Welcome to “Ear Biscuits,” the podcast where two lifelong friends talk about life for a long time. I’m Link. And I’m Rhett. This week at the round table of dim lighting, we are hearing from Link and his three year update on where he stands spiritually. It’s all about me today, baby. Man, you know what? I’m happy to be doing this. Previous years I didn’t think I was happy to be doing this at the time. But I’ll tell you, man- You would tell me as much. Yeah. I’m kind of on top of the world right now. Uh-oh. On top of my little world. My own little Link… Molehill. Okay. You know? I’m just feeling good. Very happy. And I’m ready to share some stuff that I’ve written in my journal. Oh, wow. Written in my journal. What do you think of my handwriting? You can pick it out from, you can pick it out from a mile away, couldn’t you? Yeah. I could definitely pick out your handwriting. It’s amazing how it hasn’t changed. You know, since like, you know, back when we used to write, like in high school. Even college. Mine changed in college and solidified. Oh, I can still pick it out, man. It’s like a signature. No, no. I’m saying that I wrote in cursive in high school. And I cannot write in cursive if you ask me to. I have some sort of a hybrid here. I don’t know. If I get real excited, it gets real jumbly. And I got really excited in some of the stuff that I wanna share with you today. I’m excited to hear. Yeah, this is good. First of all, yesterday, I hit a milestone that just kind of, things were just going great, and then- 15,000 steps. Something just put it over the top. I got back on my bike. Oh. For the first time since my injury, man. I don’t know how we feel about that. Yeah, Christy was like, I was leaving. Speaking for all of us. I was like, “I’m going to get on my bike.” And she was like, she gave me this look. She was like, “Come back with the same number of pieces “that you left in,” was the look. Was there any difference in protective gear? Any difference in route? Any difference in approach? Yep. Are you in a bubble now? Less protective gear. You’re no longer on a bite. You’re just in one of those bubbles rolling down the mountain? Not as much protective gear. I just wore a helmet. I didn’t wear any of my pads ’cause I’m like, I gotta ease back into it. Okay, all right. Yeah, it’s counterintuitive, isn’t it? Huh huh? Well, because maybe the pads give you a false sense of security. No, I just, I’m not in, my fitness level is not to the point where I’m gonna do stuff that I’m gonna fall. I’m pretty sure. So, you know, I did some, it was more on the flat side of things. There was a little bit of, you know, I went around the dam, and there’s a couple of places where there’s some single track because I was trying to figure out if my, like the shock to the shoulders, like the bumpiness. Like, you know, I got the suspension in the front, but a lot of that’s still in your arms and like- Do you feel anything in that shoulder? Yeah, it’s still tight and not comfortable exactly. But I think the bone is pretty much healed. Last time I went to the doctor, he was like, you know, “Give it four more weeks “and you should have complete reunion of the bone. “And so I’ll have you come back and we’ll do another x-ray.” And I was like, “Do we really need to do that?” And he was like, “I’m fine with you not coming back “if you don’t want to come back.” And how many weeks ago was that? Four weeks ago. So now I should, as of like a couple of days ago, it should be totally fixed. And there’s no reason to think that it wouldn’t be. There will come a time in which you don’t- I just didn’t wanna go there and get an x-ray. You don’t think about it anymore. Spend a couple of hours. Yeah, and I’ve been going to physical therapy. I’ve been, you know… But it’s gonna be completely outta your mind at some point. You know what I’m saying? Oh yeah. Jane is giving me lots of confidence. She’s my PT guru. She’s helping me invite things to the party. Remember, inviting my ribs to the party? That’s her. Oh, the same woman? Yeah. Oh yeah, she’s great. Is she inviting your shoulder to the party? Yeah, yeah. She said she was very proud of me. And that made me feel good. But just getting back out there and then having something that like, okay, now the thing that I’m working towards is getting back in that spot where I’m like climbing the mountain where I, you know, took the tumble and broke myself. I want to be able to get back there, and there’s a certain fitness level to be able to get up the mountain and then enjoy the breeze in my, not my hair ’cause I have a helmet, but in my face, coming back down that mountain. Do you know exactly where that spot is? I think I will, yeah. Put a cross there? I didn’t die, dude. Yeah, I might get off and pour one out, you know. Pour one out for the old bump in my right shoulder that’s now a little less of a bump. But I mean, yeah, so yesterday was really a milestone moment for me to be on my bike. And as you’ll see in a lot of what I’m talking about today, just trying to acknowledge the moments, the special moments in my life, you know? If this is all there is, boy, I’m grateful for it ’cause I really am #blessed. I’m really, you know, I’m really grateful. We got a lot of good stuff to be grateful for. Agreed. You know? So I just want to, I wanna savor those moments. And yesterday being back on the bike, there was a little bit of nervousness, but it was definitely… You know, that was like 11 or 12 weeks to not do something that’s that special to me was like, I really missed it. So it, like, I just kinda, I wallowed like a pig in that mud, you know, just like, man, this feels good. This feels good. Right now. Right now. And right now. And right now. And right now. Wow, really in the moment. And right now. In multiple moments. So yeah, I just wanna share my mindset on stuff. And I feel like this is gonna be a happy time. I hope you catch some of it as you’re listening. I hope it makes you happier. You know, if you care about me, then this is also for you, you know? I’m sharing my happiness with you today in this podcast. “Ear Biscuits” is brought to you by Better Help. You know we are big fans of therapy. We both benefit from therapy, and we both, have you been through a number of therapists? I’ve been through a, I’m on my second therapist. I’m still on my first. Hey, you know what? That’s unusual, my friend. Finding therapy is very important, but it’s not easy. It is not easy. And I think that it is an unusual experience that I just happened to find somebody who was the right fit for me. Yeah. For the first time. It happens in relationships. It happens sometimes in professional relationships with your therapist, but it doesn’t always happen. And that’s why we’re big fans of Better Help. Yeah, if you’re thinking about giving therapy a try, Better Help’s a great option. It’s super easy to use. It won’t break your bank, and you can do therapy from anywhere because it’s entirely online. So you just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist, and you can switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. If you wanna live a more empowered life, therapy can help get you there. Visit betterhelp.com/ear today to get 10% off your first month. That’s betterhelp, H-E-L-P, .com/ear. When we first started talking about our spiritual journeys, it was very much like that buzzword of like deconstruction and like breaking things down from my evangelical upbringing that I’ve discovered that I would be better off shedding. I mean, very specifically just like guilt and shame. Like, this perceived constant judgment, whether it comes from God or from, you know, people that I respect, and I think most constantly myself, my inner critic, if you want to call it. And as I mentioned at the end of last year, like therapy’s been really good for me over the past year. Like, it’s just really started to click into place with my therapist. And things are going really great there. And one of the exercises that we worked on is just discussing it, unpacking it, but also kind of getting in my body with it and breathing. A breathing exercise where I breathe in self-compassion and I breathe out self-judgment. Discovering that it kept coming up so much that I was so hard on myself. So it was so ingrained that, yeah, my default position is bad. I’m a bad, I’m bad at my core. And it just permeated so much of how I lived my life, how I felt, and how I held myself. So it was a great like non, again, when it’s associated with your breath, I think I’m coming to learn that like, it’s less about like rational brain conclusion stuff and more about, I don’t know, you call it heart, body kind of… Things releasing that didn’t reside fully just in what I would call my brain, in my head. So breathing in compassion, breathing out judgment. And it’s just been a very good exercise. Like, literally something that we would go back to many weeks in a row. Maybe skip a couple, then find myself coming back to that exercise. So that’s just something that I’m doing more of. It really helps. It’s been really helping me. And I think that I’m just done with the deconstruction term. I don’t think I’m done unpacking the things that I need, the things that are like lurking in some suitcases that I need to let go of. By the way, and I always like to say this, like, I don’t want to just give this impression that like I’m trashing my entire upbringing and my former belief system and just throwing it all out. I cherish so much about that, and I’ve said that before and so I’m just saying it again right now. Like, there’s parts of how that’s built me that are beautiful and meaningful and I never wanna let go of. But the way that me specifically, I, like the way that I’m made up, everything about me and how I interacted with my environment, you know, there was this equation of that it was just kind of like beating myself down for a long time. And I’m, you know, it’s just this alchemy of, I’m not gonna put it all on the church. I’m not gonna put it all on myself. It’s this alchemy of all of those things that like, and some of that I’m continuing to find and unpack. So I’m not done with that process, but I’m done with like, I think I’m at a point where it’s like, it’s not the main thing that I’m focusing on anymore. It’s not the main thing that I need to focus on. Like, the huge things that I’ve taken out of the suitcase in terms of shame and guilt and self-judgment, you know, I’ve taken ’em out. I’m looking at ’em. And I think, I know that it’s like at the correct pace, at the natural pace that it should happen, is dissolving. It’s dissipating. So I’m left with more of a where do I go? What am I putting in that suitcase of me, I guess to follow that analogy, right? So I’m done with saying I’m deconstructing. I can’t even remember what I said last year. I might have said the same thing last year. Doesn’t matter. I think that it’s, you know, I’m closer to… I don’t know, there’s just a different, I’m gonna say energy. There’s like a different vibe to just dealing with things that are inside of you and like cleaning it up or working through it, than becoming more, receiving things, being more open and moving forward. You know? Construction. Construction, a little bit of construction. Or should I say construction? Construction. Okay, so let’s talk about this construction. I think my spiritual practice right now is resolving to know nothing. Like, for me, I just, that’s just not, I’m just not interested in that. I’m just not interested in it. Now when you talk to me about your journey, I’m interested in that conversation. Like, last week, everything that you talked about, I was very interested in it for you. It’s not like, “I don’t want to hear about that.” But like when it comes to like my special, inner process for me, I’m at this point where I’m like, I don’t need to figure anything out because I still have, the reason why I’ve hated doing these, or not hated but had trepidation approaching these podcasts every year, is that I feel like I gotta have something to show. You know, there there’s some external that I’m answering to. And I’m just in a place right now where it’s like, nope. No. I don’t… I’m totally okay with what’s going on with me. And I’m not saying any of this… I’m really trying to catch myself any moment that I start to think how anybody could take it. And instead just saying I’m not, the main way that I interact with the world is not like, I don’t have, my brain doesn’t work in a way where like I like dig into something and then I got something powerful to say about it. And I think, but what I do have and realizing who I am and how I can love myself and how I can, how I wanna be in this world is something that I’ll get to. But it’s different than that for me. So it’s letting myself off the hook to say officially I resolve to know nothing, to have no defense. Like, a verbal defense for my belief, to have some coherent worldview where someone will say, “What a cogent boy is he.” You know? That’s just another level of pressure, and it just invites a lot of self-judgment, you know, that I’m not something that I feel like I should be. Should, should, should. But I am what I am, and I’m gonna be who I am and I’m gonna see where that goes. I don’t know if any of this is making any sense. What do you hear me saying? I hear you saying that you are discovering or embracing who you are and that there is a, all you can do is be the best you that you can be. And you’re kind of figuring out what that looks like. Yeah. I think I can get into some specifics that’ll like flesh it out a little bit more. You know, it’s… Having some certain tenets, like being present, receiving love, giving love. Like, when I feel like I’m in my sweet spot spiritually or in any way. Physically. When I feel like vibrant and healthy, the thing that I find myself saying is I got love to give. If you want it, here it is. Like, I mean, I just feel like there’s some, when I’m in that zone, it kind of feels magical. And it’s beautifully simple. And that’s what I say. I found myself having love to give. And nothing feels better. There’s a lot of things that feel good, but like that feels really good. That’s definitely up there. That’s definitely up there in terms of like having this secure sense of being, of being okay, of being good. That’s how it comes out. That’s how it comes outta my mouth. I got love to give. Maybe I’ll tattoo that on my body. In Elvish. In Elvish, everything’s gotta be in Elvish. But I gotta get a child to do it too. You know, one of my children. Me and Lily have an Elvish tattoo on our arm. If you don’t know, that’s what I’m referring to. So every time I get a Elvish tattoo on my body, I gotta get a child somewhere in the world to also get. I gotta get one of my offspring to also get it on their body. It’s kinda like Toms shoes. Yeah, it’s like Toms shoes. Or Bombas socks. I want to keep it simple, man. You know what? I… You know what? I’ll put it this way. I’m gonna… I am just, I’m inventing my own religion, okay? Uh-oh. This is what I’m gonna do. I’m doing this. I’m inventing my own religion that’s just for me. Uh-oh. And if you don’t want to hear it, don’t listen, ’cause I’m about to tell you about the religion that I’m inventing that’s just for me. It’s not for you. It’s not for anybody else. It can only be for me. It can’t be for anybody else ’cause it’s just something that I’m inventing just for me. I don’t want you to take any of it unless you, I don’t care if you take any of it, but like. Yeah, this is what I’m doing. And it’s real simple. I’ve written in my journal. I am, and I don’t know what I’m gonna call it, but it’s an animal religion. And it’s, I am… And it’s my animals. And I’m not worshiping my animals, but I’m taking inspiration from my animals for my spiritual practice. I won’t call it a religion. Spiritual practice. That sounds better. That’s good. So I’ve got a channeling my animals. Channeling, that doesn’t sound right either ’cause that sounds, ’cause when you channel something, you’re like speaking for ’em. I’m allowing my animals to inspire me. So I would like to take you through my animals. Okay. And what I’m learning from each of them. Okay? Yeah. And then maybe I’ll come up with a name for it, for this new spirituality. I gotta start with Jade. Nope, this is Jasper. Jasper, you got to go. He doesn’t get to start? Nope. Jade. Jade. I don’t think this is the type of thing I’m gonna travel to youth groups and teach. It’s just for me. Well, don’t speak so fast. Could be good money in it. Could be kinda awesome. Is this part of it? This is part of it. Jade is teaching me to just sit in it. Whatever it is, just sit in it. She knows how to curl up in the warm spots and just be there. She knows how to receive love. And she knows how to give love. And it’s simple. Like, she’ll just curl up. Receiving love and giving love happen at the same time with her. I don’t know what it is this year, but I’ve, like, I’ve just been obsessed with my doggies. It’s just ridiculous. It’s ridiculous. I love my dog so much. It’s just crazy. I think getting Jade’s face on my arm, it was like a self-fulfilling prophecy. I think it, like, it solidified something in me that was like, I don’t know what it means about me that I have my living dog’s face on my forearm. But I know that it is a representation of me. Like, I know that it means me. But I can’t tell you exactly what it means. Thank you, Jade. I’m not worshiping you. I’m just being inspired by you. Yeah, there’s a difference. There’s a difference. I want to… You know, we’re blessed by being loved by a lot of people. Like, as fans, you know? But also in our personal lives. Like, and there’s a difference between like just having that and receiving it. Like, there’s just a magic to like saying, I’m gonna receive love. Like, Lando comes up to me and he just wants to give me a hug. And there’s like, “Oh, I’m gonna hug you back “because I love you.” But then there’s a type of hug where there’s like, something’s being transferred. You know? Does this sound weird? I don’t know. It’s just like- Well, yes, but that doesn’t matter. You can be in a moment where it’s like, okay, I’m gonna And for me it still is a lot of breathing. Like, if you hug me, there might be like a deep breath, like a last breath. Like, “Oh, did he just die?” Like, that’s when it gets real good. And I think that when I sit with Jade, that’s what I’m reminded of that like, it can be simple. It can be boiled down to something that simple as like curling up in the now and being loved, which directly fuels, it’s like a cycle. You’re giving love, you’re getting love. That’s Jade. Go away, Jade. Come here, Jasper. Me and Jasper been taking some good walks. Sometimes Jade’s invited, but usually she’s not. Do you profess that you are a sinner? It does feel- It feels like I’m gonna baptize him. It does feel a little religious. Ceremonial. Jasper. Jasper inspires me. He’s not as comfortable as Jade right now. Get comfortable. He likes to be held in a different way. His legs are too long. He likes to be held like this. Jasper has this enthusiasm for beautiful stuff. Oh, that bird. I’m gonna chase that bird because it’s beautiful. Not because I want to eat it or there’s some sort of instinct, but the root- I don’t know why he does it. But I get so much joy from, ’cause I found this place where I can safely let him off the leash that’s like completely contained. And we go to this spot and he just has this enthusiasm that is contagious and this curiosity that is inspiring. So there’s a lot that he doesn’t know. He doesn’t have a lot figured out. And he doesn’t care at all. He doesn’t care. Because when he goes for a walk, he’s just like enthusiastically soaking it in like a sponge. And there’s always somewhere you can look to find something worth taking in. And he’s really good at that. He also likes to like pee on stuff a lot. Is that part of it? ‘Cause I might be interested. That’s not part of it. And, you know, it’s just being with my dogs is so fun for me and it’s so life giving. And so I’m just, I’m constructing a spiritual practice around it that grounds me is really all I’m saying. You know, it’s… And a lot of it is just, you know, the times when I’m alone, there’s a lot of times when I’m just sitting or doing something and it’s just, I got both the dogs, so I got both of those reminders. Good boy. I also have a cat. Saka. Saka is… He’s really, he’s coming around. Like, we’re trying to get Jade to, we’re not allowing Jade to run Saka off as much. And he’s coming around more and communing with us and receiving more scritches. But the thing about Saka is I just, he’s so fun to watch. Like, the best thing about a cat that I’ve found so far is that it’s just, they’re fun to spectate. So it’s not an up close and personal connection, but the things that I’m learning from Saka is the power of being quiet. You know, one of the things that I’m working on is, still working on, is like listening, not interrupting in conversations. And so Saka is kind of a, he kind of grounds me in that. Like, he’s really good at being quiet. I mean, he’s sneaky, but I think that ties into like the more powerful thing that I’m getting from Saka is the fact that he seems so centered. Like, maybe he’s self-centered. Maybe you could say that. And that’s not really what I’m focusing on, but just being centered. I think for me, not completely defining myself based on external relationships. This definitely comes home to roost for me in terms of that judgment thing where it’s… I’m being watched, you know. My entire upbringing there was this sense of I’m being watched and I need that external approval, you know, from God. Every night I need to, I gotta find the things to confess. You know, I’ve gotta clear the air, you know? I’ve gotta spiritually breathe out my sins and receive forgiveness and love from the Holy Spirit. I mean, that never worked for me back then. So now it’s a cat religion. I’m trying to just accept that I… It’s been really hard to convince myself that I’m a good person. It’s been really, really hard to do that. And it’s… You know, I discovered that therapy for me, like the way that I approached therapy was I just wanted my therapist to tell me that I was okay, that I was good. I wanted my therapist to do things that a therapist is not supposed to do. And thankfully he hasn’t done it. And I looked to, you know, sometimes I put Christy in a tough position. And, you know, it’s one thing to ask where it’s, I need you to determine if I am, you know, my center is like outside of myself. I need to be validated. You know, it’s one thing to have like a deep conversation with you and ask you for advice and like get your input. But like… And that’s good. But it’s another thing to get you to certify something about me that I think that I’ve needed to find for myself. And I think I’m doing a better job of that, of saying, okay, I know I’m getting to know myself in a new way, in kind of a, maybe a deeper level, I don’t know. And finding some security in that, you know, that it’s not about, like I said at the beginning of this, like even to our audience, like prove, like saying something that makes them feel a certain way about me coming to some conclusion about me, so that then when I see it in the comments, it validates what I hope is true about me. You know? That’s not what Saka does. You know, so I’ve just found that it’s just, it’s this beautiful creature in my house that can bring me back to that. Who am I? Who do I want to be? What are my reasons for myself? They don’t have to be shared with anybody necessarily. I even have a healthy separation from, you know, some people might talk about, there’s like codependence at play here. I don’t know the terms, you know. But it’s like having a healthy separation where I end and Christy begins, you know? Where I end and you begin in our relationship. And I am seeing that there’s like a, it’s very freeing to do that. Like, when I find myself, that’s like centered where my, I’m not giving somebody else power to dictate what I think about myself. It gives me a freedom to be present and to not only love people but also enjoy other people’s moments. And especially like for us, like when so much of everything has both of our names on it, like, I’ve found that the moments when I feel the most centered, I feel this level of security that like, like, I enjoy where I’ve stopped and you’ve started and kind of spectating that in your work. And that just feels really good, you know? So the cat brings me back to that. I think I need more animals. Well, I was gonna ask you that. Because that’s all I got in terms of animals. Because it feels like the- I think that may be all I need though. The inevitable outcome of practicing this religion is that you’re gonna become one of those houses that’s like a zoo. And this one does this for me, and this one does this for me. Well, just the other day I heard Christy talking to you about some litter of puppies that somebody had that was like, no, it was a bunch of puppies they were walking around with in the neighborhood or something. I don’t know. We’re in a holding pattern. It’s not gonna happen because I can’t… Well, can you learn things from other animals? Yeah. I betcha I can learn some stuff from your animals. Well, not just other people’s animals, but you could also go to the zoo. It’s like who is this man that has an annual pass to the zoo that just comes and sits in front of the ostriches? Right. What are you doing, sir? I’m learning from the ostriches. He dresses weird, but it’s for totally other reasons. You could just observe other animals. Well, you know what? Actually, I think I’ve just developed a theory. You know, every once in a while, probably every day, if not every week or month, there is someone in the world who enters an enclosure at a zoo. And I believe those people are independently practicing your religion. Now it makes total sense. Why did this guy go into the lion exhibit? Because he’s practicing Linkism. He’s like, I can only learn so much from this lion by sitting here on this bench next to this grandma who doesn’t even wanna be here. I must stroke his mane. And then next thing you know, you’re in the moat. And then Harambe is bringing you up and embracing you. That could be your future. You’re gonna have to leash me at the zoo. Rhett, I’m ready to go to the zoo again. You could also be a nature photographer or a bird watcher. What can you learn from birds? Maybe that’s what bird watchers have been doing all this time. Maybe. Yeah, I could do that. I could be that. To bring it back into the human realm, I was listening to Brene Brown interview at the end of last year. Father Richard Rohr. Yeah. He’s a father of what? What is it? I think he’s a Jesuit. I mean, he’s a Catholic. Okay. And what is Brene Brown? She’s a Texan. I think she is a… I don’t know, I think maybe deconstructed evangelical? I’m not sure. She’s got a lot of good stuff to say. I’m not a, you know, so I just found, well, here’s the one thing I wanted to highlight from the part two of their December 2022 conversation. She asked him like, “What’s the good word?” I don’t even know what that question means. Apparently he did. And he was like, “I’m just spitballing here,” like off the top of his head. And he said, I took a screenshot of the transcript. So he replied, he said, “The good word is, whatever, I’m just stabbing at this, “but whatever points you toward “what we call the three transcendentals “in scholastic philosophy. “The good, the true, and the beautiful. “The good, the true, and the beautiful. “If it points you toward those, it’s a good word.” And I’m gonna read the second half of his quote in a second, but I just want to camp out there for a second. Like, “The good, the true, and the beautiful. “If it points you towards those, it’s a good word.” I just, it’s, okay. I like, that’s simple. That’s like, just kind of like, you know, it’s been, that’s been cooking, that’s just boiled down. That’s one of those sauces that’s just, that’s a good tasting sauce, you know. That’s like, you know, what’s that pot of stuff? The pork content. You know, it’s like, it’s been boiling for a long time. It’s just simmering. And it’s just, okay, easy, simple. Maybe not easy. Simple. I like that. The good, it’s kind of like the bold and the beautiful. You know, the soap opera. Sort of. But there’s only two of those. “The good, the true, and the beautiful.” And if, you know, when I say, okay, so the true in that, like if I say, well, I resolve to not know anything, well, okay, I’m willing to fudge a little bit. Like, I’m willing to focus on things that I know are true, you know? I like how you talk about true stuff. I like how you talk about stuff that you’ve convinced, that you like, okay, this is true. Like, these are things, I’ve nailed this stake into the solid place. And I’m gonna hold onto it. So I’m convinced of this. Like, and there’s… I like it when you do that. I don’t do that much of that, but I acknowledge that, oh, okay, if it’s true, let’s go with it. If it’s good, let’s go with it. It’s beautiful, let’s go with it. But then he said an interesting thing, like right on the heels of it, off the top of his head. And again, Brene Brown, she’s an author. She’s a speaker. She’s not funny. Well, she’s funny. She can be. Well, I wouldn’t call her a comedian, right? She’s not a comedian. She has a great sense of humor. She’s got a good sense of humor. But I don’t think that accounts for why he would just go here. Maybe it was just for me. I don’t think- That’s a healthy way to think about it. Yeah, I don’t think it was, but I do find it interesting. This is the next thing he says, after he says, “The good, the true, and the beautiful. “If it points you towards those things, it’s a good word. “That’s why I often think some comedy, “some is just teaching you how to be cynical. “It doesn’t point you towards the good, the true, “and the beautiful. “And I enjoy ‘Seinfeld’ as much as the next person, “but just when you go on for half an hour “with cynical remarks about everything, “you destroy the contemplative mind. “You can’t just see the good that’s there, “the truth that’s there.” And Brene said, “The beauty.” Now “Seinfeld” is our favorite show of all time, right? And we’re comedians, so I’m like- Some might say. Some might say. But I felt like it was just, it was weird that he used comedy as the one place that he could have gone. of all the places he could have gone to illustrate the good, the true, and the beautiful, he used comedy and he used “Seinfeld.” He throws “Seinfeld” under the bus even though he’s a fan. And it along with a number of other things that have happened to me and to us and conversations we’ve had over the past few months, I’m picking up where your conversation left off last time, Okay? Gaining a deeper appreciation for how our creative expression is a spiritual exercise and how it touches people. I would never have said that what we do, and I’ll put a lot of this just in terms of me, but like, you know, I think so much of it applies to you too, but this is my podcast. Episode. Episode, yeah. This episode. I never would’ve said that what I do and the content that we make is medicine. That it has healing properties. But we’ve been told that for years. “I was in the hospital and I discovered you guys. “I made it through a tough time because of you guys. “You are my comfort viewing five days out of the week. “You’re my safe escape “from what life is throwing at me right now. “Or the aspect of my life that I will never be able “to get away from.” There’s like a, “I actually do a little bit “when I’m hanging out with you guys.” And I feel like we’ve known that to 80%, but I feel like in the last, I don’t know, in the last few weeks or so, I feel like we’ve gained just this deeper appreciation that kind of maybe take it to 95% of like, wow, we’ve just… What we thought was a byproduct of what we do might just have been the product the whole time. And it’s felt so good to realize that, to realize that, you know, if I’ve had a hard time just being convinced that I’m a good person, well it turns out that it’s been happening. It’s been true all along. I think it’s been true more and more because I do think I’m on a positive journey, you know? So I’m just extremely moved by the fact that what we are doing, it doesn’t have the appearance of, you know, this groundbreaking, earth shattering book or speech, but it’s… I don’t know. It’s just as, it’s been just as special to people. Like, I’m receiving that love and I’m giving that, I feel like I have more confidence to just myself be if weird is me, you know? All of that stuff is just, I think it’s coming together on a deeper level for me that’s like… The gifts that I have are gifts to give. And I understand that I’ve been doing that, we’ve been doing that, but I understand it more now. So like what does that mean? What does that mean for what’s next? I feel very confirmed that I’m in the right place, you know, that I’m doing the right work for me. And then it, you know, and then it comes out. It feels so good that like it then from that position, it comes out, it overflows in a way that like helps people, reaches people. Well, I think that we have been slow to realize that and embrace that, the fact that our work is medicine, because that is not how entertainment in general is thought. That’s never how I thought about entertainment, right? Yeah. I mean, not only do we create a business around entertainment, which like I talked about last week, sometimes business interests compromise the creative voice and the creative act, but also so much of a lot of people’s inclination for creating something is to bring the attention to themselves. I mean, that’s what we always talk about it. It’s like we just wanted to be the center of attention. Oh yeah. You know, and I think that is a big part of it. And that’s a big part of it for a lot of people in comedy. Not just being the center of attention, but also deflection and, you know, and putting on a shell and putting on a personality to not have to encounter pain or whatever. And so because, and then the reward system, the incentive, is money and attention, validation that you’re talking about, whether it be going to a list of, you know, a collection of comments and trying to garner your self-worth from what people say about you. There’s a lot of incentives there that distract from being able to just realize, even though yes, many people have told us, this thing that you created, it wasn’t about you create something so I can admire you and your talent or give you an award, but it literally is the creative act being experienced by someone else is, in some ineffable way, is healing. And I thought, I think we both thought, right, for, like we would look at, well, you know, I watch stuff on HBO, I watch these scripted series, or I watch these, like these well-crafted movies and they like, they move you and they can change your mind and they can change your heart and they can make you cry and they can connect with your soul, again like plug into you. Like, that’s art. What we do is dumb. What we do is silly. What we do is funny. And it’s not heavy, so it’s not meaningful. It’s not… And, you know, we sit there and we’ve been wanting to do that so bad. Well, we want to tell stories and we want, you know, ’cause that’s how you capture people and their imagination and move people. And we gotta do that, so let’s go after that. And then it’s like, meanwhile all along, we were already doing it. We’re already doing it. I’m not saying that we can’t script something, that we can’t go after those things ’cause it still would be very fun. But like, if we ever did something like that again, it wouldn’t be for lack of already doing it. Like, I just have, I don’t know. You know, we’ve been as close as you can be to what we’re doing. So it’s like, it’s really hard to see from the inside out. So I think when I look at our work, I’ve just been able to see it with fresh eyes and just, it was just kind of coincidental that it happened. It wasn’t planned. I just feel very fortunate that it happened. And I don’t believe that it’s just a, well, it is a reflection of just who we are, but it’s more than that. Like, is there something else going on here? Is there something else at work? It’s like, we didn’t do it on purpose. So maybe so. That would be… I’m open to that, you know? I kind of lean towards that being the conclusion, that there’s something else at work here. You know, I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m kind of like building us up as like something awesome. Again, I think this is just, this is a conversation that is really for me and you. If people, you know, anybody listening- So we shouldn’t release this? Well, they can do whatever they want with it. But like, I would… So I’m hoping that people don’t think of it as like, “Oh my god, these guys, they think they’re saviors.” Hell no. I just feel very, when you find that you’re… Me being me and not being what I’m not and being what I am is a sweet spot. Only I can be me and I can let go of the things that I’m not going, that aren’t me, you know? Some of which are you by the way, so it’s a great partnership. I’m just saying it feels good. It feels really good to be of service and to find more security in myself. And I don’t know. I don’t feel like I’m saying anything very cogent. But I feel very- That’s what I want, I wanted to comment on that because you said that at the top. I don’t know how you said it. You said something about that you’re not good at thinking something and then communicating it. But I think that this podcast is evidence of the contrary. Well, I… Not that you’re- I couldn’t write it down. Not that you’re interested in hearing that. That’s not why you did that. I wouldn’t give a speech. But I think that this is gonna be very helpful for a lot of people. And again, that’s not the point of it, but I’m just saying we do release this into the world, and I do think people will benefit from it. I would love that. I also think, I mean, I didn’t wanna interrupt you. Of course I’m thinking things the whole time. I think I’ve gone through everything I wanted to say. Oh, I had one story. But yeah. It’s related to that. And then you can kind of put that on it, but like, the story is related to being, well, I’ll just tell the story. Back when we were on staff with Campus Crusade and every year we would MC the Christmas time conference, the Christmas conference we called it. Should’ve called it Christmas time. But then we changed the name of the conference to, we got a new director of the conference to come in, and he called, he was like, “We’re gonna change the name of it to Encounter, “and we’re gonna like rebuild this conference “from the ground up.” And so we got together, we as the MCs. I forgot all about this, And our good friend Mark as like a logistics director of the main stage show, and then Chris as the director of the entire conference. And then this other guy, who shall remain nameless, he was the music leader, like the praise and worship music guy this year. And, you know, we had probably done it six years by this point. And I think it was his first or second year as the music guy. And Mark as the logistics guy, it was like his 10th or 12th year. And Chris, it was like his first year, but he’s like a big ideas guy. And we sat in a room and we said everything that we’ve done every year and we set is the template for the main show program, we’re gonna throw that out and we’re just gonna rebuild it. And so like, everything was being reinvented. And we were designing everything for like this immersive experience to encounter God. And at one point the music guy turns to us and he says something to the effect of, “Why is what you do important here?” Do you remember that? Oh yeah. And I remember, and of course you would make announcements, we would make funny videos, we would write funny songs, we would have funny crowd interaction. We did comedy. If you removed it from the conference, there was nothing Christian or religious about it. And as we’re rebuilding this thing from the ground up where people want to encounter God, you know, he was just, I don’t know if he was doing it for effect. I don’t know if he was doing it to make a point. I don’t know if he was doing it for criticism. I don’t know why he was doing it, but I felt like when he asked the question, I was caught. It was like, oh no, you got me. You know? I felt completely like rejected, just ’cause to me it was like, oh, you’re insinuating that we don’t need to be a part of this, that we are not a contributing factor to the main goal here. “What is it you do here?” And just for a little more color on that, I believe a big motivation, whether it was conscious or not, for him to bring this up and see things in this way, was the pattern that was happening over the course of the ’90s and as we got into the late ’90s and the early 2000s, what was happening with Passion, namely, right? So Passion was a giant, I don’t know if they still do it, they probably do. Passion was a big annual conference where a bunch of Christian college students came together and, you know, characterized by like praise and worship music and speakers and stuff. And it was becoming the thing that we were losing students to. And Passion was very serious. It was very spiritual, it was very deep. And it did not have this, I’m not saying that somebody might not say something funny, but it wasn’t centered around these two comedians who are doing these ridiculous videos and getting people up on stage and cutting their hair over the course of a week, or making them drink a gallon of milk every day and try to gain 12 pounds in one week. We did a bunch of weird shit. And there was a seriousness to that movement that was happening that we were beginning to sense. And I remember thinking, well maybe this whole like really lighthearted comedy thing was just something that happened in the early ’90s in Christian circles, and like it’s phasing out and we’ve got to adjust with it. So I think that he had been to that conference and seen the way they do things, and then you compare it to the way that we’re up there being fools and it felt different and maybe even irreverent. And I didn’t know what to say. I couldn’t put a defense into words. And I don’t remember what you said, but I have to believe that you definitely, you probably had a much more, whether you said it or not, like you had a much more offensive reaction than I had a more defensive reaction. I don’t know that you were as phased by it as I was, but like, you know, it’s just, I didn’t see, I couldn’t articulate what I could feel. And that was, we’re an important part of this. We’re bringing something, we have a gift to give here. And it is important. I mean, you know, there were other people at the table, making decisions more than the people I mentioned, I think. And so we ended up having some nights that were like completely serious. But yeah, we still had our fun. We weren’t kicked to the curb. It was just one question from one person and then it, you know, but I don’t know. The echo of that memory came back to me now as like I’m still owning and processing the fact that, you know, we’re in this… We’re exercising something that’s like a spiritual practice in our level in, you know, like, in the way that we do things. I think it’s… I don’t know exactly what I’m saying, but maybe I’m saying, first of all, it can all be spiritual. You know, you hear about the monks talking about like, you know… Maybe it’s the Buddhist saying of like, the carry water saying. I can’t remember what it is right now. Talking about do this, carry water, do that. It’s a Buddhist saying, or like whatever, you know, everything can be a spiritual practice if it’s, you know, like nurturing your plants like Christy does or like dusting your shelves. You know, it can all be a spiritual practice. No, that’s not part of my religion. I just feel… It feels good to be able to say these things and come to these realizations about the opportunity we have. But then at the same time, I don’t feel an ounce of pressure. I don’t feel an ounce of external pressure or just like, okay, now you gotta live up to this shit you’re talking. I do not feel that. I’m not gonna let myself feel that because it’s like that takes me out of this sweet spot of like nobody’s watching. I know that ain’t true, but like I need to, you know, I need to dance like nobody’s watching, you know? I need to feel the rain on my skin. And if I do that, if I’m true to that, I feel like good things will happen. I agree. Yeah. Thanks, Jenna. “Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. “After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.” It’s a zen Buddhist phrase, emphasizing the need for committing to and thriving during the process of any pursuit. Chop wood, carry water. I think this is a good religion, Link. Spiritual practice. I think that… You know, I think that one of the things that you’re kind of, that you’re hinting at, which is so important. There’s something… You know, observing your animals and learning from your animals, I mean, first of all, this is something that, you know, it is an age old practice. Sorry, I mean, you didn’t invent it. But that’s a good thing. And I think that one of the reasons that it’s so powerful is because you are an animal. Yeah. And I think that there is, you know, again, you’re right that, and I get in my, I mean, you weren’t saying this. I have a tendency to, I hear what you’re saying and then the way that I work, me being myself is hearing the things that you’re saying and synthesizing it and creating a way of expressing it and thinking about it. That’s how I sort of latch onto things and carry them forward for me personally. But this is, and it’s ironic because the observation that I’m making is that when we are more like our animals in the ways that you just described, we get out of our way. Yeah. In the way that we tend to get in the way of ourselves and having true experiences that you can’t, I mean, I’m sure there is some sort of truth, some combination of whether it’s all natural phenomena or whether there’s some sort of supernatural thing that’s happening. I think the point that I hear you making is that parsing that and understanding that is actually has nothing to do with experiencing it fully. Yeah. And a lot of times trying to parse it and define it, analyze it, systematize it, takes all the beauty and even some of the truth out of it. And the goodness. And this is really real for us in our background, because we come from, you know, a religious tradition that was systemizing God. Yeah. And then within this system of this organized religion, we were in one of the very specific strands that was the most organized of the organized religions. When you start talking about reformed thinking, I mean, we had a book that we kept next to our Bible called “Systematic Theology.” Yeah. And that used to make me feel good. From Wayne Grudem, right? Yeah. And I think that the idea was that this guy, by consulting a bunch of other really smart guys over the course of history, was gonna help you understand these things that God was communicating in the Bible and help you systematize it, help you organize it, help you cross reference it. And this is attractive to certain minds. This is attractive to my mind. But in a lot of ways, whatever truth and beauty and goodness there is and whatever is happening with God, I tend to think that this is not adding, systematizing it to that degree is not adding anything and most likely it’s taking a lot away. And I haven’t, like, I felt good about having it and reading it, but like I’ve never been able to like then say it or like… My brain hasn’t worked that way where it’s like I would retain it in a way that like, I’m like actually utilizing it specifically. I feel like this is kind of… I’m at a point now where it’s like, yeah, it’s not me to be able to figure out these things or like to be able to like turn around and tell somebody about it or to like write an essay about it that would move somebody or change somebody’s mind. For me, I’m realizing that that’s just not in my repertoire. But I shouldn’t feel bad about that. I shouldn’t feel guilty about it, you know? Because you have that ability, there might be a different struggle there for you. For me, it’s just kinda like the freedom of letting myself off the hook, that like I don’t have to know and I don’t have to feel bad for not knowing and I don’t have to feel bad when somebody asks me that. Like, I can’t even begin to put something together that’s like a response to that if it was a question or whatever, you know? And I just think it puts me, so… That’s another type of centering for me that’s like, oh, who I am and what I’m able, how I interact with everything. I can be centered and like, okay, that’s just, I’m not gonna go down that path because I’m gonna come back with nothing anyway except guilt that I don’t have anything. Well, and back to the animals. Animals other than Lassie, when they experience something, they just come to you and they have a way of being that they cannot explain, right? And I think what I’m saying, and this is for, and I’m saying this to myself because whatever the truth is that exists because I do believe there is a truth that exists, there is something that’s happening, right? There is something that you are experiencing. There’s something that I’m experiencing. There’s something that we are experiencing. There is truth to the fabric of the universe that we may or may not ever know. But the very language that we are communicating in right now is already at least one layer removed from the experience and is already making it a bastardized version of it. If there’s some spiritual thing that you can experience, the moment that you put it into words, you have changed it. Yeah, that feels right. And so a dog doesn’t do that. No. A dog is just experiencing. In fact, a dog doesn’t even have the ability, as far as I know, to have a memory of the experience. They’re so in the moment that they’re just kind of in, they’re having the experience from. And I think that- That’s right. That’s what I hear you getting at. And so I think it’s just a recognition that a lot of these things, like our need to understand and, you know, build a system to remember things, to be able to explain ourselves, to be able to defend ourselves, which is a big thing for me is wanting to appear credible and being able to be understood. These are all things that are potentially hindrances to actually experiencing the spiritual. Yeah, and it’s tough for you ’cause you’re good at it. It’s tough for me ’cause I wasn’t, I’ve never been good at it. So we each have our own way to get to, it seems like we want to get to the same place, but we have different things that we’ve needed to get over in order to get there. Well, and that’s the whole idea of there being more of a stillness and a passivity and a reception of whatever it is that’s happening. Because even in these conversations that we’re having about whatever is going on with us creatively and making the connection between the creative act and the spiritual practice, not having to define it, plan it, execute it before it sort of reveals itself. And that’s a faith practice. Okay. You know? Ha! Yeah. Yeah. And that’s very difficult for me because the moment that I start realizing something, I begin building something. You know, I begin writing something, I begin developing something. And in one sense, that’s who I am and I can’t stop that. If something comes to me, I’m going to try to understand it and try to put it in some form and kind of throw it back. But there are certain times we’re just sitting and just being like, okay, I’m sort of observing what is going on? And we’ve got some good friends who are helping us kind of process this stuff too, in a way that has been comforting for me. They’re not gurus. They’re just good friends who have creative minds as well and are, you know, on their own journey. But I think that being able to, when we see something that we get excited about and it’s like, what is it that’s happening and what is it that we’re experiencing and how does this translate into the things that we bring into the world? Whether that’s using our comedy for healing or just creating for creativity’s sake, whatever that might be. Being okay with not, being okay with being a dog, you know? Yeah. And just being like, well, what would Jasper do? What would Sean? Well, Sean would shit in the house. So that’s what I’ve, if I was to follow your religion, I would be shitting and pissing in my house without regard to anything. I would also be biting people regularly, and I would be barking at everything that wasn’t exactly normal. So I don’t wanna learn everything from dogs. Nope, nope. But yeah, I think that, I’m very hopeful and excited. I mean, I feel, you know, I think that we articulated in different ways and we’re coming to different realizations because we are different people, but there is a synchronicity to what’s happening that is exciting to me. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just… People think different things about the word happy. But right now I am, I think I’m the happiest I have ever been in my entire life. And it’s okay if that, I don’t expect this level of happiness to continue forever. But like I’m not gonna forget it and I’m very grateful for it, but I think I am the happiest I’ve ever been in my entire life. Isn’t that crazy? I’m glad I’m here for it. Isn’t that crazy? Isn’t that wild? Isn’t that special? Isn’t that something? Or nothing. Well… There it is, there it is. Let’s bring it to a close. Ah, can I make a recommendation? Let me know, #EarBiscuits, what you think about this, or I mean, you can tell us what you think or how you’re processing this by leaving us a voicemail. 1-888-EARPOD1. Or you can just talk to somebody that you love. About this or whatever. Man, I got a lot of good stuff that I want to recommend. What am I gonna do? All right, I’m gonna do this one. The album is called “Mother Earth’s Plantasia.” Doesn’t that seem like the one? ‘Cause if Christy was giving this podcast, she might be talking about her plant religion. And I found this for her. This album was released in 1976 by Mort Garson. Mort Garson, who was like a digital music pioneer. But he made this album for plants. Yeah. But you’ll like it too. It’s 30 minutes, 51 seconds. Plantasia. You’re welcome. Hey guys, I just listened to your Rhett’s deconstruction and just wanted to say thank you. I grew up in the South watching you guys and out of the Bible belt in a pastor’s home, and I’ve been able to explore my spirituality a little bit, and I don’t know what the hell is going on, but it’s really comforting to hear your stories. And Rhett, I appreciate you saying what you said. It’s helped me put to words some of the things that I’ve been feeling, so I appreciate you guys being vulnerable. Love you, guys. To watch more “Ear Biscuits,” click on the playlist on the right. To watch the previous episode of “Ear Biscuits,” click on the playlist to the left. And don’t forget to click on the circular icon to subscribe. If you prefer to listen to this podcast, it’s available on all your favorite podcast platforms. Thanks for being your Mythical best.