, because I needed two, and then I didn’t realize that they do it in your butt, so now we’re already in a bad territory– – Hey, kids, you can watch! – Yeah (laughs), I can’t be like, “You should get out of here,” so they stayed in, and I’m like, on my hands and knees on the table in the doctor’s office, and the nurses said, “Okay, we’re gonna do it on three,” and I thought they were just gonna do one shot, and these needles are like this big, and she did them both at the same time, in both of my butt cheeks, and I blacked out– – She double fisted the shots? – Yes, I passed out, and I woke up to them screaming, because I had blacked out. (group laughs) And, like, had a nose bleed, and I woke up, like, “No, it was fine, it was fine, it didn’t feel bad.” – See, kids, it was so easy, I fell asleep. – You’re turn, children. – [Lizzie] It’s so easy. – Then they had to do it? – They had to all do it, I’d gone first and I felt so bad, and they were like, “We thought you’d said you’d done it before,” and I had to be like, “I lied” (laughs). And then it, like, burned, it hurt to sit down and then by the end, I was just like, “It’s bad, just get in there, like, just let them do it.” – [Link] Wow. – So that was a situation where it turned around and it was, I shouldn’t have lied, I should have just been like, “Don’t watch me, ’cause it’s bad.” – It’ll bite you in the butt. – It did bite me in the butt. – [Link] Both cheeks. – Yeah. – ‘Cause that one seems like a pretty straightforward one in retrospect, right, so. – Yeah, there was no reason for me to lie there. – You could have said, possibly should have said– – Definitely should have said. – You know what, I actually have reason to believe that these shots are very painful, but you know what, the effect of rabies will be much more painful, if not deadly, if we don’t get these shots, and so we don’t have a choice, we have to do it, sometimes you have to do difficult things, kids. – Yeah, okay, that would have been a better learning experience than saying, “It’s great,” and then just blacking out in front of them, that’s not the best. – Yeah. – But there are many situations like that, where you– – I’m sure they learned from your failure. – Yeah, they did. – Maybe, maybe an even better situation would be like when you’re trying to get somebody to do something that you know is not going to harm them or whatever, and you like, make up some statistic about, you know, well, I mean, this is actually true, but you know, like, I know your wife is like a, she gets, she doesn’t do it very much anymore, but she doesn’t like flying, and you got this statistic, well, you’re actually much more likely to die on the way to the airport in the car than you are in the plane. Well, that’s actually true, that’s a good statistic, right? But conceivably there would be a situation where you knew that she was gonna be fine, but you said something to her to get her to calm down while she, while you were trying to fly, right? I mean, that– – If I were a better person, yes, I would do that, but I tended to kind of snicker and– – Oh, Link. – Or just sleep. – That was how you dealt with it. – Yeah, but I will point out that Lizzie was, she was lying in order to save their lives– – Well, but, it would have been better if I had just told the truth. – Well, no, because I think, well, what you, I guess what you were feeling was at stake was that they may refuse the shot– – [Lizzie] Right. – And then their lives are in your hands. A kid gets rabies because of you? – Well, because of a bat. – Well, because of you. – Okay. – ‘Cause you couldn’t get rid of the bat. – I couldn’t, I tried to catch it for three nights in a row, I had a yogurt container and an oven mitt– – Catch the bat, then none of this would have happened– – Okay, well that, okay– – But she was trying to protect them by lying, so it’s not like– – If that was the case. – I think your error is not that– – The error was letting them watch (laughs). – Yeah, the error was, not only am I lying, but I’ve also said to you, I want to prove to you I’m not lying, and you can’t, sometimes you can’t prove that– – Yeah. – ‘Cause you’re lying. – Well, and to your point about, like, making up a statistic, there’s actually somebody who made a comment about this, this was interesting, so Tiffany Mendoza said, “My, parentheses, at the time “five-year-old daughter didn’t want “to hold my hand crossing the street. “She’s run out in front of a car before by wriggling out “of my grip while my other hand was carrying groceries, “and I nearly had a heart attack. “So I told her that the greasy spots “in the parking lot were from kids “that didn’t hold Mommy or Daddy’s hand, “and they got squished, needless to say, “she’s now much more careful “in parking lots and near roads.” So how does that feature in your own– – It’s an interesting thing, like the, it’s, that’s like a wives’ tale lie, you know, it’s interesting how it’s like– – You mean it’s not true? The greasy spots are not children? – Yeah, they could be. – I actually don’t know what they are. No, we determined that they’re gum. – Oh. – Oh. – And other sticky stuff, and just oil slicks– – Oil from cars. – Yeah, I think it’s just oil. – But it turns out that old wives have a knack for weaving tales that are, the great thing about them is that they’re memorable, they stick with you, you know? Whereas if you would have, if the mom would have told the truth, it’s just like, “Well, you could get hit by a car,” something about it doesn’t resonate with the child, or it doesn’t, so I understand, like, the well meaning approach to such a ridiculous lie. – Totally understand it, but isn’t this what we’re doing? Okay, so if you, the thing is, is that we’re not choosing between two options. If the options were, if you do not tell this lie, your daughter is at risk, okay, so obviously, if you just distill it down to those two options, then you’re justified, because from a moral standpoint, you know, protecting your daughter from becoming a greasy spot on the road is more important, there’s more, it’s a higher moral calling than not telling her a fairy tale, right? But those are the two, it’s actually, there’s more options than that, right? There’s a higher option, which is I can tell her the truth about what will happen to her if, and it may not be as fun, and it may not be as immediately compelling, but as I think about my relationship with my daughter, as I think about, you know, what my word means to her, and I’m, listen, I’ve nothing against Tiffany, I tell my kids stories all the time, it’s one of my hobbies is just to make stuff up that, not even to teach them a lesson, just because it entertains me, so I’m not speaking from a moral high ground here. But I’m saying– – Yeah, you screw with the kids all the time. – Theoretically, I’m saying that as a society, as a species, if we could call ourselves to a higher standard where we’re like, you know what, I’m going to tell my kid the truth about this situation, because I feel like ultimately they will benefit more if they just understand the truth of this situation and act on it, as opposed to having to be told a story in order to be compelled. – [Lizzie] Right. – Listen here, kindergarten child of mine, if you don’t hold my hand while crossing the street, you’re gonna get hit by a car. It’s not gonna kill you instantaneously, it’ll probably hurt a whole lot, there’ll be some internal bleeding, I mean, a little bit of blood will be coming out of your nose, maybe your ears, maybe even your eyes, but it’s all the blood inside of you in places that it shouldn’t be that’s ultimately gonna kill you very slowly, while I’m calling 911, trying to get you to the hospital. – To be fair, this would work, I think. And I, I agree with you. – It takes a lot more work, though, and it’s not fun. – But it’s not more work down the road, though, because the issue with telling these types of stories to kids, and I, I don’t think my parents did a lot of this to me, it’s probably why I’m very anxious, they told me the truth a lot, but if you do tell a kid something like the greasy spot story, at some point they’re gonna find out that it’s not true, and when they do find that out, then all of a sudden your, the value of your word goes down a little bit, and also, then, they’re maybe not, when they know it’s not true, they’re like, well, I’m not gonna get hit by a car, I’m not gonna look when I’m jaywalking, you know, whatever. – But I don’t know, I’m contradicting myself now, because the more I think about it, stories are so compelling, right, I mean, that’s how we, as a, that’s how humans have, like, defined who we are, we make up stories about how we got here, and every culture has a story of how we got here and why we’re here and, you know, they don’t line up with the science, but they’re compelling, and they actually bring us together as cultures and, I don’t know, there’s a reason that we’re compelled by these stories, whether or not, they’re not, they’re true or not, so I don’t know. Maybe I’m, I’ve got some unrealistic thing where I’m like, calling people to some sort of robotic state which is, like you said, a lot less fun, the story, the Grimm’s fairy tales are very fun and, as we talked about on the show before, I think you did the research for that episode. – [Lizzie] Yeah. – They were all intended to teach kids lessons, and they were actually much more grim– – Yeah, they’re a nightmare. – Originally, than the updated versions, but I don’t know– – Does the result, or the fun had in the process, justify the dishonesty? I think, you know what, it’s not a rational thing to make the greasy spot story up, but there are plenty of people who do it, not like you, for the fun of it. So, I mean, we’re making light of it, saying it’s for fun, I don’t, I don’t think they do it for fun, I think they do it because you innately know that story is effective, more effective, it’s what I already said, but I don’t, so– – But is it worth it? – I don’t know how to thread that needle. – Well, is it technically a lie, is the other question. Because technically, quote unquote, a lie has to be an intentionally false statement, or, you know, you’re, you have to be trying to deceive someone in order for it to be a lie, so misinformation is not technically a lie. So if, I guess my question there would be is– – Alternative facts, are we talking about alternative facts? – Well, sure, it’s misinformation, I guess, if, well, if you are intending to deceive, if you know what you are saying is untrue and you are actively intending to deceive with misinformation, then that is a lie. But if you’re not, if you’re just disseminating misinformation, that’s not a lie, even if it’s incorrect, even if what’s coming out of your mouth is wrong, it’s technically not a lie. – Your motivations matter, your intentions matter. – Lying is entirely about motivation. So if the motivation is not so much to deceive your child as it is to stop them from running into the road, is that a lie? You will, you might not be a greasy spot on the road, you could get hit by a car and die, so– – Well, it’s technically a lie, I mean, if it, my definition of a lie is if it doesn’t match up with truth, whether you know it or not. – The Oxford English dictionary disagrees with you. – Well, I’ve been screening their calls. (Lizzie laughs) – Yeah, I do think, I do think your intent, but I would say that the, but in the case of the mother– – That’s a lie. – That was a lie, ’cause the intention was to deceive. – Yeah. – The intention was to deceive– – In order to protect. – In order to protect. – Right, but still, the intention is there, that’s true. – Well, I guess I do agree with that, and not what I just said before that. (Lizzie laughs) – Are you lying? – No, give us another lie story. – Alright, oh, I like this one. Josh-Summer Levinson said, “I sometimes tell my husband “that I have to poop and that he has to watch the kids, “but I usually just–” – Oh, I thought, I sometimes tell my husband I have to poop and he has to watch, that’s just weird. – Watch me drop the kids off at the pool. – My God, you know what– – I was like, what is this comment you’re reading? – Some people enjoy that, if they want to do it in the privacy of their own home. – Sometimes, so start over, ’cause I was in the wrong– – Head space. – Head space. – Okay, alright, so, “I sometimes tell my husband “that I have to poop and that he has to watch the kids,” (group laughs) “but I usually just sneak in Oreos,” okay, so I’m sorry, “that he has to watch the kids, “but I usually just sneak in Oreos “and eat them in the bathroom closet–” – That’s no way to live. – “If I told him the truth he would want my Oreos, “sometimes all I need is peace and Oreos “so I don’t lose it, I feel no shame.” I support that, he just wants to eat his Oreos in peace. – I mean, listen, this is tough, because– – She. – He. – He, the dad. – Yeah. – This is tough, because obviously I don’t, I mean, I am one of these people, I’m the person who tells the kid the story, I’m the person who tells my wife I’m going to poop so I can eat Oreos in the closet, I do it all the time in the closet– – Why is he in the bathroom closet, is my other question. – That’s what she said, water closet, yeah. – No, he’s in the closet in the bathroom, so it’s like he goes one step further, it’s a bathroom inception, he’s hidden inside of the bathroom. – Speaking of shame, I mean, you’re going, I mean, you’re going into the bathroom and then into a room inside the bathroom, what are you trying to hide? – Oreos. – But again, so I’m not saying that I do this, but I just have to believe that ultimately, the relationship would be enhanced if this kind of thing didn’t exist. – That’s deception for nothing but selfishness, I mean, this is pretty clear cut, but– – But he’s gonna lose his mind if he doesn’t eat the Oreos in the closet. – It’s not serious, it’s not on the same level– – Who is he hurting? – If Oreo was another person– – And he was eating them in the closet, that would be bad. (group laughs) – That’s a problem, right? – Yeah, yeah. – That would be a problem, but that’s not what is happening, these are cookies, and Cookie could also be someone’s name, but that’s not what we’re talking about. – Don’t eat people is the moral of this. – So I don’t fault this person, I’m just saying that, I try, I just believe that if we just turn one more corner and we’re like, you know what, that’s serious, we don’t do that, we don’t tell those kinds of lies, even though it’s about Oreos in the bathroom, we don’t do it because we value honesty in a new and different way. – I don’t, I don’t think I’ve ever gone into the bathroom to imply that I was pooping and I never attempted to poop, but I do stay in there a lot longer than I need to to poop, so, I mean, that is deception, I’m deceiving my family, and they know it, like, they’ll come knock on the door– – [Lizzie] Oh, no. – “Get out of there, you’re on your phone,” I mean, so– – You guys are not making me want kids. – It’s not even much of a deception, I mean, there’s few places you can go that you can have any, like, Oreo time, you know what I’m saying? Or phone time, or just, like, just not, not having to answer to someone else’s needs. – [Lizzie] Sure (laughs). – It’s selfishness, I mean, you know> – Maybe there’s no hope. – Yeah. – You know, maybe this is just a, maybe this is just all too ingrained, you know, it’s just too ingrained. – But if you say, but why can’t you just come out and say, you know what, when Dad’s pooping, we all know that I’m not actually pooping, that I’m on my phone, or I just need some quiet time, this is my safe place that I want, I just want you to give me some space, so I’m not deceiving you, I’m only gonna go in here if A, I need to poop, or B, I need to have some alone time, and I just want to be real about that, and then there you go, it’s, everybody’s on the same page– – Well, you know the advantage to that, is that now the family understands that Dad needs his Oreo time. – Right, and you could have that somewhere other than the bathroom, if you wanted. – Maybe they, maybe they need to understand that you have needs. – It could be a garage or a shed– – What about the classic example of. (overlapping chatter) Somebody gets you, and somebody may have submitted this question, anybody submit a question about getting a present from someone? – Yeah, we got a bunch. – Okay, so that’s the classic example that, I’ve been thinking about this scenario– – Let’s here it, then. – Well, now I’m trying to find one of them. Oh, here we go, Megan Hester, “When my son really wanted the commemorative GMM coin, “I told him I missed the ordering deadline “and wasn’t able to get it for him, “gave it to him for Christmas.” So she got him a gift and lied and said that she couldn’t get it, and then she gave it to him, are you talking about– – To make herself look even better. – Right. – Well, this isn’t, well– – Or to make a bigger surprise. – This isn’t the surprise party category, right? – Yeah, yeah. – Which is, I’ve planned something for you, and you say, “Where are we going?” Oh, we’re going here, but you’re really going to a surprise party, are we really, like, am I really willing to give up surprise parties? I don’t even like surprise parties– – No, they’re stressful. – But as a culture, do I think that not lying for surprise parties is something that needs to go away, I don’t think so. – No, because that’s a fun lie, ’cause then you’re like, oh, you got me, it’s, you know. – But specifically with presents, what I’m talking about is Grandma gets you a sweater. – Oh. – And you’ve already got the sweater, that situation. – You have to say you love it, you don’t have a choice. – No, but what if you, no, but in the, in the new world that I’m trying to usher in, but I’m not really sure if I want to usher it in, you tell Grandma, “Grandma, I really appreciate this gift. “You know what, I actually have this sweater already.” We have a couple options, you know what, I can have a backup sweater, “You got me a backup sweater.” Or, “I really appreciate this, but I already have it, “and I’m totally fine with keeping it, “you can do whatever you want to, “I appreciate,” you know, “I appreciate the gifts, “I appreciate the gesture, but I’m letting you know, “I already have this.” – Why do you have to let them know, though? Couldn’t you just say, “I really appreciate the gift,” – I love the sweater– – Silence? – Parenthetically, that’s why I already have one. – Right, you don’t need to finish that sentence. – So I like they way you’re going with this, you’re trying to maintain the truth, but do it in a way that is, doesn’t hurt anybody’s feelings, you’re trying to get the best of both worlds, which may– – Perjury proof. – That may be the– – Court of law truth. – The ultimate ethic– – Thread that needle. – Thread the needle. – I think the interesting thing is– – But what if she says, “Do you already have this one?” (overlapping chatter) “Do you already have this one and do you like it?” – Yes and yes. – Again, if someone’s asking pointed questions, I think you can say, “Do you really want to know?” (Rhett laughs) And then if they press, then you give them the answer. – Okay. – At a certain point, every needle can’t be threaded, some needles have no holes. – That feels like a threat, like, the “Do you really want to know,” but that’s good, that’s probably better, ’cause they’ll be like, “Oh, I guess not.” – And I kind of already know. – [Lizzie] Right. – They already know the answer when you say it like that. – Yeah, that’s what I mean, it’s a little scary. – I think the interesting thing is lying in order to, for the betterment of somebody else, which is like, for a surprise party or something like that, but then there’s certain times when you lie to protect them or to make their lives better, but you never know what, does the, is the truth always better? Like, here’s another example, my mom calls me on the phone, she lives on an opposite coast from me, she can’t tell how well I’m doing, so she asks, “How are you doing?” And maybe I’m not doing well that moment, that day, or that month, who knows? I’m always very inclined to say, “I’m fine,” because I don’t feel like, I feel like she’s pretty hamstrung to help me, that I wouldn’t want to burden her with something that she’s powerless to help with, so I would, I lie and tell her I’m okay. Now this is mostly hypothetical, I’m not thinking of a specific instance– – Are you doing okay, Link? (Rhett and Lizzie laugh) – I am doing okay, thank you for asking, and if you’re right here in my presence, and, but my instinct might be, if somebody’s like, “How are you?” And you’re like, “good,” you know, in general you say that in a small talk setting, and I had one friend who was like, who would always be honest, and then the response, most of the time, would be like, they would never say this, but then they’d be like, “Whoa, “that guy was actually honest, now I’ve gotta–” – Well, and then the– – He told me exactly how he was and– – And what happens, the conversation becomes about, very focused on the person who said they weren’t good. – Right, you’re burdening somebody else with, which is maybe okay, but. – But if it’s like, your mom, sometimes I might say like, “I’m okay,” just because I wouldn’t want to burden my mom, that seems like a good impulse, but you never know what good can come from the truth, it’s like, there’s so much risk when you’re justifying a lie. I think there’s a lot more risk that’s baggage to a lie than there is risk of the truth, like, the risk of awkwardness or hurting someone’s feelings in the short term, again, you’ve gotta thread the needle and be as kind as you can, but the risk in being truthful is much lower than being, than lying, even for their own good. – And how about this, so what if we agreed, you’re not gonna get the whole human race to do this, but, like, what if there was a small community of people who were like, we agree to be perfectly honest with each other, right, and your mom and you were in that community. Now, when your mom asks you how you’re doing, if she is part of that agreement, she now knows that that is not an empty question. She knows that question has an answer, and that question may have an answer that is, “I’m not doing too well,” and now we’re talking about how I’m doing. – Well, I already knew that, my mom– – I’m not saying she– – I already knew that my mom, that wouldn’t be an empty question for my mom– – No, that’s not what I mean– – As opposed to small talk, but– – No, no, that’s not what I mean, I’m not saying it was just small talk, what I’m saying is that if you move to this higher ethic, right, or the more honest ethic, whatever it is, and the people in the community agreed to that, the people’s questions would be more calculated and more measured, because it’s like, I’m not gonna just, “how ya doing” is no longer a greeting, because I only say it when I mean it, and I, ’cause right now we’re in this in between stage where we value honesty but we don’t really value honesty, we have all these cultural conventions, like saying, “how ya doing” when you meet somebody, and the answer is supposed to be “alright, good, fine.” – Yeah, you’re switching the onus from like, in terms of a question, from the, right now the onus is on the person who receives the question to discern, did they really, do they really want to know the answer to that question, or what do they want to hear? And then it’s the question of, are you gonna give them what they want to hear, does that person really want to know how I’m doing, or are they just being friendly? – And think about all– – In a simple situation. – Think about all the things it might change, and who knows, I don’t know, I’m not a historian, maybe there’s a culture that in some, people have valued honesty differently in the past, maybe there’s some, some people group that, like, were, valued this more, and I would love to see, like, how gift giving and all these other things, and greetings, were impacted by somebody who really values honesty to, like, almost an obsessive level, like, that would be an interesting social experiment. Obviously there’s been movies about it, Liar Liar. – Oh, yeah. – But like, if everybody agreed to be that honest, like, what would happen culturally? – What happened in Liar Liar? – Well, he learned about himself, he learned that he lied too much and that there was a happy medium to strike in terms of lying, and he got his family back ’cause he was brutally honest, right, am I making that up? If so, I’m gonna write a new movie that’s that. – It’s been so long since I’ve seen that movie. – What, he was like hit in the head and he could only tell the truth, right? – No, it’s like a magic thing, I think, he’s like a– – You know, it’s a Jim Carrey movie, man, from the ’90s, there was magic. – But he could only tell the truth– – He’s a lawyer, right, isn’t that what it is? He’s like a big, fancy lawyer, and then he can only tell the truth and he can’t, like, lie to his kid anymore about why he can’t pick the kid up, he has to, you know, then it’s, Jim Carrey is, like, fighting with himself in the bathroom mirror, I think. – [Rhett] Yeah. – I think that’s right. – Yeah, yeah, I mean, it happens, like, when he’s on a case and he’s like– – [Lizzie] Yes. – Suddenly he’s, like, a defense attorney and he suddenly had to be honest, so– – About his guilty client. – It was a great way to illustrate it, but– – I’m just, here’s what I’m advocating, I’m not advocating something unrealistic like you are. What I’m advocating is whenever, we pursue conveying truth whenever possible in the kindest way possible. And it’s very difficult to do, but, so like, when my mom asks me, if something, if I’m bothered by something and my mom asks me, and I think it’s, like, I’m not okay, it’s like, and I don’t want her to worry, well, you know what, maybe I learn something about my mom when I tell her that something’s bothering me, and then we have a conversation that otherwise we wouldn’t have had, or she has input, or, you know, it’s like, a lot of times it happens, not when it’s like, “how are you doing,” but, like, with medical conditions, sometimes you’ll wait to tell somebody that you’ve undergone a test until you know the results, because you know that, you have certain family members that will worry endlessly about you, and is that a lie? – My dad just did that to me. – Or waiting to say that you’re pregnant, yeah. – And how did you feel about that, when, ’cause– – I wished he’d told me, ’cause he, so he told me after the fact that he’d had, I think they saw something in, like, a scan in his lung or something, and he didn’t tell me, like, any of that at all until several weeks later when it came back and he was fine. – Because he didn’t want you to worry in the meantime, he didn’t want to burden you with it. – Yeah, but I would have– – And it was a truly, it seems like a truly selfless motivation, for that lie. – It was, it was, and I know it’s because he didn’t want to stress me out or anything, but I do wish I had known about that. – Why? – I don’t know, I want, you know, I would want him to feel like he can tell me that stuff and not, not feel like it’s a burden to me, because it wouldn’t have been. – Right, because you love him, and you can’t, maybe you wouldn’t say specifically what you would do, but the general premise is that when you love somebody, it’s like, him telling you may have been a way for him to experience the love of his daughter. – Right. – And it’s like, you can’t quantify that and you can’t predict, you can’t predict what can, again, it’s the risk of, of keeping the truth from somebody versus telling them the truth, it’s like, well, is it gonna make them worry? Well, what are you risking losing, like, a certain type of connection with your daughter– – Yeah, he– – The conversation, and, yeah, so it’s, I think that’s the difficult thing is, we, there’s, we have these instincts to lie for good reasons, but it may be short-sighted. So I think that’s a good example of a time where we should just say, okay, it’s almost like a faith in truth, overriding the faith in what you think is gonna happen– – It’s believing that the, ultimately the best will come out of honesty, but– – But you can be brutally honest, you can be a total jerk, you can– – But not at the expense of people. – I have a friend who I actually think walks the line that you guys are thinking is the good line to walk– – Threads the needle? – Yeah, I think he does, he’s extremely honest, and, but it’s not honest to a fault, like, I think that he withholds certain information when he feels like he needs to, but he’s somebody that I don’t think I’ve ever had a conversation with that wasn’t completely earnest. Like, if he asked me how I was, and I were to say, “Not good,” he fully would be invested in that conversation, and also if I were to ask him how he’s doing, and he’s not doing well, there’s no way he would say, “I’m great,” he would say, like– – And if you didn’t, so if you, with him, because you know him, he’s kind of, and you know he’s playing to, like, Rhett’s code, you actually wouldn’t ask him how he was doing, ’cause you’re playing with fire, ’cause then you might be in a 20 minute conversation. – No, it’s never, that’s the crazy thing is it’s never a 20 minute conversation, it’s always, it never feels, it never feels like a burden, which, like, that’s what, the line I think you’re trying to walk is that you don’t want to, you don’t want to put unnecessary stress on other people by being honest, but I’m not sure it does stress them out, because this person’s extremely honest, and it means that you can trust every conversation with them, you know? – Are there ethic, are there, like, competing ethical world views– – Yeah. – About this, in terms of, I bet there’s a hard line. – There is, so I mean, there’s basically two camps of theories about lying in general, and one is the camp from, let’s start with the German philosopher, Immanuel Kant, boy, I hope they’re German, read that somewhere and wrote it down, but I’ve been wrong before, so, and the theory behind this is that lying is always wrong, not matter what, doesn’t matter. And this is actually where the scenario of the “there’s a murderer at your door” comes from, because the argument here is that there is a murderer at your door, they’re asking, “Is Rhett under the couch?” Rhett is under the couch, you are still supposed to say, “Yes, Rhett’s under the couch, “please, come into my house.” – He is hard lining it, isn’t he? – Yeah, absolutely. – But then what? – Everything that I’ve read from him, though, like, he’s– – I’m glad you’ve read it, is it a German man? – The way, I believe so, yeah, but just, like, Kantian ethics, you know, like, the way that he approaches things is, like, there’s little sacrifices made along the way, but it’s, like, it’s, I don’t know, it’s because of the way my brain works, but it’s, like, a very attractive way of thinking. – But what’s the, what, how can you make that attractive, then, what’s the justification– – Ultimately it will bring about good. – Yeah. – More good. – Yeah, I mean– – Maybe not in that– – So he has the most pristine faith in truth? – It’s a long view, now, I didn’t even remember that he was the one that talked about this, but. – He’s one of many. – Does he talk about, okay, so then the murderer comes in and kills the person, and then what? – You get out of there, ’cause they’re probably gonna kill you, you’re a witness. – That’s not what he says. – No, I didn’t read that far, I, you know, I got to the point where that, he has a hard line on lying, as do other people, you know, another, another fun party girl, Ayn Rand, once said, “There are no white lies, “there’s only the blackest of destruction, “and a white lie is the blackest of all,” seems fun. A good time, but, you know, on the other hand, there’s a lot of people that argue that lying is essential to human existence and that it’s a natural part of life, it’s something we’re never gonna stop doing, ’cause it’s just what we’re built to do. – Well, I agree with that, I don’t know if it justifies it. – Well, there’s the other side of the coin, is that, you know, if you are protecting yourself or the life of someone else, of course it is okay, and it is your duty to do it, and if you don’t do it, then you’re not protecting someone. A really great philosopher once said, “I always tell the truth, even when I lie,” and that philosopher is Al Pacino. (Rhett laughs) So you can always learn something from him. – Even when he lies. – He doesn’t mean anything by that. – Did, I mean, were any of those scenarios presented by the Mythical beasts, that, okay, I lied and I’m proud of it. – Yes, so this is something that I– – Or I’m happy I did, or it was the right thing. – Well, so, when I went through a lot of, a lot of the beasts’ comments, which was very interesting, and one thing that kept coming up, more times than I expected to see, was something like this next comment that I’m gonna read to you, so this is something that appeared upwards of 10 times, at least. – Okay. – This person I’m gonna keep anonymous, but she said, “On a more serious note, I lied to my abuser after a fight “that quote, ‘I love you and we’re good,’ so I could go “to work, instead I went to the police station, “survival makes you do crazy things sometimes.” So that’s a situation in which there is, I don’t see any way that you could argue to this person that that was not the right thing to do there. – I can’t do it. – Yeah, you Kant, Immanuel. – Yeah, I mean– – Yeah, I mean, survival makes you do crazy things, it also makes you do sane things, that seems very sane to me. – Yeah, but this was not the only one, I mean, there were so many people who were saying, like, “I lied, I said I was going to work “and really, I took my kids and I went to a shelter,” there were a bunch of these. – Yeah, and that’s, and I think this is where you get into the, the rub, which is, it’s fun and easy to sit around and have philosophical conversations about how the truth is always the ultimate good and it supersedes any particular situation, but it is the particular situation, especially when you attach a name to them, and a specific story, and a specific experience, and I think that that, for me, is the reason that I don’t think that you can do what Kant said, I don’t, I don’t think you can ever get there, because we’re experiencing these ethics in the context of people and who we are, right? So when it begins to feel unnatural and it begins to feel, it begins to feel wrong, right, for me to tell someone, and I don’t have, this is not my experience, I haven’t experienced anything like that personally, I can only imagine how horrible it would be, but for me to then say, “No, I have an ethic “that supersedes your situation “and you actually should not have lied to your abuser “in that situation,” the reason it feels wrong is probably because it is wrong, right? And so I can’t, so– – The lying is wrong? – The reason, it would feel wrong to tell her that she shouldn’t have lied– – Yeah, of course you should lie, right. – Absolutely. – And so I think that that’s how, that’s how you find the thread for the needle, right, is, it’s like, we can have these high standards, but once it begins to not make sense in specific situations– – Easily when it, it imminently endangers you or someone else, then it’s, there are more important things at stake than being truthful in a moment. – Absolutely, and there’s also something that I came across, I was watching some old Louis CK standup, and something that he said, it’s a joke, obviously, but he said, “Lying is amazingly useful in life, “how do you tell a kid not to use a thing “that just solves every possible problem?” Which obviously, that’s a joke, you don’t want a kid to lie about everything, however, like, there are situations in which it’s useful, that that woman’s story being one of them, like, she had to do that to be able to get out, and to be able to get to the police station, so, you know. – I’m glad that you went to the more serious place, but let’s wrap up with a more jovial lie. – [Lizzie] Sure. – You got one more for us to? – Yeah. – Knock it out of the happy park? – Yeah, I got my favorite one here for you. I guess I’ll leave this one anonymous, as well. – Oh. – Someone said, “I sharted once “and told everyone I was walking funny “’cause I had fallen while skateboarding.” I don’t know what the lie they told was about the smell or, you know, goo coming out of their shorts. – How do you do a shart walk to make it look like you injured yourself on a skateboard, I don’t– – Like, if you’re trying to make it look like your knee’s bad. – I fell on my hips. – Yeah (laughs). – I sharted once and– – Really? – And told my, yeah, it was in the car with my family on the way to Dollywood, and we just turned right around. – You just told them all? – You didn’t lie. – I didn’t lie, I actually– – How can you lie, like, everyone’s gonna know, that’s not one you can hide. – I sharted and then I just pulled over and turned around, they’re like, “Why is Dad doing a U-turn?” And then I was like, “Kids–” – I pooped my britches. – I sharted. – It hasn’t happened to me yet, that I’ve pooped my pants as an adult, and I keep being told that it will happen. – Oh, it will, it’s unavoidable. – It’s never happened to me, either. – Is it over 30, is it don’t trust a fart over 30, and that’s what I’ve gotta know in two years? – I don’t know if it was an age thing, it’s just, I don’t know, I think it was, I was not doing well. – Okay (laughs). – Yeah, don’t make it an age thing. – I didn’t lie about it. – [Lizzie] And that’s good. – I have the sphincter of an adolescent. – What? – It’s very tight, what does that mean? – I don’t know. – I don’t know. – That’s a horrific thing to say, don’t ever say that again. – Don’t (laughs). – Well, she’s making like we’re old– – No, that’s not what I said. – But I haven’t sharted– – I’ve literally heard, don’t trust a fart after 30, like, people have told me that, and I’m now afraid, I have two more years of not crapping my pants. – There’s no doubt that that’s, it’s in your future, but– – No. – But where do we land, where did we– – I’ve never farted more than 29 times in a row, maybe that’s what it means. – Where did we land? – But you have counted. – Oh, I’ve counted. – My, where I’ve landed at the end of this conversation is that I think, in a situation, you know what, I’ll go back to what you just said, where if it feels, if you feel wrong about something or you feel like you’re doing harm to someone else by lying, don’t do it. But if it feels fine, if you’re doing it to protect yourself, if it’s a situation where you have to do it, which obviously does exist, it’s, I think it’s a necessary part of the human existence. – Well, I completely agree with that, I think the thing I was hoping would happen is that at the end of this conversation– – We would be the first three to sign a global contract of honesty. – I’m not doing that. – That was in my imagination, but, like, practically, what I was hoping is that the next time I’m at a restaurant and the waitress asks me, “How is it?” I’ll be honest, because she’s asking the question because she wants to know the answer. – I think you should, in that scenario. – And. But I don’t, how, I just, I don’t feel motivated right now to do that, I kind of feel like I’m just gonna be like, “It’s good.” – I think, for me– – But I want to do better. – That’s related to where I’ve landed in this conversation, which is, I’m gonna try to be more cognizant of when I am prevaricating. – What? – I’m just– – Saving that word all– – I just remembered it, I don’t know. – What is that word? – I think it means lie. – Oh. – Prevaricate. Why use so many letters when you can just say L-I-E? I want to be more aware of when I’m lying, or not being truthful in everyday situations, and trying to thread the needle and take the high road of truth, and seeing what happens, but doing it with as, as kind as possible, issuing a personal challenge to say, okay, I’m gonna say, “You know what? “These breadsticks are hard as a rock, “but my hopes were so high “because I remembered them being so great, and I believe “that there’s some back there that are,” wink wink. – You know what, maybe it’s, maybe it comes down to being always honest to yourself, regardless of what you are saying, and if you honestly know that what you are saying doesn’t need to be a lie– – That sounds like something a serial killer would say. – That’s fair, I’ve heard that before. (Link laughs) – I didn’t mean it that way. – I like, I like where you’re landing on this. – Me or Lizzie, ’cause– – You. (Link and Lizzie laugh) No, I think, I think that they’re related, and I think she is, she was complimenting what you were saying, she wasn’t contradicting what you were saying. What I hear you saying is that maybe the reason that we’re frightened of being honest is because we’re frightened of the way we, the way we would be honest. So if we can learn to be honest in tactful ways, then we might find that honesty is actually a lot easier than we ever imagined. – That it’s the best policy? – Honesty is the best policy, that is what we’ve arrived at, but– – I didn’t, but I didn’t mean to short circuit your statement with the serial killer thing, and if I did, please finish it. – No, it’s gone, I already have the handwriting of Charles Manson, so I’m like, one step behind that already, so. – But if you feel that way, I think, these are complimentary perspectives, guys. – Yeah, yeah. – If you feel a certain way about the breadsticks and that is what you feel, that honestly what you feel, be honest with yourself. But when someone asks you how you, how the breadsticks are, be honest with them, but don’t be an a-hole. – Yeah. That’s all it is. – Just be honest. – Be an honest hole. – Yeah. – Be an honest hole. – Be an h-hole. – Be an h-hole. – Yes. – Yeah, there we go. – Be an h-hole, that’s the ethic that we have arrived at, be an h-hole. – I’m happy with that. – Put that on a t-shirt, it won’t make sense to anyone who hasn’t listened to this. To hear this Ear Biscuit in its entirety so you don’t miss a thing, follow the links in the description to ART19, Apple podcasts, Spotify, and anywhere else podcasts are available. – [Link] To watch more Ear Biscuits, click the video on the left. – [Rhett] To watch more from This Is Mythical, click the video on the right. – [Link] And don’t forget to subscribe by clicking the circular icon. – [Rhett] Thanks for being your Mythical best. (electronic beeps)