EB 415: Our Spiritual Deconstruction AMA

Welcome to Ear Biscuits, the podcast where two lifelong friends talk about life for a long time. I’m Link. And I’m Rhett. This week at The Roundtable of Dim Lighting, we’re going to be hearing from my friend here, the Linkster. Mm-hmm. Who’s gonna give us what I understand is a brief update. Yes. I mean- It’s what you told me. Earth shattering, yet succinct. When it comes to my spiritual- Your spiritual situation. My spiritual situation. And we are also, because Link informed me that that was going to be rather brief, we are also going to be answering some of the questions that you responded to our prompt with when we asked you if you had any questions about our deconstruction. So we’ve got some voicemails, we got some excretions. Pointed questions. We’ll be going through. That we are going to answer as honestly as possible. Of course, this is coming on the heels of last week’s episode where Rhett gave his four year anniversary update of what you’re worshiping these days. For me- Careful. You know, I thought back on my update a year ago and I realized that’s kind of my update now. If you want to know where I’m at spiritually, I’m still worshiping my dogs. I mean, I’m not worshiping my dogs, but, you know, just a very simplified approach to embracing love, receiving love, giving love, cultivating gratitude, remaining curious, remaining grateful. And it’s working for me. I think that your impulse, as demonstrated last week, as we talked about, is you have such a fascination and an interest with the specifics of belief systems, faith, how different perspectives and philosophies impact your own thinking. And you’re a research oriented person. Always have, always will be. That’s not really how I’m wired. I really enjoy the conversations and the connection around those things. And I enjoyed hearing your update last week. I think the main reason for me was the connection aspect of it. That’s what drives a lot more of my motivation, is, I think, experience and also connection with people and also connection with myself. So I think there’s still a lot of buttons that are pushed in me when I start to talk about churchy things or my experience in the evangelical church, being a Christian. You know, all of that to me is like, it doesn’t invigorate me. It kind of does a bit of the opposite. I’ve been doing work to like, I picture this, my brain is a plate. A flat plate. A flat plate. And it’s like, I just want it to be, as dumb as it sounds, I want it to be empty of the burden of certain types of thoughts. The way that I interact with, I’ll just say churchy stuff. When it comes to belief, it tends to engage the part of me that makes me less happy, more uneasy. And because it’s getting me reacquainted with like practices that I’m shedding, that as I’ve spoken about a lot, have to do with like shame and guilt. And I’m still doing work and still finding places where it’s like, oh yeah, that’s kind of a lingering dynamic at play here for me. And so my exercise is shedding it and not, I just don’t have a lot of interest. You know, it’s not that I don’t have beliefs and I do think that some of this will come out in the questions that we have, but like, it’s just not, it’s not my bag of chips anymore. When it’s separated from, I think when it comes to you and I, the thing that engages me is the connection part of it and being able to discuss it. So it’s like, this is not a chore. Last week was not a chore. But now I think when we talk about these things and it’s more of, I think we’re both recognizing that it’s a fascination on your part and there’s certain ways that I can talk about it, especially with you, that I can get a kick out of where we come from. Versus, you know, I wouldn’t, I would not sign up for some sort of gathering, some gathering of philosophy or especially Christian debate. It’s like, I just don’t, I just don’t really care for that. I don’t care for it. Do you see a distinction? ‘Cause I mean, I totally get like lack of interest in quote, “churchy things.” Maybe this’ll come out as you answer some of these questions. In terms of spirituality in a broad sense, outside of any sort of structured way of thinking about it or using any like God terminology. Yeah. I think for me, it’s like I, I think what I’ve characterized in the past as an openness is still there. But I think it’s more of a novel curiosity than a, like a motivated, like really engaged questions on my brain that I’m interested in potential answers to questions. I’m just, I’m more at a, I’m not really in that place. Well, I guess what I’m asking is, because I think my suspicion is that we represent two, not ends of a spectrum, but there’s a lot of people who identify with your experience and your disposition, right? And so the thing that I am curious about is for those people who are like, yeah, when Rhett starts talking about these detailed things, I tune out, I don’t listen, which I totally get. I realize there’s a niche for certain people. But what is spiritual growth for somebody like that? And so, I mean, I think that’s my question for you because, well, that’s my question with nothing added. Yeah, I think first of all, there’s still like, like I wanna read into the question and it’s like, well, I believe that I had a sense of what the answer that I would have wanted to give in the past was, well, if I don’t say that spiritual growth is an active value of mine, if I start saying things that make it seem like it’s not, then does that make me seem like someone who’s not thoughtful or someone who is not introspective or someone who’s not… And so, I kinda get caught up in that when I give my answer, but I think my honest answer is, the academic side of belief is just not something that I’m interested in, but there are other aspects of it, like experiencing the unknown, being open to the fact that there might be a higher power or something that we don’t understand, like dimensions beyond us. Say it as wild as you want or say that it’s God. To me, it’s like, that is fascinating, but in my heart of hearts, I just kinda think it’s most likely just gonna be conjecture and a lot of times, this reduces us, like an academic conjecture and that just doesn’t resonate with me. So, the thing that I do, like my spiritual practice, I guess if you were to call it that, I don’t think of it that way, but I’m still engaged in being the best version of myself, and when I reduce things to like the love component of it all, it’s like when things are simple for me, and that’s what I described a year ago, it put me in a good place to say, OK, this is what growth is for me. It’s finding my place in the world, finding my place in relationships, finding my place within myself and being secure that, spoiler alert, if this is it and there’s nothing else, that I’m good with it. And I think we’ll get into some of that stuff when we’re answering some of the questions, but does that answer your question? Yeah, I think it does. I guess what I’m, because I know that you are a thoughtful person who cares about your own personal growth, when you talk about spiritual things, I hear a distinction being made, like spiritual things are things about supernatural things that you can’t know anything about, or academic conversation about those things. Yeah. And I guess what I’m saying is that, and I think it’ll come out in some of these questions, I’m interested in those academic discussions about those things, but that’s actually not spirituality for me. Yeah. And also, conjecture about the unknown, or thinking about the mystery of the universe or the mystery of God, that’s spiritual in nature, but it’s so impractical. I can’t experience that in a way that I can communicate with you or anybody about. So then spirituality for you, if I understand what you talked about last week, was still an active pursuit where you’re taking steps forward towards ideas. So this is actually, I’m glad we’re talking about this, because I think that my update was much more about how I’m thinking about that world, because that was so much of my process of, I thought my way out of it in a lot of ways, and I still have a way that I’m organizing my thoughts about that, but there’s still this heart that remains that is hungry for a spiritual experience, and I think is having a spiritual experience. I didn’t actually get into too many of the details about, what is my spiritual life look like now? It was more like, here’s the update of how I’m thinking about these things. Some people who’ve been very influential in helping me understand where I’m at, and then responding to that specific, being featured in the book. Yeah. Because if I started talking about my spiritual experience, A, it’s much harder to talk about because it’s harder to describe, and B, it would have been a two-hour thing. Let’s go there for a little bit, because for me, I would say that right now, I’m doing a whole lot of work on myself, right? You know, when I’m in therapy every week, there’s a lot of exploring and understanding and adjusting, you know, and there’s a lot of, I think that is, it’s a metaphysical practice. There’s a spiritual component to it, I think. Now, when it comes to God, I feel like if they, they know where to find me, you know? I’m not going out and looking for them, or her, or him, or whatever, you know? I don’t find myself doing it. And, I think that I’ve just given myself permission to say, yeah, it’s like I am, I’m open, and I’m not horribly selfish, right? So it’s like, I think that I’m ready enough if God wants to, God knows where to find me. But I’m not going out searching and looking under a bunch of metaphysical rocks for that. Case in point, prayer. Like when we were going to Joshua Tree with my scooter club friends, we were looking at the weather and we were joking about the weather. And I was like, you know what, maybe we should all, we were all hanging out like planning what we were gonna do a week before we went. And I was like, maybe we should all pray. And I didn’t get struck by lightning. It was a joke, right? But I just, it was an experiment for me to say like, I was just curious how they would respond. ‘Cause I’m like, that’s what I would have done, right? That’s what we did for our entire adolescence growing up. You care about anything, you pray about it. It’s like, what if I pray that God will give us a wonderful stargazing experience. And then it became this running joke when it was raining cats and dogs at like- You should have prayed. Oh, well, I did do a little prayer. Yeah, but you did it in mockery of God. So God gave you rain. I wasn’t mocking. Well, maybe I was, maybe I was, but then you know what? We had the most beautiful- Calm after the storm. Moonrise came out. And I was like, is this the moment that I changed my mind? And it wasn’t. Maybe. It wasn’t, I’m just like, I’m sorry, I just have a sense of humor about all of it. But you know, it’s like- No, that’s great. I can’t bring myself to pray sincerely, I just can’t. No, no, I think the thing that I’m getting, the thing that I’m getting at- So, do you, is that your spiritual practice is really all I was asking. Do I pray? Yeah, have you given it a shot? Oh, I’ve probably prayed 10 times in the past five years. Was it out of anguish? No. Was it out of any curiosity? It’s just, when you were a Christian and you spoke to God a lot in the past, like I did, you start, once you’re no longer a Christian and you don’t know what you think about those things, and you don’t know what you think about God, you often realize that the tenor of the conversation with God is very much like people who just talk to themselves. Like if I just, I’m talking to myself and working through something, it was kind of like I was doing that when I was praying in a lot of ways. Yeah. And so there have been a couple of times when I realized I’m kind of just having a conversation with myself, but what would it feel like if I were to turn this as if I’m speaking to God about this thing, and I’ve done that without reservation. OK. But you told me that Huberman was praying now. He’s been praying, he just started talking about it. He just started talking about praying. It’s like, OK, so now you got this guy. Yeah, Christianity’s back, man. This Mr. Science guy, “take my advice, “listen to my podcast.” By the way, just as a quick tangent, I can’t listen to any of those podcasts for the same reason that I don’t like to talk about churchy stuff. It’s that brain plate thing that like, the way that I engage with information that’s like, OK, this is the truth about this, and this is how you should take action on it. There’s so much of that on podcasts on the internet that it’s like I’m allergic to it. And I know that makes me sound stupid, but it’s just not, I don’t have a positive internal relationship with, I think it’s like authority and answers, especially when there’s a lot more questions than are being presented. I get that, I totally get that. So I don’t listen to him, but apparently he’s praying now. Or has been talking about it. So I think the thing, again, the reason I’m asking these questions is ’cause I’m trying to benefit the person out there who relates to the way that you’re talking about it, right? I hope what’s happening is that somebody’s like, yeah, I don’t see the big deal about it either. It’s just some people major in religion, and some people major in engineering, and some people are policemen. But let me just get this thought out. But we’re all spiritual. What does that mean? What I don’t want to happen, what I don’t want for you is I don’t want the fact that you had a negative experience with religion, with Christianity, whatever you wanna call it. Like your former faith doesn’t get to dictate your spiritual experience now. And so if you wanna have an experience of God or of just self growth, and you wanna put it in spiritual terms, you shouldn’t feel like I’m not allowed to do that because somebody said that it means this thing. ‘Cause I think that happens with a lot of people. I know the kind of person that you are, and I know the kind of things that you’re interested in. And I think at the end of the day, while I might be out here thinking about something in some like academic sense, that’s actually not my spiritual experience, and that’s not my spiritual viewpoint. We’ll get into some of that with answering these questions. What do you think mine is then? ‘Cause I do, I mean, there’s, and again, it’s like a lot of what I said last time, when I’m using my dogs as a, as an inspiration point for being- That was your spiritual update last time, and what I’m saying is that it’s valid, because the thing that religions do is they box in and systematize the thought process around something that, if there is any spiritual truth that exists, the moment that you begin talking about it, the moment that you begin writing about it, with every word, you are one step further away from whatever truth existed. So the Bible itself, whatever truth the Bible is trying to capture with every word that was written is one step further away from whatever truth. Whatever Jesus actually said, when somebody started thinking about it and writing it down, they were, with every word, they were one step further away from whatever he actually did say. OK. And so what I’m trying to communicate to you and to anyone who thinks like you is that these things are not off limits to you because- I don’t believe that they are. And I don’t wanna mischaracterize. My spiritual practice is being as present as possible, and so I guess I’m like a backdoor Buddhist. Right. You know, kinda. It’s just, I think if I’m as present as possible and as in touch with my heart, which I trust that there’s some goodness deep, the deeper I go, the more good there is, and the more that I’m in touch with that and present in this current reality that I’m living moment to moment, and it’s really hard to do, then I will be ready for whenever they show up in a new way that I didn’t expect. That’s my spiritual practice. Yeah, I like that. You wanna do an ad? Yeah. If you wanna join the Mythical Society and get any of the previous quarterly collectible items, it’s like records, comic books, blankets, hoodies, figurines, any of that exclusive collectible stuff from the past few years, now’s your time to join The Third Degree annual plan. You can also get it as a gift card and activate it at any time you want. You will then be able to choose one of those items while supplies last through February 29th. So now’s your chance. Get it. MythicalSociety.com. Ear Biscuits is supported by ButcherBox. I recently got a big old box of meat from ButcherBox and I have already gotten into it. There was two ribeyes in there and I took those things and I’ve just become an expert, Link. I’m just gonna be honest with you, I’ve become an expert at cooking a steak in a cast iron skillet. And doing a little braising butter with some garlic and some rosemary at the end and then slicing it and serving it to my family, they love it. And then yesterday, I took two of the racks of Kurobuta pork ribs, St. Louis style ribs and I made raspberry chipotle barbecue ribs while in the smoker- Now they come frozen. To the delight of everyone. It sounds like that that wasn’t a hitch at all. Oh no, no, no, no, you just take it. You just take it out of the freezer and let it thaw in the fridge or whatever your preferred method of thawing is and it was like, no one would have, I mean, yeah, it was incredible. I also got some ButcherBox and I grilled the chicken wings. Oh. That’s the first thing I did, yep. You got in your box too. That was great. And the meat is just the highest quality, 100% grass fed beef, free range organic chicken, pork raised, crate free and wild caught seafood. It’s especially helpful because it means you don’t have to go to the store to get your meat and your freezer is always full of meat just in case you end up needing a fast dinner to whip up. Yeah, I like that each box has curated tips and recipes that are specific to what you ordered as well. Meat prices are going up and up so it’s kind of a no brainer. Plus ButcherBox gives you free extras for a whole year? Yes! Eat better this year with the best meat and seafood on the planet delivered to your door. ButcherBox is offering you their choice of a weeknight meal essentials, three pounds of chicken thighs, two pounds of ground beef or one pound of premium steak tips for free in every order for a whole year. Plus get $20 off your first order. Sign up today at ButcherBox.com/ear and use code EAR to choose your free offer and get $20 off. All right, let’s start with- What’s the first question? I’m still calling these tweets, excretions is what I wanna call them. Maaaqo asked, “did you ever even for a second consider “a different religion than Christianity “or do you simply just believe that all of them are wrong?” Did I ever for a second? I’ll give my answer ’cause it’s quicker. I think at this point, I don’t because of, I mean, I think it’s obvious what based on what I’ve just been saying, but I just have this strong inkling that, yeah, we’re all just trying to figure it out. And if the answers were there, I think they would be more evident by this point in human history. So I’m like, yeah, I’m just gonna lean back a little bit. Right. I mean, in this question, it’s funny, there’s only a few evangelical religions. And when I say that, I mean, religions that proselytize, religions that wanna talk you into their situation. Jehovah’s Witness. Well, you’ve got Christians and you’ve got all the offshoots of Christians and then you’ve got the, when we get into Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons, from an evangelical perspective, they don’t think that they’re Christians or whatever, but it’s kind of based on Christianity, right? So there’s lots of proselytizing that happens in that group. So in terms of, did I consider another offshoot of Christianity? I was like, well, no, because they’re all kind of based on the same thing. But lots of questions come in from Muslims. Did you consider Islam? They believe that the Quran is the word of God and it’s a different system. It’s an Abrahamic religion, but it’s based on this revealed revelation that’s in the Quran. And I have not studied it terribly deeply, but I know enough about it to know that they make what I feel is the same ultimate mistake that proselytizing religions make, which is an exclusive claim to our telescope to use the, you know, “we’ve got the right telescope. “We’ve got the right picture of God.” And so that whole mentality was something that was never attractive. And also I’m like, OK, I can sort of do the thought exercise of what it would be like to go into a deep dive on the apologetics from a Muslim perspective. And I can imagine that the same types of debates happen. And I’ve seen some of them on the internet, the same types of debates about the historicity of things and the legitimacy of things and their view of Jesus and stuff like that. And it just gets into this headspace where you’re like, guys, whatever spiritual truth there is that you guys are just over, you’re thinking about it and you’re trying to say that you’ve got the exclusive view. And it’s just like, that ain’t it. That ain’t it, chief. What about Eastern religions? So Eastern religions are a different bag in my view. So you talked about Buddhism. I think that Eastern religions are, I think they’re much more religious philosophies than they are religions, right? So they are often a way of being, a way of doing life that gets very, very practical. And that’s why they’ve been so easily adopted by so many Westerners who aren’t religious. I mean, you got somebody like Sam Harris, who is one of the four horsemen of the new atheism. And he’s a huge proponent of Buddhism and meditation from a completely practical atheistic standpoint, just to prove the point that we’re talking about things that yeah, there’s some sort of metaphysical, when you get down into it, there’s this metaphysical understanding that is probably where you get real shaky and you can’t really support it scientifically. But the impacts of meditation, mindfulness, and those, it’s just, we know that those things work. In the same way that we know that praying within the context of Christianity, we’re not saying it works, but it works for the person who’s doing the praying in terms of there is something, people who are religious, people who have faith are on the whole happier. Right, when you’re not sending people to hell, anything under that category becomes more appealing. Right, but I’m just saying that, so there’s lots of, one of the things is that when you’re in the Christian camp or when you’re in the conservative evangelical Christian camp, behind closed doors, the thing that they will say is that all these other religions are essentially different versions of Satanism, right? I mean, that’s what we were taught. Buddhism is, anything that distracts from the gospel. Well, lies, yeah, lies. And so who’s the author of Buddhism, Buddha? No, Satan, if you wanna get down to it. But when you realize that we’re all just setting up our tent, putting our telescope towards the sun, trying to figure out what the hell’s going on, then you start saying, well, what’s working for people? If this is not some definitive game of exclusive truth, but we’re just trying to kind of brush up against some kind of reality that might be significant and might impact us, I think the practical, now it kind of opens you up to like, well, what do these guys have to say? And lots of these Buddhist principles that have come through mindfulness, reading about mindfulness and meditation are super significant and a huge part of my spiritual practice. And then you got people like Eckhart Tolle who are able to synthesize Christianity and Buddhism into something where it’s just like, can talk about things in a really insightful and helpful spiritual way. Does he make some claims about spiritual reality that I don’t think you can back up? Well, of course, but is it useful? Is it meaningful? Does it improve my life and the lives of the people around me? Yeah. So I would say that, no, not gonna consider an exclusive religion, but is there wisdom within these different traditions that we all can benefit from? Well, of course, that’s why they’ve stuck around for so long. BoredGuy, @alwaysboredbob, “How do you overcome the feeling “that you just might be wrong? “I’m going through my own questioning faith journey, “but the fear I have of being wrong “and then spending eternity in hell “keeps me from fully deconstructing. “I even feel my thoughts about leaving faith are immoral.” I totally relate to this. Being on the inside, I gained so much benefit from the perceived security of eternal life. And escaping the punishment of hell. Does it keep you up at night now? Not at all. And why? Because I just don’t believe that you’ve got to be right about something to get into heaven. That doesn’t say justice to me. That doesn’t say creator to me. That doesn’t speak to me. Well, the holy God has to judge sin. He can’t be in the presence of sin, Link. And so who’s gonna pay for your sin? What are you gonna do with your sin? I just don’t buy it. But I did at one point and I had to change. Yeah, I do not lose any sleep over a fear of hell. And I would say one of the reasons is for the same reason that when I was a Christian, I didn’t lose any sleep over fear of the Muslim hell. And none of the Christians that I knew or know now lose any sleep over being infidels and maybe going to Muslim hell. And why? ‘Cause they don’t believe in it. Yeah. So it’s just as simple as that. Why do you not fear hell? Because I don’t believe in it. Right. I don’t think that it’s actually a thing. Now, but you might say, but you used to. Isn’t that different if you used to? And then yeah, yes, you’re right. If you used to really hardcore believe that that was true, isn’t that lodged somewhere in your brain? Yes, to a degree. So how have, what has been helpful for me? I think the main thing that’s been helpful for me is that learning about the origin of the idea of hell. So when it’s just this thing that you’re just like, I was a Christian and I believed in hell, but again, one of the benefits for me personally of continuing to look into all this stuff and study all of it, is that there, again, every time I take a deeper step into this thing, I get more evidence that this whole Christian thing in the Bible is just this very incredible, beautiful in ways, elaborate invention of people over a long period of time, right? That’s changing and shifting. And there are different aspects of the philosophy that have evolved. And hell is like example number one of something that is wildly inconsistent over the course of the development of the religion. If you go back to, if you’re talking about the way that the people who wrote the Old Testament thought about hell, it was like, well, they didn’t think about hell. It wasn’t even a thing. There was Sheol and there was a place that people went and it was just an empty place that people went. It’s on my arm now in my tattoo. But it wasn’t hell, it wasn’t eternal conscious torment. And then you’ve got the way that hell is depicted in the New Testament, which is, again, the idea that we have of hell is a product of the time and the place in which the early church fathers were processing the history of thought about this concept, heavily influenced by all the philosophy that was in their minds based on where they lived and the time and place that they lived. And so this idea that we have of hell in the way that you would see it described in a systematic theology book, it’s drawn out of certain biblical passages, but if you just take a step back and look at it in an honest and truthful way, you’re like, this is not some clear concept presented in some authoritative word of God. This is an invention of people. And when you have a fear of hell, it is having its intended effect. The reason that it’s a part of the philosophy is that it’s genius. It’s incredibly effective at keeping you in the fold. It’s incredibly effective at keeping you in a state of fear of what will happen if you leave. So, it’s like, if you are in a relationship with somebody and you are running up against, there’s something about your interaction with them that’s kind of ripping you apart on the inside. And then somebody, a third party can look at your relationship and be like, you’re being manipulated by this person. And you see it from what it is as manipulation, it changes the dynamic and it changes the way that you think about that person. So, when you understand hell as a manipulative tool inside of this ideology, all of a sudden, it loses a little bit of power. You can see through it, right? So, you see the human invention that it is. Yes, there’s lots of moral problems with it when you think about it from just this concept of God you were getting at, and creator and that kind of thing. But you don’t even have to get there. You don’t even have to go to a philosophical evaluation of it. On its face, we can see that it was invented by people and it is a tactic to keep you scared and keep you in. And so, me just looking at it and being able to recognize that, all of a sudden, it’s like looking at something that seems really solid and really clear and it just sort of fades away. And so, no, I don’t think about it at all. But I understand that a lot of people do and that it’s having its intended effect. It’s keeping a lot of people in. And it’s also just burdening a lot of people who’ve left because it’s a real, real effective, it’s an effective piece of propaganda. Very, very effective. Well, this is kind of like a good follow-up question. Fleetwood Zach, I like that. “What are y’all’s thoughts on the afterlife? “It’s hard for me to believe “there isn’t anything after this. “Also, it would make me hella depressed “to know nothing happens after this life.” I’m not, I’m not afraid of dying because I just know that I’m going to. So, it really makes sense to me to just get over it. And I’ve had enough relatives die in a way that’s heart-wrenching, ugly, that it’s like, well, I’ve gotta be ready for that to happen to me. I’ve also had people close to me die just like freak accidents. So, it’s, I’m afraid of not dying, but needing to die. I see a lot of that. And that’s bad. That is bad, whether you’re laid up in a hospital for years or, you know, that’s what I’m afraid of. Torture on this side. But, I mean, you go to sleep and then you wake up the next day and you’re like, damn, it’s like time travel. You know, it’s like, what if you go to sleep and you never wake up? And I was like, ultimately, if that’s all that it is, you get the IV drip for your colonoscopy and you don’t remember a damn thing. And then it’s like, well, that could be what it’s like to cease to exist. And once you’re there, it doesn’t really hurt because it’s not you anymore. It’s just, you know. You won’t care. And then- You won’t care about anything. You know, it’s like, I, we’re talking about hope. It’s like, do I hope that I’m pleasantly surprised that there’s something on the other side of it that’s amazing or different and potentially rewarding in some way? No. What? I’m in a mood today, man, I don’t know. Because if I die and I don’t exist, I can’t hope at that point. It’s just like, well, that’s it. You know, it’s like, that’s it. So it’s, I just gotta focus on what I got, what I know I have, and that’s this. And by the way, I’m in an extremely privileged position to, in so many ways you can look at it, and I’m extremely grateful, and it makes it very easy for me to say these things. And so I’m sorry if, if I’m kind of flaunting the fact that I’ve got it. You don’t even wanna be pleasantly surprised. No, but I guess what I was, I’m very intrigued, but I’m not like, oh my God, I need to know that there’s something better on the other side. I don’t need to know that. You know, I’ve got it good enough that I can just die. Right. It’s just I’m extremely grateful for that. I don’t understand, and no one understands yet, the nature of consciousness, right? I mean, I’ve been reading a lot about it lately, and it’s mind blowing just to consider it. I think that the idea, the idea that this conscious being right here, which is regardless of the nature of consciousness, an element of my experience has some sort of physical basis. The way that my eyes focus on you is based on the physiology of my eyes, right? The way that your eyes see something is based on the physiology of your eyes, your specific eyes. My brain is a conduit by which I experience consciousness, regardless of the nature of consciousness. So that’s why if I hit you in the head with a hammer, you become a different person, right? Did I hit your spirit? No, I hit your brain. And your brain is the physical thing by which you’re experiencing consciousness. So when you die and the brain shrivels up, your experience, I would say there is a zero percent chance that your conscious experience is just a continuous, uninterrupted thing, because you’re losing the thing by which you experience your experience. Right. So is it gonna be like going into surgery and waking up? Almost 100% no, how could it be? However, there’s a lot that we don’t know about consciousness. And the idea that there is some sort of continuation of whatever it is that is the conscious part of you or some sort of returning of whatever you are in the part of you that isn’t physical to some greater reality, I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the case. But I’ve always wanted the idea, I love the idea of an afterlife. And one of the things I used to sit around in my bed and think about heaven is just like how big the universe was and how I wanted to fly all over it and see all these amazing gas balls and asteroids and other planets. And I was convinced that the reason that God had created this incredible universe was so that we could go experience it all after death. It’s like, what’s the point of all this? He’s gonna give us the power to go around and be super people. Which incidentally, there’s a little bit of that in Mormonism, which makes it kind of cool. But all that to say, I want there to be something. But if there’s not, I won’t care because I won’t anything. I won’t fill in the blank. I won’t be. So why am I gonna sit around and worry about it? I’m not worried about it. And I’m not, I understand being quote, “hella depressed” to know nothing happens after this life, but it’s kind of like, why worry about tomorrow? Tomorrow has enough worries or tomorrow will worry about itself. Today has enough worries. As Jesus said, so it’s just like, don’t worry about it. Don’t be hella depressed about it. It might be awesome, it might be nothing. It might be eternal conscious torment and I’m gonna get it real bad because of all the things I’ve said on the internet. But boy, I think that that’s really, really, really, really, really unlikely. So it’s the same reason I still take flights. Yeah, I could crash in a plane, but I gotta get to San Diego. You know what I’m saying? Still getting on that plane. Damn, you can take a train down there. Yeah. Let’s play a voicemail. Hey Rhett and Link. I was just wondering if you guys could share how you have dealt with, if applicable, any feelings of isolation or being an outsider to the community that you previously grew up in. I personally left Mormonism many years ago, but as a consequence, wasn’t able to attend either one of my sister’s weddings inside the temple. And that was hard. So I was wondering if you had any similar experiences or of those sort of feelings and how you’ve dealt with it. Thanks for sharing, really appreciate you guys sharing your story. Thank you for sharing yours. I’m sorry that you couldn’t be there for your sister’s wedding. That sucks. That sucks. You know, based on all the people that I’ve known and the stories like yours that I’ve heard, I’ll speak for myself, but I think I speak for both of us. We’re really lucky in this regard, right. We’ve had each other. We’ve had our wives. We’ve made new friends. We’ve built new community. We moved. We moved at a really strategic time in this process. And we have remained, not necessarily part of the same community, but we have also remained friends with people who are still in the faith. But I think that this sense of isolation, to me, I think this is the big one. I think that the idea of being outside of this community that, again, one of the reasons that it works, I mean, we’re kind of in the middle of a social experiment, just as a species, right? For the vast majority of human history, you were born, and you were handed down. This is what you believe about the world. This is what you do, this is where we live. It was all kind of given to you. And we’re like the first point in human history where everybody on a very large scale is sort of left to figure it out on their own in some sense. But these communities still exist. And so you leave these communities. This is hard, this is really hard stuff that’s happening culturally right now. Especially when you talk about some of these communities, like the Mormon community, where that community is so intact and going as far as you can’t even come in the temple for the ceremony anymore. You know, in evangelical circles, they may not be happy that you’re at the Christmas Eve service, but they ain’t gonna tell you to leave. You know what I mean? Now, we’re also privileged in the fact that our families, while we disagree, we still love each other. We still have meaningful relationships. So we haven’t been shunned in a way that a lot of people have been shunned. And so, I don’t know, I can just say, I’m sorry. This is a very difficult thing. I’m not gonna underestimate how difficult it is. If you feel that isolation and you’re being shunned, it sucks. If I hadn’t moved to Los Angeles when we did at that point in our careers, I think I would either still, I think I would have had to have moved. The community that I was in, and we’re still in touch with people that care about us deeply that are very involved in the church. Yeah. Including the pastor of the church that we went to. So nothing against them specifically, but when it’s a small community, it’s a smaller town, and then you’ve got this close-knit church community, and then you’re like, OK, I’m struggling, and I’m slowly moving out of it, I think I would have had to have moved to another town. I would have had to have some sort of a clean break and said, you know what, I gotta build a new community for myself that’s not just like, I’m the outsider in the community that I was a part of. Either that or I would have stayed in it and just been mildly miserable due to internal turmoil of conscience. I know a lot of people have done that. A lot of people- Not consciousness. A lot of people that I know have stayed in, don’t believe, but have stayed in because of the power of the community and the relationships that they have there, and I don’t blame them. Right. I could see myself doing that. You kind of have to make the best decision for yourself. I think you have to make the best decision given the circumstances that you are in. And I think that it’s like, what is the least personally damaging path, right? Yeah. And I’m not gonna be, ’cause we can’t prescribe your situation. We don’t know what you’re going through. You were a close friend and it would be different. I don’t know what you’re dealing with, but I just don’t think anyone should feel pressure any way. You know, you have to make the decision that’s best for you and the people in your life. And some people are gonna be like, I’m just gonna kind of stick around in this community. I don’t believe, and I’m gonna like, kind of wait for my foot out the door, but I’m not going until I got somebody to go with, or until I realize that there’s some community that I could be a part of. You know yourself better than anybody. Let’s hear this related voicemail. Hi, so I’m kind of going through my own little deconstruction era at the moment. And I think the biggest question, ’cause I don’t have anyone else to talk to about this, is do you still have a relationship with the people who are still Christian even after you deconstructed? Because I think that is the biggest hurdle that I’m kind of going through right now. I’ve been going through this alone because I don’t wanna lose any of the relationships that I have. And so I just kind of wanna see if you guys still have relationships with the people who are in the church right now. Also, I love Biscuits, and I love Good Mythical Morning. Thank you for choosing my comment. Goodbye. So we were kind of talking about this a little bit, but I think there is a different aspect of this. And that is, what is it like to be in relationship with people that are still Christians? And how do you manage that? And I think the answer is boundaries. Because what happens a lot of times is that if you leave a Christian community, you become the black sheep, you become the project. You now are someone’s personal project. They gotta bring you back in the fold. And I think that you just have to communicate. Now, first of all, we’ve been blessed with Christian friends who are, whatever enough, tactful, loving, smart, whatever the word is you wanna give, to not, even if they feel strongly that they want us back in the fold, they do not base our relationship on that. The relationship is based on connection. And that’s a privilege, and I appreciate that from those people. Yeah, the word I would use specifically related to our college boys friend group is empathy. There’s a genuine love and an understanding of our experience. And they empathize and they filter how it’s changed our relationship some, but not in every way, and not in what… We all might would have thought, wow, is this a core change? And then it’s been nice to know that it has not been. Right, but if I had a friend, thankfully I don’t, if I had a friend who I knew that the purpose of their continued friendship with me was primarily to get me back in the group, and also that was the nature of our conversation and our interaction on a regular basis, I would just set the boundary and I’d be like, hey man, I love you, I wanna be your friend, I’m not going to be your project. I’m not going to be your personal project. And if your only way of interacting with me is as your personal project, then I’m gonna have to say, we’re gonna limit our interactions and you can pray for me all you want to, but I’m not gonna subject myself to that kind of relationship. Yeah. And I just think you have to set that boundary, and I think there are people who will respect it. You know, Christy and I reconnected over the past couple of years. You know, after being out here 15 years, we reconnected with our pastor from back home and family. When they came out here to visit family members that were out here, we spent the day with them and reconnected and it was great. I think there was a healing component to that, you know? Oh yeah. Even though it was not ever explicitly discussed, like we still care about you and you meant so much to us. And this conversation went both ways, that it’s like, it’s just nice to be in each other’s lives again. And for those boundaries to be there, we didn’t ever have to talk about it. And then, we were close with the pastor, the church that we were involved in here, and we’ve remained connected. But there was like, there was a period of time when there was more distance and it just took, I think there was like a time of processing and like, hey, it’s gonna be simpler for me if we don’t see each other for a while. I just think it practically played out that way. Again, it wasn’t a discussion. But then there was a point where we start to reconnect, let’s hang out, let’s catch up, let’s get lunch, and then it was… So now it’s kind of rebuilding a friendship on the other side of deconstruction, but far enough on the other side of it. So, that’s been my experience. So there’s hope there, it was a good chunk of time, years where it was like, all right, this might not be as active as a friendship. And I think, again, this is just privilege, again, being in Los Angeles, this is a town that there is not a, this isn’t Fuquay Varina, right? This is a incredibly diverse place in terms of people and in terms of thought. So while there are a lot of very evangelical Christians here, they exist in a world in which, if you’re in certain towns in the South, you sit down and go out to get coffee with somebody, it’s just like, where do you go to church? You don’t get that question out here. It’s not culturally Christian. Do people still bow their heads in praying public back in North Carolina? I assume so. Last time I was- I mean, like that doesn’t happen out here. Last time I was home. If you’re devout, you don’t put it out. Last time I was home, I saw literally, literally I was at a restaurant and I saw, I counted six tables, six tables over the course of my one meal in which people were praying. I was like, yeah, I forgot, this is what people do. And that’s why it was like, it would have been so hard to still be there. And it’s like, hey, let’s get coffee. And then it’s like, OK, you’re praying, we want to pray together over this coffee? That’s like, no, we need to have an awkward conversation. Everything is now becomes a rub, ’cause there’s so much that’s culturally ingrained. Yeah. Ashley, Ashley Brewer, longtime Mythical Beast, asks a very good question. “Where is your hope found, “especially when things seem really, really bad? OK. This was one that I was really afraid of. You don’t want to answer this. When I was coming to grips with the fact that like, ah, I think I am moving out of the church. I think I’m about to say that I’m not a Christian anymore. That was one of the things that really scared me about saying. It was like, oh man, when the shit hits the fan, what am I going to do? What am I going to do if I’m like on a record? Like, if I tell God- And if it’ll hit the fan and you’ll have to come back, with you tail between your legs. Or I don’t know where I’m going to turn. I don’t know where I’m going to turn or what I’m going to believe about it. Where am I going to find hope? But I’m going to let you answer first. OK! I’m just going to say that it did scare me. This is a great question because outside of the community question, I think that this is the most important question for people because it’s just brass tacks. It’s where the rubber meets the road, man. It’s like, where do you find your hope? Because isn’t that the point of all this to begin with? When you get that diagnosis, when you get that horrible phone call, when you are at the bottom of the barrel, when you’ve been abandoned, when you don’t have any direction in life, when you don’t have any money, the list goes on and on. These are common things that happen. Yeah. And so odds are is going to happen in one form or another to every single person. It is the human existence. It feels like in one form or another to be a guarantee. So if you don’t have an answer, Rhett, then it’s like you’re setting yourself up for even more pain. You’re screwed. That’s how I felt about it. So there’s two aspects to my answer to this, and this is not your answer, this is my answer. So I’m not saying that this is what you should think. This is just what has been helpful to me. The subtext of this question is, not from an accusatory standpoint, but the subtext is, I’m assuming that you would have at one point said your hope is in Jesus, your hope is in God, and now that you don’t identify as a Christian, where’s your hope found? “All things work together for the good of those “who love Him and who are called according to his purpose.” God has a plan for you. Romans 8:28. So one of the things that was a really significant sort of part of my deconstruction, and this kind of happened slowly. So this is the first part of the answer, and this is kind of from a, again, I always have the like, there’s something happening on an intellectual level, and then there’s something kind of happening on the heart level. So I’ll kind of talk about both of those. From an intellectual standpoint, I came to the conclusion that it was difficult for me to explain the practical difference between believing in the sovereignty of God and believing in complete chaos and randomness. Let me explain that. So when the shit hits the fan, what you say as a Christian traditionally is that God is at work, God is in control, He’s not gonna give me any more than I can take. The reality is, is that you never know exactly what that is that God has in store for you, because it could be that there’s more shit that’s gonna hit the fan. It may be that the shit’s gonna hit the fan so hard that you’re literally gonna hit a fan and die. You don’t know where the end of it is. And just from a completely practical standpoint, the difference in outcome between God being in control and there being no control at all, you can’t decipher between those two things. It’s really just a mindset. Yeah. So that may not be convincing to you, but for me personally, it was kind of like, what is it to believe that God is in control? It’s just to believe that He’s the puppet master who is the one that got me into this automobile accident, and then is the reason I had to get my leg amputated, but He did it for my good. And now I got to get my other leg amputated, but God is still doing it for good. But I’m still without legs at the end of this thing. And God is doing it for good, and then it’s like, or I was in an accident, sometimes accidents happen, and now I’m without legs. I’m still in the same situation, just from a practical standpoint. We never believed that God was going to protect us from all harm. We actually believed that there was a higher purpose when those inevitable things happened. So it was, yeah, mindset. How do you respond emotionally, philosophically to the hardship, to the shit hitting the fan, to the nightmare? Yeah, and that’s where I would say the heart concept. So Ram Dass has a book called “Grist for the Mill.” I haven’t read it, but I’ve heard him talk about the concept of grist for the mill in a number of talks that I’ve listened to, right? And of course, grist for the mill, in a literal sense, is this idea that you bring raw material to a mill, like you might bring whole wheat to a mill, and you put it in a mill, and it becomes flour. It grinds it down violently. Right. And the philosophy of every single thing that happens to you, no matter how good or no matter how bad, is grist for the mill. Every single thing that happens to you, no matter how good, no matter how bad, is the raw material by which you can be transformed into the future version of yourself, into the next you that you grow into. The spiritual growth that takes place is based on how you process the raw material. And so I actually think that that’s the exact same thing on just a practical level that I would have said about, well, God is doing this thing, and God is in control, and my hope is in the idea that God has a plan that on the other end of this, I will be whoever it is that God wants me to be, I will be in the place that God wants me to be. There’s a slightly different semantic, there’s a semantic difference between just a general principle of the universe, regardless of the nature of the universe, whereby which, regardless of what’s happening to me, I have the opportunity to see this as grist for the mill, as something that will transform me into the next version of myself, so I will be in the place that I’m supposed to be. And so I’ll just be honest with you, like, you know, I’ve experienced some difficult things, I’ve experienced things that I haven’t talked about on this podcast, I don’t share publicly, that are difficult things for me to get through. When I was a Christian, I would have been like, God, you’re in control, I would have prayed, and I would have been like, I’m trusting the outcome is in Your hands, and that You know what’s best for me. What happens now is I’m like, shit happens. I live in a universe where shit happens, and I don’t know if it’s a part of a greater plan or not, I tend to believe that there’s some sort of intention to the universe, but I don’t know, and that’s not the thing that brings me comfort, but what I have is I have the power of choice to be like, this thing is happening, and it can be for my growth, or it can be for my destruction, and I’m the only one who can make that decision. And so it gives me a perspective in the midst of something that’s really, really hard to be like, man, this is really, really hard, but this is what the universe has for me right now. And if I’m in the midst of feeling something that makes me feel so hopeless, and so helpless, that feeling of hopelessness and helplessness can be exactly what I need to get on the other side of the hopelessness. For whatever reason, and it’s not some intellectual thing that I’m thinking through, it is ultimately a mindset. So to me, believing that God is in control is a mindset that is very helpful for the vast majority of people on the planet still. And I think it’s a very useful mindset. And I’m not saying you shouldn’t have that mindset. If you’ve got that mindset, I’m not asking you to change. I’m just saying, I don’t have that mindset anymore, but I essentially go through the same motions and end up at the same place from a slightly different perspective. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. I mean, it’s a growth mindset, is basically what you’re saying. I think for me, it’s like, I fully expect that there is impending doom in one form or another that’s gonna hit my life. And I just, when it happens, I just have to say, this is happening. I have to accept it as happening. My hope is that I will have the resources, meaning the relationships, the wherewithal, the outer strength, and maybe the inner strength to move forward, like you’re saying, grow and not just curl up and die. But the answer may also at some point is gonna be curl up and die. You’re gonna die. Right. It’s gonna get you eventually. I think the thing that it does for me now, the way that I think about it is it makes me very grateful in this moment. And when it’s tough to find the thing to be grateful for when you’re at your lowest, I can only hope that I get through it. Or I mean, I don’t know. The contrast makes me very grateful for the moments and the times or the seasons when that’s not happening. If you’re the guy at the mill who takes in the new raw material and you’re like, well, there was a truck full of shit today, well, that’s what you got today. You got a truck full of shit, what are you gonna do? Put it in the mill. Put it in the mill. Oh, you got a truck full of gold today! Put it in the mill. Put it in the mill. And just know the truck shows up every day and it’s a mixed bag. Put it in the mill. You got no choice. And then eventually one day, the mill’s gonna stop working and you’re gonna die. Is this too dark, Jenna? You’re all about darkness. I looked at Jenna and I was like, I fully expected you to be chomping at the bit over there to say something. You don’t have to, but. Yeah, I don’t have much to say. I’m very much on the, if it’s gonna happen, it’s gonna happen, why worry? Yeah, there’s just kind of a stark reality to it. But I do like the growth mindset thing that Rhett was talking about. It’s like, that is very similar to what I would put on God. It’s what we already believed. It’s what we already believed, and it’s- “All things work together for good.” You find a way to- “For those who love God and are called “according to His purpose.” OK, I still kind of believe that. Let’s listen to a voicemail about family. Hi, Rhett and Link, my name is Randy, not of the Cotton Candy variety. I am calling in regards to your tweet about questions vis-a-vis your deconstruction. I was wondering how do you guys sort of facilitate those conversations with your family? I’ve also deconstructed. My grandmother is a devout Southern Baptist, and every time I see her, she tells me that she’s worried for my salvation, and I don’t know how to… I don’t know, make it stop. Any advice or anything that you can provide would be really grateful. Thanks, love you guys. You can relate to this, can’t you? I can definitely relate to this. Yeah, and I’ve talked about it in therapy, and I heard a great song once about a guy who went home for the holidays, and his worldview had changed. Oh. What’s the name of that song? “Heavy.” “Heavy.” Yeah, why did you call it that? ‘Cause… It could be heavy. It could be heavy. Yeah, I really had to, especially with certain outspoken members, member of my family, to say, you know what? Well, first of all, there’s two things. There’s how much do you share, and how much perceived pain are you signing your loved one up for by sharing? And there’s the reticence to do that. And then the second part is, once it does come out, and the situation that the caller was in, it’s like, all right, once it’s out there, and now you’re on the receiving end of what feels like piling on guilt and concern back on you. I think that finding a secure place within yourself, and I had to find a secure place within myself to say, OK, this is where I’m at for good reasons for me. And I don’t have to translate all of that to somebody else. When you love somebody, you want ’em to feel great about you, and you want ’em to know that you’re happy and all of these things. But as heavy as it can be, I would prepare myself for encounters. It was easier because it would be when I’m visiting home to say, OK, I’m gonna disarm the situation, or, this is what I’ve decided to do. I’m going to downplay the situation this time, or, I’m going to own it, and I’m going to respond in humor. Instead of going to a heavy place, I’m gonna go to a humorous place. There’s a chasm there that we’re on different sides of, and some of it can’t be… You’re not gonna ever be standing on the same side and like, oh, now this feels perfect. We both feel at peace. But you can find a way to move forward. It’s like, hey, we’ve gotten through the worst conversation. You found out, or I told you, and now on the other side of it, I am happy, and so I’m gonna represent that, which might be a little bit of humor and gentle ribbing. Gentle ribbing for your pleasure. I’m not really presenting it as advice. This is what I went through. That’s the stages of me. And that’s who you are. And that was over 15 years. And that’s who you are, and that’s who this particular family member is. And so, again, I think it goes back to, well, it depends on your particular situation. Sometimes it would be like, “well, I’m praying for your salvation.” I’m like, well, I’m praying for you to stop believing this bullshit. You know, it could be, you could give it right back to them, or you could be like, most times, it’s like, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. “I know how much you love me, and I feel that right now, “and I want to let you know that I really am “in the best place I’ve ever been. “And maybe that’s a result of you praying for me. “But I will say that I’m in the best place “that I’ve ever been, and I’m grateful for it, “and I’m very much open. Things like that kind of disarm a little bit, and it’s not this knock-down, drag-out kind of thing, but I cut you off. No, well, there’s a related question. Let’s hear the related question here in the next voicemail. Hey, Rhett and Link, this is Cash. I’ve been constructed around the same time that y’all were. I need some advice. I don’t feel like I can tell my parents, especially my mom. I grew up very Christian, very Republican. My parents know that I lean more Democrat, but they don’t know that I am no longer a Christian. I feel like I would break her heart, and she’s about to be 70, and I don’t want her last years on earth to be thinking, oh, my son is gonna go to hell. I do not want her to think that, so I don’t feel like I can tell her. Do you have any advice for me? Thanks, love y’all. This is a good question, and I’m sure that you are in the same boat with a lot of people. And this is where I would say you gotta be the judge of this in your particular situation. I don’t think that there is any obligation to tell anyone. I agree with that. That’s the first thing I’ll say, is I don’t think that there’s just like, you live your truth, and you live it proud! It’s like, OK, maybe that applies in some situations, but honestly, half of life is just damage control. You know what I’m saying? Let’s get real about this. And if it’s gonna just rock your parents’ world, you know what? If you don’t think, if you’re like, my suspicion is they can’t handle it, then you know what? Follow your heart on that, if you think you can get by. Is it gonna be hard to navigate? Yes. And then, you know what? You never know, it might come out. You might not be able to hide it in some way. They might listen to this podcast and recognize your voice. No, we’ll bleep out your name. But… Yeah, it might eke out like a gentle fart over time. I think this is definitely a case-by-case thing because I totally get it. The older people get, legitimately, from a scientific perspective, the less plastic their brain gets. And so, the chances that, first of all, if you’re on a crusade to change your elderly parents’ mind about their faith, good for you, bro. But that ain’t what I’m trying to do. I’m not interested in that battle. And what I always say is, I just want us to have a loving relationship. I want us to connect. I want us to connect over being, both wanting the best for each other. And that doesn’t mean we never talk about things. But the reason I told my parents is because, while I knew that it would be incredibly difficult, I believed that they would be able to, we would still be able to maintain a relationship, and they would be able to handle it. And also, my situation’s a little bit abnormal in that- Yeah, when you’re gonna- I knew at some point I would be talking about it on the internet. And so, it was a little bit different. But I totally get it if you feel like you can’t tell somebody, and I’m not gonna hold it against you. Yeah, it’s one of those things that, take it week to week, take it month to month. Some things it’s like, it’s better to slowly peel the band-aid back. And maybe sometime, maybe one day you’ll just find that the band-aid’s fallen off, and you didn’t even rip it. Yeah. And I will say- That’s one way. And I will say- The other way is rip it off, and then let the scab form, and let’s have a scab analogy, I don’t know. And I want to say this again, because a lot of times, I understand we speak from a very particular perspective, and we miss other people’s situations. So if part of your deconstruction was, is you literally like, you’re gay and your parents don’t know you’re gay. I feel like that’s a different thing. I can’t speak to that. That’s not my experience, but I’m not gonna tell you- Or if you’re the victim of some trauma. Stay in the closet because you don’t want to upset your parents. That’s a completely different situation. I’m talking about just the aspect of faith. And sometimes those things might go hand in hand and that might be a different path for you. But I’m just saying that you gotta think about your own wellbeing. And you’re actually thinking about your parents or your relatives’ wellbeing ’cause you’re actually thinking about how their heart’s gonna be broken. So nothing wrong with that. How many more of these do you want to hit? Well, I’m having a good time. And we don’t get to talk about this stuff a lot of times. So I’d like to finish, we’ve only got three more. I’m gonna talk about my dogs a little bit. No, I’m just kidding, go ahead. Three more. You’re ready to stop. No, I’m not, I’m here for this. OK. Kaladinar42 said, “What made you decide “between deconstructing versus renegotiating? I think this is a good question because there’s a lot of deconstruction that is happening culturally. Can you define what renegotiating would look like in this analogy? Well, I think that, you know, we deconverted, right? So first of all, deconstruction, as I’ve said many times, overused word. It was commandeered by the deconstruction community. It was a term that Jacques Derrida came up with in the ’60s to talk about text and meaning, and it was a different thing. It was a textual criticism thing. But because it makes sense, because you’re deconstructing your ideology, that’s the word that is used. And the church is responding in a couple of different ways. One way that the church is responding is saying that you’re deconstructing some good things. You’re deconstructing some parts of this that are the human construct of what we believe. But really, it’s a renegotiation of your faith, and you want to still be in the house, in the Christian house at the end of this. Whereas if you just start on this deconstruction journey, and you’re just pulling the thread, pulling the thread, you’re your own authority or whatever, the whole thing’s just going to fall apart, and you’re going to be like Rhett and Link, and you’re going to deconvert. So I think the subtext of this question is, why’d you just completely tear it all down? Baby with the bathwater. Versus renegotiate your relationship with this whole thing. Keep the parts that really matter. And my simple answer is, I renegotiated for over a decade. My deconstruction was a constant renegotiation, was a constant reorienting to a new place where I would have certain things that were left intact, until I got to that place where I was holding on very tight to Jesus. And I was like, all I can hold, I don’t know what I even think about the Bible, but I’m holding on to Jesus. I think he’s bigger than all this. And I held onto him for a while. And then when I realized that the Jesus that I was holding onto was a conception. It was a human conception. Not that Jesus didn’t exist, but I’m saying our picture of Jesus, whatever that is, is by necessity a human conception and is related on some level to some historical Jesus. And it’s very difficult to determine what that was. And for me, that was a breaking point. So if somebody is like, well, I don’t believe this, but I’ve stopped here. Again, I don’t prescribe the process to people. I would just say that I constantly renegotiated, but the final renegotiation, I negotiated my way out of it. So I kind of think they’re the same thing, ultimately. It has to all be on the table, right? I mean, for it to be a legitimate exercise. They would say, well, you can look at evolution, but you still got to believe this about the Bible. Well, you can believe this different thing about the Bible, but you got to believe this about the New Testament. You can believe this about the New Testament, but when Paul says this, you got to believe it. And you can forget all that, but when it comes down to Jesus… And it’s, I mean, what are you afraid of? It kind of all has to be on the table. But absolutely, I agree. It was a process down what we were told was a slippery slope until you’re falling off the roof, I guess having exit to the attic, but I agree. I think it was an iterative process. Well, I still got this, well, now I don’t have that, but I still got this, so I’m still on the inside, right? And I’m still not going to change my label, right? And yeah, it’s over decades. It’s not like you listen to a couple of podcasts and then you decide that, yeah, I’m deconstructing, I’m out. Right. Interesting question here from LTN’s Fridge. “Would any sort of worldly event have you reconsider “the legitimacy of the Bible? “For example, the many events written about in Revelations. Well, is it not Revelation? Yeah, it’s Revelation. Is it Relevation? It’s Revelation without an S. It is the most common- Let’s not put an S on it. It is the most common mispronounced book of the Bible. It’s one Revelation, guys. When people stop saying Relevation, damn it, I can’t even say it. It’s not, yeah, it’s not Relevations. It’s Revelations, and it’s Revelation. This joke is very ironic with the way that I’m screwing it up. Should I still make it? Go for it, I want to see where it lands. All right, let me try this. When people stop saying Revelations, that’s when I’m back in. If y’all can do that, if y’all can stop saying Revelations, I’m back in. Especially, listen- Completely. Especially if, I gotta say- Washed in the blood of a whole lot of yards. If you’re a Christian, and if you believe that the Bible is the word of God, you gotta get Revelation right. You can’t say Revelations. When I get into conversations with people and they say Revelations, I’m like, you don’t really know, do you? It’s just one, right? It’s just one. It’s just one. Now, here’s the thing that I hate about saying this, is that there’s some, well, actually, when you look at the exegesis of the grammaticron, you’ll see that the- Yeah, the old grammaticron. The concept of the plurality was seen different on the island of Patmos. You know a thing or two about it, Link. I think this is a- Revelation! This is a great question, because it gives me the opportunity to- Well, helicopters, we got ’em. To point something out. Are you back in? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Helicopters! Every generation of Christians has assumed that the book of Revelation is about the time that they are living in. Now, not all Christians, not all Christians, but within every generation, there are many, many Christians who believe that it’s about the time that they’re living in, which says two things to me. First thing is, people love being the main character, man. People love being the main character! We can’t help ourselves! It’s gotta be about us! We’re living in it right now! That’s the US, that’s Russia! Antichrist, Trump, Obama! Helicopters! We just know it’s about us. People finding the fucking vaccine in Revelation. Really? Oh, yeah. Mark of the Beast. So, now, but the other thing it tells me is that- I’m glad we didn’t end this podcast. Yeah, this is- Now we’re finally getting into trouble. This is the part I love, man. We’re talking about this shit. The other thing it tells me is that this is the nature of apocalyptic literature, which is, it’s vague, bro. It’s vague on purpose because it makes it real easy to make connections between a lot of different things that are happening and these prophecies. And I would extend that. People would be like, “What about all the prophecies?” I was like, have you really looked at all the prophecies? Do you know the nature of the prophecies? Do you know the nature of the way that the New Testament was written in light of some of the prophecies that were written back into the text by Christians? I’ve looked at it. I’m not compelled by it, I’m not convinced by it. But the other thing is it’s one of those situations where if you take what I would say is an honest and truthful approach to the text of Revelation, the first and most likely explanation of the text is that John, while he was on the Isle of Patmos, was writing about his time. He thought that the world was about to end in his time. The things that he was writing about were about the churches that he knew about, the people and places that he knew about. Yes, he was writing with all this imagery, but he wasn’t writing about the year 2000. He was writing about his time. And apparently licking toads in the process. Well, we don’t know exactly why, but this is not unheard of, this type of writing. Now, anyway, I’m just saying that, no. No, I don’t think that something’s gonna happen that can be tied back to this. However, if we end up with a Kirk Cameron “Left Behind” situation, and I’m on a plane, and all of a sudden a significant portion of the people vanish, and it’s just their clothes and their seats. If that happens, I’d be like, ah, maybe I was wrong. That’s what happened in the movie, clothes and seats? Even though the idea of the rapture as it was portrayed in “Left Behind” is an invention of 1800s Christianity and is nowhere found in the Bible, that doesn’t matter. If that happens, I’m still on board, I’m coming back! OK. That’s a higher bar than mine, but I’ll see you when you get there. So yeah, I just think that you can make any connection you want to. That’s kind of the point of it, right? Like you can make those connections if you wanna make those connections, but if you’ve kind of lost the desire to make those connections, you just see it like you see any other religious writing. Kind of cool, but not gonna, and it doesn’t really apply to me, you know? So. Jacob said, “I’ve listened to all “of the Deconstruction podcast.” He made it singular. Yeah. All of the Deconstruction podcast. Right, well, it’s kind of like Revelation. You know, this podcast and all this series that we do is kind of like Revelation, Link. It’s all over the place. OK, and Jacob has come to a conclusion, “have come to a conclusion that influence has a lot “to do with your belief. “As a Christian, my question is, “what main thing pushed you over the edge to walk away? “Also, why do you need so much “evidence to believe something?” This is a good question, Jacob. So we’ve already talked plenty about what pushes us over the edge. I’m not gonna get back into that. We’ve kind of told our story multiple times. I agree with you, as I explained last week, that I do believe that influence has a lot to do with your belief, and when I say your, I mean your belief, and our belief, and everyone else’s belief. We are a product of our environments. But the thing that’s really interesting to me is this. Why do you need so much evidence to believe something? This is a good question, because a lot of people ask me, why do you think about this so much? What role does faith play in the equation for you? Because isn’t the point of this thing, in fact, Jesus, in the Gospels, Jesus comes to Thomas, famous for doubting. It’s pretty cool. And the disciples tell Thomas, they say, “the Lord has risen.” And he’s like, “Well, I ain’t gonna believe it “until I see it, and I can place my hand in His side, “and see the holes in his hands. And then Jesus comes in, through the wall, by the way, through the wall. We’re talking Copperfield’s kind of stuff. And maybe David Blaine. OK. He comes into the room, and then Thomas sees Him, and he believes. And then Jesus says, you have seen, because I proved it to you. Blessed are those who do not see, but yet believe. So it’s interesting that that Gospel ends with this sort of warning. Don’t demand evidence. Believe, believe without seeing, right? Hebrew says, faith is evidence of things not seen, right? Mm-hmm. So this is quite a predicament, right? Because yes, like the resurrection. The resurrection is such an interesting thing, because it’s the linchpin of the whole Christian faith. Paul himself said that if Jesus is not risen, then we’re fools. We are fools, right? And so a lot of Christian apologetics starts with trying to prove the resurrection. If you can get the resurrection established, everything else falls into place. But the interesting thing about the resurrection is I find all these debates about the resurrection, the historicity of the resurrection, and examining the evidences of the resurrection, and whether or not the resurrection is actually the best explanation for the start of Christianity. And people talk about this ad nauseum, and I listen to all of it. I find it really interesting, ’cause I’m like, this is 2024, we have access to everything that’s ever been written about this. I can go down into my gym and start working out and listen to these guys talk about this, but I am in the very, very, very, very, tiny, tiny, tiny, small minority of people who’ve ever had access to this information. The whole time the gospel has been in circulation. So basically right after the purported event of Jesus’ resurrection and whatever actually happened, up until literally like the 1900s, no one was like, give me the evidence for the resurrection. You just were told that Jesus rose from the dead, and you had the opportunity to place faith in that idea. You’d be like, what’s the scholarly consensus on this? We’re not scholars. Half the people couldn’t read. So I agree that faith must be the mechanism, if this is all true, faith is the mechanism by which it happens. It is a faith decision. It’s not like a, I need to analyze the evidence. But interestingly, we don’t live in that time anymore. We do live in a time where we can examine a bunch of different evidence. And so then the question becomes, well, what do I have faith in, right? So you remember those guys, the Mormons that came to our dorm, our apartment. And interestingly, when I went on summer projects or something, and you ended up meeting with them multiple times, which I found very interesting. But in the meantime, I had written this, I’ve still got a copy of it, and it’s like a handy dandy guide to talking to your Mormon friends. Because from the evangelical standpoint, Mormonism is a false religion, right? They’re not Christians, according to evangelicals. Because they believe in this other revelation. They believe in Joseph Smith and what happened with him in the 1800s and him writing the Book of Mormon and then Jesus coming over and being with the Native Americans and there’s another tribe and all this stuff. These events that happened in relatively recent history. And a Mormon might say, I have faith that those things happen. I have faith that Joseph Smith was a prophet. I have faith that the Book of Mormon is true and that this is the final and greatest revelation. And then the Christian would be like, well, how does the Christian challenge the faith of the Mormon? How does the evangelical Christian challenge the faith of the Mormon? They do it through forensics and they do, the interesting thing about it is that the events- They demand evidence. The events that happened to bring about the Mormon church were very, very recent and you can kind of look at them in a way that you can’t look at the stuff that happened 2000 years ago. It’s a different type of, it’s a different time, right? It happened in fricking America, you know? And I read all, at the time, read all the apologetics about that kind of deconstructed Mormon belief and that was my perspective as an evangelical. I was like, well, you can say that you have faith in this. You can say that you have a burning in the bosom is what they would say. But my challenge to you is that I can show you that this isn’t worth having faith in, right? And so that’s how you would analyze another faith. And I think that if you turn that level of scrutiny onto the Christian faith, it’s a different process. It’s not as easy, but I think that the result ends up being the same. So while I do think that in this, if you’re on the inside and you believe and you have faith, that totally makes sense. And having faith is kind of the way to perpetuate the belief. But once you get on the outside, a question like, why do you need so much evidence to believe something seems nonsensical because I would be like, well, because how am I supposed to know what the truth is? How do you know what you’re supposed to have faith in? Why are you not a Mormon? Why do you not believe that Joseph, Joseph Smith said that he was a prophet of God. Why don’t you believe him, Jacob? You know, not to call you out, but you asked the question. Do you have a reason why you don’t believe that Joseph Smith is a prophet? And so why don’t you just have faith? You see where we’re getting with that? And so I think the reason I need evidence to believe something is because I don’t know of a better way to orient my life now. Now, on top of that, or in addition to that, does that mean that I don’t believe things? I only believe things that can be verified empirically? No, I believe, as we talked about last year, that the creative process of, I believe in essentially what you might call the muses. I believe that creative ideas come from somewhere outside of us. And our job as creative professionals is to be the best possible antenna we can be and receive these ideas. Do I have evidence of that? Well, I’ve had some interesting things happen that seemed like maybe that happened. Can I prove it to you? No. Do I expect you to believe it? No. Is it very, very possible that it’s not true? Yes. Am I going to write a book about it and make you show up and believe it and tell you if you don’t believe it, you’re going to experience eternal conscious torment? No, I’m not! Maybe. Because I hold to it loosely. It’s a different kind of belief. What I have faith in are the things that I want to be true, the things that seem cool to be true, but I don’t have faith in things that can be investigated empirically. That’s a different thing. Again, people talk about evolution all the time and the criticism I hear from many Christians is that, well, you have faith in these scientists who tell you about evolution. And that just, what that betrays is that you don’t understand evolution and you haven’t been educated about it. I’m sorry, I’m not trying to be rude. I’m just saying that anybody who says that is not familiar with the evidence. It’s a different type of thing. It’s not something you have faith in. It’s something that there is astounding empirical evidence for that is on a completely different level than what we understand about the nature of the beginning of religions like Christianity. It’s a different thing. And so there are still many Christians who have faith in Jesus and it’s transformational, it’s empowering, and I’m not saying you shouldn’t, I love Jesus. And I don’t know where I’m gonna end up in my faith journey. But I don’t think about those things related to the resurrection and the way you decipher what’s true about it in the same way that I investigate the claims of evolution. This is a different type of knowledge. Does that make sense? Yeah. That’s why I’m not a Mormon, Link. But you were with the Mormons for a whole summer. Yeah. Did they talk you into it? Nope. Well, there you have it. Another year of being spiritual. I’m sorry, I get excited about it. And here’s the thing. I don’t wanna talk about this. It’s just like I don’t wanna talk about AI. Let’s talk about AI. I don’t wanna talk about AI. But when you just give me a chance to start talking about it, I just wanna talk about it and I wanna get it out of my system. Did you? And then not talk about it a lot. Listen, it’s not out of his system. Go to Rhett’s personal TikTok. I’m not gonna submit you to it. If you want to hear more of it. I’m not gonna submit you to it anymore for a while. It will be on Rhett’s personal TikTok. No, I do that occasionally. Here we are resuming regular schedule program. Where we just talk about funny stuff. It doesn’t matter. So come back next week, use #EarBiscuits. Leave us a review. And a voicemail. 1-888- ♪ EARPOD1 ♪ Blessings. Hey guys, I just finished listening to your Rhett response to being in a book podcast. And I wanted to thank you Rhett for sharing it. It really means a lot to me. I actually listened to it with my mom. And she has always raised me to be super religious. And it kind of helped her understand the way I see things. And that I’m not really a horrible person for not necessarily being a Christian. And I guess that’s it. Thanks guys. I don’t know if y’all actually listened to these.