This episode is sponsored by Autotrader. You see a car in a movie that you just watched? You can find it on Autotrader. Shop millions of new and used cars on Autotrader. Welcome to Ear Biscuits, the podcast for two lifelong friends, talk about life for a long time. I’m Rhett. And I’m Link. This week at the round table of lighting, apparently we’re talking about standing. Standing. Because that’s all that you’ve told me. Standing, yeah. Standing. Something about standing. Some people have made an observation about the way that some people stand and we can talk about that and then talk about if this is going to impact the way that you stand moving forward. Okay. This is gonna be… There will be some visuals in this episode, but the visuals are very easy to be explained via the mouth and you will understand. Okay. I love mouth explained visuals. So somebody on Twitter, the article that I’m looking at is from the Washington Post. It just kind of popped up on my Apple News. Okay. And speaking of Apple News, somebody on Twitter, Vittorio, said, and we call this the Apple stance. And this was an observation made about the Apple… You know how they do their thing where they announce the new products, right? And the people come out and the different Apple executives come out. They started noticing that all of them were standing in a certain way. Okay. If I may, I would describe this as feet apart, unnaturally apart and hands clasped at the belt. And not just feet apart. Toes out. Toes out. Well, clearly there is a Apple stand specialist who is consulting everyone on how to stand when representing Apple. So that is the question, that is the question that is actually posed in the article, because a lot of people are like– Well, how many people are in that picture? One, two, three, four– 12. 12 different Apple executives all standing the same way. Yes. There is somebody who… It’s like speech writer plus. Well, I’ll tell you who it is, Link. This stance is known as the ready position. Now, just so you understand, their feet are– Understand. Their feet are like two feet apart. If I just stand up, I’m saying that they’re legs, just so you can… If you’re not seeing this, their legs are in a triangle position. Their knees aren’t bent. of a triangle. I would call ready position your knees bent– They’re not in the triple threat position. Yeah, when your palms are out. But it’s called the ready position in public speaking and performance, according to Ruth Sherman, a speech and media coach for CEOs and celebrities. Sherman doesn’t know if Apple executives have been drilled on the technique, which she said is commonly taught an ideal for a public speaker. Apple declined to comment for this article. Now, your body is balanced and can pivot easily to address different parts of an audience. Wait, wait, wait. So you’re saying Apple declined to comment on an article investigating why they all stand the same way? They didn’t have time to stop what they were doing to talk with someone about how they all stand? No, they just declined to comment. It wasn’t a matter of time, because if– Because we have time to talk about it. If they talk about it, just think about it. Let’s just say one day Mythical has a presentation and what ends up happening? Because this is my theory. Anyone who speaks in front of an audience at this Apple thing goes through training. And one of the many things that is covered in this is the best ways to stand or the best way to stand. And then I don’t think it’s a question of like, there’s a director there who’s looking and being like, no, no, no, further apart, further apart. I just think it’s, they kind of know this is how Tim Cook stands, this is how we stand. And if you were to analyze other presentations from other companies who had the same training, you would probably see the same thing. And then if people start poking around, and Washington Post comes and starts asking questions, what do you benefit from saying, yes, we all took this thing, we’re all making the Apple A with our legs? Well, yeah, I didn’t think about that. That’s a little subconscious. No, you declined to comment because this is all about projecting power and confidence. But you think about the other ways– Yeah, we all took a class on how to do it. Right. What are the other ways that you could stand? Well, you could stand normal. Like you could have your feet underneath your hips. Now, I will say, if you cross your legs while standing up, the having to pee position, that is not a powerful position. If I saw somebody delivering news. Would not be comfortable. If Tim Cook was announcing a new product and he had one foot over the other, I would immediately not trust this product. Right? So I do think it’s effective. I’ve noticed that sometimes I stand and I take my right leg and foot and I put my right foot behind and then on the other side of my left foot, I cross my right foot behind my left foot, and I’m just now realizing that it just looks like I have to pee. It also looks like I’ve crossed my left leg in front of my right leg, but I haven’t. Yeah, there’s a subtle distinction there, Link. I’ve put my right leg behind– Only in your mind. What you’re saying is that you started with both feet together and you moved your left leg and people might assume you moved your right leg. Here I am standing. I’m sorry if you’re just listening, but I’m gonna tell you what I’m doing. I’m standing normal. And then I moved my left foot to the middle of my gravity, and then I put my right foot there. Does that look like I’ve crossed my left leg in front of my right leg? Yes. Well, I haven’t. If you don’t know the initial conditions of that stance, there’s no way you can predict how it happened. I just realized that. And is there a difference in your mind as to whether or not your left foot goes behind the right or the right foot goes over the left? There definitely was. That’s strange to me. There definitely was– Now, you’re talking about like… In what context would you stand like that? You wouldn’t stand that way if you were delivering a speech. No, no, no, no, no. This is you taking a load off. Taking a load off. I stand a lot of times because my legs are actually different lengths. Like this. So your hands are on your hips, your right hand is high on your hip and your left hand is below your left hip. my feet. All your weight is on your right leg. And the left leg is… Now, this is not preferred. You shouldn’t do this. I call this the Gary Elmore. Who is that? So, a little bit of a deep cut here. Gary Elmore was a basketball player for Campbell University when I was a child and I was a ball boy. Okay. And he always stood like that. I just noticed it. Gary Elmore, I wonder where he is these days, he would would lean on his right. I don’t know if it was a left or right. I don’t know which– His right hip would be out. It’s not great for your back to stand like that. My therapist, my physical therapist told me that. That you shouldn’t stand like that. That you shouldn’t stand like that. Yeah, it’s misaligning the spine. That you need to stand on both of your feet. Yeah. But she didn’t go with this Apple power stance. She didn’t teach me that. Well because she’s not talking about influence. But ever since she’s… I soak up everything she said like a sponge and it’s been three years and I still remember, like, I don’t stand that way anymore because it may not be good for your back, but I don’t think it’s good for my hip to like throw it. Just throwing everything off of alignment creates tension in other places. So if you’re like this, like leaning to the side, shifting your weight to one foot, keep your weight on both feet. Yeah. Now– Keep your shoulders back, keep your chin down. You don’t want to overthink it though. Oh, I overthink it all the time. This goes much deeper– Take me there. -and I’m about to take me blow your mind. I thought we were done. So they made the observation in this article that this power pose, the ready position, is actually, has been taken to more extremes. Okay. Specifically the thing they point out is the Tory Party in the UK, in the way the leaders stand. Currently or historically? Oh my God. Now, I can’t even begin to describe how wide the stance is. So this is… Both feet are… I mean, if someone was standing next to you in a normal stance, your foot would be in between their feet. There’s four feet of spread between their feet. Wow. Like it looks like they’re about to take a dump in their pants. Their knees still aren’t bent, but, yeah. It’s so strange. And this is associated with one particular political party in the UK? Well, this Twitter user says Jeremy Hunt joins the Tory power stance crew. So apparently everyone that’s in this picture… Oh yeah, look. Look at the guy on the end. His feet are so far out that he had to pigeon toe it just to not fall over. He looks like he’s learning to roller skate and it’s about to go really wrong. His groin is gonna hate him. It is a– And there’s a woman doing it too. It is a superhero pose. But the hands aren’t crossed and they’re not… Or akimbo. It’s still that clasp in front of the belly button. And see, look, there’s all these people posting these pictures of like– Like The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. -people who stood like this. But this is immediately what I think when I see this. I think, I don’t trust… I don’t know anything about the– If you have to be told how to stand– I don’t like– -what else do you not know? -feeling like I’m being manipulated because of the way that you stand. So if I’m in a meeting with someone, and this doesn’t happen very often because we just don’t really frequent these circles, I can imagine that there are definitely like types of business, like finance bros and like the salesman guys that you keep popping up in my fricking feed on Instagram, just because I’m always so fascinated by these guys, like these sales guys, like trying to teach other men how to seem manly or something, and this body language stuff, it’s kind of sickening to me, right? Because if I was in a room and I saw somebody doing these outward things and I was like, oh, you’re doing that thing to try to make yourself seem bigger or to seem more confident, it’s immediately like, what are you compensating for and is this the way that you move about in the world, in this way that you have to be dominant or whatever? When I see a politician doing it, I’m like, okay, you’re manipulating me right now. You’re standing that wide? What are you trying to prove? Like a train full of children could go between your legs. You know like one of the little trains? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like at one of those little amusement parks? The ones they don’t even let you ride on with your kids. Yeah. The full train could go through the legs. If you’ve got train space, look, it’s the Tory tunnel, I don’t know anything about these political parties, what they stand for, but I’m gonna tell you right now, you’re standing like that, I’m out. I don’t know what you stand for, but I don’t know why you’re standing that way. Right. I’m a little torn about this because the power of body language is a good thing to understand, but when that type of stuff enters my brain, as I’ve already said, like I get feedback from my physical therapist and then I just can’t forget it, I think to my benefit, physically, but even like in a meeting, like yesterday, we were in a hybrid meeting and there was one person on the screen and everybody else was in the room, so we all turned on our cameras so she could see all of us, but we turned all of our mics off except for one person. And I used my phone and it was kind of a low angle where you and I were sitting on the couch and you did something that bothered me, but I decided that that’s my problem and I’m never gonna say anything. I did? Of course, now I’m saying something, but only to prove a point that I elected to not say this and I stand by it, it was the right choice. I’m curious. You leaned back and you crossed your legs. You put your ankle on your knee. You did that cross. Ankle on knee. You didn’t put your knee over your knee and did like a tight cross, you did a– A loose cross. A loose– Room to breathe, they could say. And your head was like really small and… I could see us. So I knew what she was seeing. Oh, okay. So I leaned forward so that she felt like I was engaged in the conversation. And I also know that she thinks about these type of things. Okay. And you were leaning back and your head was really small and it was really far away, and I felt like she might be a little… Feel a little like you were a little distancing, like you weren’t engaged. Okay. So I tried to communicate that. I mean, these things are important. Like if you cross your arms you seem closed off, but if you open up your arms and face somebody, you’re more open. But there’s ways to dominate somebody, but there’s also ways to engage. I agree with that. So I think there’s good and bad. I do feel when somebody does something that’s physically strange, like it’s an unnatural stance and you think it’s because they want to exude power, confidence, it almost feels like they’re dominating you. I don’t like that feeling. So this makes me– I feel like we’re talking about two different things. Two different things. So in the world of body language, powerful and can be very positive, but you can use it for, as with many things, the wrong things. If I feel like somebody is using body language to try to appear intimidating, if somebody’s like, oh, this person is using body language to connect with me, obviously that’s a completely different energy. Sure. I think the way that I interpret the– Odd and dominating is a bad combination. I think that’s what we’re talking about. And also like, I don’t know if you have had the misfortune of stumbling upon this type of content, but it’s like a huge, like– I haven’t. It is like this… What ends up happening, I think, is because I’m interested in like health content, which will sometimes come from these fitness people and I’ll, oh, I’m like watching this content because this person’s talking about some sort of thing related to like the optimal cardio exercise plan or something like that. Stuff that I’m interested in. But then there’s a big crossover with like guys who are trying to optimize their body, but then are also kind of getting into this like, oh, I’m also a sales guy and you’ve got to– Socioeconomic– And I’m fascinated by these personalities who are all about making the sale because it’s so… It’s like watching a train wreck, it’s like watching a child’s train run directly into a Tory politician. You watch a lot of things… Well, I’m going to state it extremely, you hate– I watch a lot of things, yeah. And so you love it. And so I’m just like, man– You actually don’t hate it. I have a fascination with it because I’m like, do all of… I know for a fact that the large percentage of men watching this dude act this way don’t find him, or, usually it’s a dude, and there’s a multiple, there’s a number of them, not thinking about one guy. They don’t find this person ridiculous, and that fascinates me that our culture sees these men behaving in this way and they’re like attracted– As a resource. And I’m like, this is so wild to me. So like cultural anthropological fascination. I just don’t think if we were Apple executives that we would take the note. We just wouldn’t accept it. It’s like, you know what? I’m gonna bring my feet in a little bit. I think, well– It’s a little unfair as people who are professional entertainers, Link. We get rewarded for being ourselves in a way that I think somebody who’s been working on the tech side of something who then has to be thrust into the public eye to make this compelling speech, and they’re like, I’m very nervous, I don’t like the attention, I’ve never been an entertainer, how do I stand? It’s tough. We are constantly seeking the attention of a crowd for a living. So I think that we’ve gotten positive feedback for just being ourselves and leaning into that in a way that I think is an unfair comparison to somebody who’s just like thrust into this other environment or whatever. But back to the thing that you just said about the Zoom call, I don’t disagree with you. I think that my level of familiarity with the person on the call dictates whether or not I will do what I did. So the way that my mind works, the way I think about that with this person that you’re talking about is that, if this was a person interviewing us or someone who we had just met and it was the first meeting, I’m much more conscious of like my body language and like my engagement and am I making a stink face right now or am I making like a welcoming face? Because sometimes I’ll get into the concentration face and I look like I’m judging you and I try not to do that, but then once we’ve been working with this person for a year, year and a half, I’m kind of like, yeah, she’s on a screen, we’re all in the room, yeah, I’m more relaxed and so I kind of lean back and make my head real small. Which is why I would never– It’s not that I don’t agree that it’s less engaging, I’m just saying that it’s actually a result of feeling like a level of familiarity, like we’re talking to a friend. Well, the only reason I went down that path in my brain at the time was because I was the one placing the camera and it was as high as I could get it, but I was still pretty sure that we were given strong crotch shot. And we’d also just been told– But we both have our legs crossed in a way that makes that happen. We had also just been told by someone on our end that she felt somewhat disconnected last time we did this because we only had one camera on one person. That’s right. So we all turned our cameras on and muted except for one computer. So yeah, I could see how that was on your mind. But I just, I mean, you’re defending people who work for Apple and they’re not professional speakers and they’re subject to consulting and they’re just told what to do. It’s like, okay, you know better than me, but I still kind of feel like, yeah, but my feet this far apart? Trust me, trust me. I don’t think it gets that granular. My theory is it doesn’t get that granular. It does. There’s a couple of people who in this picture for Apple who are not… It’s not quite as far. In fact, it’s two of the women. Yeah, because they have more intuition about this. One of the women’s got it really wide, but then this is normal. These two women are standing in a normal way. Now they’re all wearing the same pants. The pants are a little wide-legged, so it’s like, it kind of gives the illusion that the legs are closer together, but it’s just pants in there. It’s just pants. Yeah. Those pants, you couldn’t get a child to train through that with those pants. You really need skinnier pants. Right. The kids would be grabbing your pant legs and– Can’t let that happen. Wear suspenders, that’s all I’m saying. I actually think that Tim Cook is the best in this. That feels natural. It’s a little bit wide. This guy, I’m getting nervous. I’m getting nervous. Yeah. What’s he airing out down there? You know? When I say I’m defending them, I’m saying that like, I don’t think that we can… Like if you were to get up and give a speech… Oh, you know what? Actually, this is a good example. We were having our senior leadership meeting the other day, and at some point you got into a crisscross applesauce position on your chair, which is something that I can’t do comfortably. I’m a very large person. I’m flexible enough to sit that way, but I have to be on the floor. I can’t really do it in a chair. But it’s not a powerful way to sit, but the choice to do it is actually an exhibition of your power, as one of the people who is in charge. Potentially. We are at a company where anyone who decided to sit in their chair in a crisscross applesauce position, no one’s gonna say anything about it. Like, there’s very little formal sort of norms at Mythical. Like it’s very loose. It feels more like, even our most serious leadership meetings kind of feel like, just a step up from like the youth group meeting in high school where everyone could be sitting on couches or however they wanted to sit, no one would say anything. But like in a typical corporate setting, if the person in charge decided to get up in the chair and sit the way that you sat, it would be like, well, he must be in charge because that’s the only way that you would actually feel the freedom to sit like that. Or maybe he’s like very religious or something. I don’t know. Right. So the point I’m making is that– I will own the fact that I was also barefoot. Yeah, exactly. So your freedom to make those choices– I had sandals, but I had taken them off. Yeah. The freedom to make those choices is indicative of the fact that you feel that level of freedom. And I’m just saying that if you’re somebody who’s like, the average Apple tech person who’s getting ready to do this presentation, they’re thinking about it for weeks, if not months, getting ready for this thing. You’re making me nervous right now. You know what I’m saying? And like, we move from one thing to the next of us being in front of people, and so we’ve lost the sensitivity to it. I bet the wide stance decreases the chances of them fainting. You’re ready for anything– Of falling. You know, if you start to faint, you might still not fall with such a sturdy stance. I do think the hands together is a good move. hands to the side. Yeah, you’ve got to know where to put the hands. Hands to the side is weird. Clasped hands at the belly button is good. But you see those… Again– And then you gesture and then you go back. where it’s just like, there’s a guy in front of a crowd and he’s like, you see how when I put my hands like this versus putting my hands like this and I don’t even know which one is right? Like palms down or palms up. Palms down or palms up. Palms down is like, I’m helpless, I think. I don’t know what’s going on. You tell me. You’re doing palms up. Palms up. Palms down is like, I’m in control, I’ve got this. Does that feel different? I know it does. Just, when somebody’s thinking about it, it irks me. When I know that someone has thought about it, now I feel like– Manipulated. You feel manipulated. You feel like somebody planned something. That’s why you’ve got to be subtle. If you’re trying to manipulate someone to be comfortable or to listen or to engage, well, you’ve just got to be subtle. What about when you’re in a conversation with someone and they use your name and you can tell that they read that How to Win Friends and Influence People by that dude who wrote it like 100 years ago? And Link, when you’re in that situation and somebody says your name, how does it make you feel? Like that’s– Rhett, I appreciate the question, but Rhett, I just… I need to put some more thought into it, Rhett. It makes me feel so weird when somebody does that because anytime somebody uses one of the techniques from that book on me, I immediately pick up on it. And sometimes it’s just being– read the book. Sometimes it’s just being a good person. I want to be one. Asking questions versus like getting people to talk about themselves is like one of the main things is like if you get to know somebody. I know what you’re doing here and I’m not going for it, and back to you, sir. Yeah. Whatever your name is. The wonderful thing is when two people who have read that book start talking to each other– It’s just them saying their names back and forth. It’s just asking questions and wanting to continue like getting the person talking about themselves. I’m like, damn, I can’t get– Rhett, tell me more about yourself, Rhett. Oh, that’s not a good question. Well, role play. Got to be specific. Rhett, tell me more about yourself and your haircare routine, Rhett. Well, Link, one of the things I like to do is I like learning about other people. So tell me more about yourself, Link. But Rhett, you’re keeping me in suspense about your haircare routine, Rhett. Oh, it’s nothing. It’s pretty natural, actually. I wake up like this. But your hair, there’s no way that’s natural. I’d love to hear more about that, Link. We’re at a . You see how that works, man? I don’t know. I think it’s part… I mean like, I could be the consultant. That’s the other thing is that like, you start to have opinions and I would rather somebody stand in the A stance than like being the pee pee dance. It’s like, God, it’s like, well, at least somebody told them something to do. Like we’re picking it apart, but it could be a lot worse. It could be a lot worse. We’re talking about the downsides of it. But with that, I will make my recommendation and it is to read How to Win Friends and Influence People. If you’re into this. Not so you will apply these things, so you’ll know when you’re being manipulated– Oh, snap. -for people who did read the book. And also maybe you will be able to utilize some of the things. How to know if you’re being won or manipulated is like this– I will say, I can’t remember all the steps, but I think that the majority of the steps are kind of like how to be a good… It’s mostly like just being a cool person. A cool person. You know, just being cool. He’s cool, yeah. He doesn’t talk about himself constantly. That’s a big one. Got you, Rhett. I understand, Rhett. Et cetera. That’s a good , Rhett. He remembers my name. Yeah, Rhett. You know? Link, I think that’s important. All right, I wish I knew your name so I could address you directly right now, but I do care about you and so does Rhett, because Rhett cares about you too, because Rhett cares about you. That’s right, Link. Listen to us next week when we’ll bring you another one. Trust us. And if you would like to wear a shirt like the one I have, we’ve got the Belvedere Ice Cream Shop in three different colors, the Neapolitan colors, pink, brown and white, vanilla, chocolate, pink. Strawberry chocolate and vanilla? Yeah. We have those three colors. There’s a cool design on the back. It’s got a back to it. Belvedere’s Ice Cream Shop. Of course, Belvedere is the mascot of GMM. Get it on mythical.com. See you next week. What’s up, Rhett and Link? Longtime listener, first time caller. Been listening to y’all for like 10 years. I’m out of Fort Worth, Texas. I loved the Perfect Friend Group episode. It was the perfect combination of like white dad, but also relatable. If y’all start every episode with, hey, what drinks have I had today? That would be awesome. Love y’all.