Welcome to Ear Biscuits, the podcast where two lifelong friends talk about life for a long time. I’m Link. And I’m Rhett. This week at the round table of dim lighting, we are doing what has become an annual tradition. It is giving an update. On our spiritual lives, since we went public with our deconstruction slash deconversion. We did that– From? From Christianity, from Evangelical Christianity. We announced it in 2020. It had transpired close to a decade before that, or, you know, five to ten years or so. But we went public in 2020. And, uh, we keep talking about it. We’ll talk about talking about it. Yeah, why we do why we don’t more, why we do don’t less whatever. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. But we’re gonna do it mostly through the the questions that you so graciously asked us by calling the number 1888 ear pod 1! So most of the updates gonna come through that. This is a co update, we’re not gonna each get our own episode. Yeah, but would you like to, any general notes? Make any general statements about where you’re at Link? Ummmmmmm, I think it’s probably not much different than what I said last year. Which was? I can’t remember. I think before last I started to imply that I was like, that my dogs were my religion. How did that go? Uh, it’s still going pretty good. I mean, it’s, it’s definitely good to replace your phone with your dogs. Oh yeah. So I’ve discovered that. Like, less phone, more dog petting is something that I have, uh, initiated, I’ve done that for over a year now, and I stand by that. When you pick up your phone, put it down, pick up your dog. Yeah, less God, more dogs. Um, you know, I don’t, I don’t want to enter that debate, but. It’s not really a debate. I think that– That I’ve heard of before, but I mean. I don’t want to create that debate. Okay, the dog versus God debate? Yeah. Yeah. Um, I am in, you know, I’m in a good place, but it’s like a holding steady and still at arm’s length. I, and I, you know, I just can’t help but compare myself to, to your situation, to compare and contrast. I think it’s, you know, um, just my level of Interest, be it academic, well, let’s just say the academic portion, I think, is much higher for you. There’s like a, a hobbyist part, uh, component for you, that’s not there for me. Right. So, um, for me, it’s just the personal part, which I think is still, um, I like to keep it, I like to keep it simple, you know, and I like to keep it to, like, love platitudes. So, um, I think more will come out over the course of this conversation, but I’ll hand it over to you. I think maybe you’ve got more of an update. That’s kind of a non update, but, uh, you know, I don’t know if I do. And, you know, I, I, I reflected on the conversation that we had last year and I think we got into it. There was a little bit of a hiccup in the conversation that we had last year because. And I think this is actually really common. I think that, um, you may have heard me asking or even encouraging you towards spirituality on some defined terms by which you used to think about spirituality or it being something supernatural or it having to do with a specific God or specific religious practices. And I think the thing that I was, the thing that I was trying to be a proponent of is the fact that I think that when I say that I think people are spiritual beings, it’s not a metaphysical claim. Like, I don’t have hard metaphysical views because I don’t know the nature of reality beyond what I can see, touch, and feel, right, and experience. I’m open to there being things beyond my understanding. I’m open to there being a guide. I’m open to there being like a traditional spiritual metaphysical experience that is available to me and to everyone else. But I don’t know that that’s the case. And I think that there can be really meaningful, active spiritual practices that everyone can experience that don’t have anything to do with having foundational, uh, specific beliefs is ultimately what I was trying to say. But because most of our spiritual practice historically tends to funnel into a specific religious tradition, a lot of times people are like, well, I’m not a part of any tradition and I don’t have any. particular beliefs and so therefore I’m not a spiritual person. It’s like, well, but do you, like, are you trying to know yourself better? Are you trying to connect with people better? Are you trying to serve people? Are you trying to, you know, squeeze the most out of life? It’s like, are you doing any sort of content to Contemplative practice and meditation are just sitting and thinking or sitting and reading. It’s like these can all be spiritual practices is ultimately what I was trying to say. And so, yeah, and you can also look at all those things and not think of it as a spiritual practice, but it can still be very important to you. I think it, you know, it’s, yeah, so it was, I don’t actually remember. I didn’t really articulate that, but I thought about the conversation later and I read some things people said about it. Okay. And it, And I realized that I might have come across like I was trying to get you to be spiritual. And what I was trying to get you to, what I was trying to get was, I think you’re a very spiritual person, but that doesn’t mean that it tracks to a tradition. Yeah, or specific beliefs because that’s a construct that religion places on spiritual practice if that makes sense That I don’t think is necessarily. I just don’t think it’s necessary Yeah, I’m I consider myself very introspective and I Value empathy and developing that very highly like I’m I’m not As empathetic still as I’d want to be but I value that and I’m working towards that so it’s compassion for myself compassion for others, you know, I think it’s and I value curiosity and Questions I think when we We, a lot of times when you enter an environment with those values, if I start to encounter too many over emphatic answers, it pushes me away. This is precisely what I’m saying. So that’s, that’s where, you know, I, I start to get frustrated and I just. I back away quickly when it’s, um, you know, overconfident assertions just still rub me wrong. And I think that, rightly so, because of where you come from and your tradition and your background, you equate overconfident assertions with spirituality. Mm hmm. And I’m saying that, like, let’s break Let’s break that, right? Because when you’re sitting there in the zone DJing, is that not a spiritual experience? Like who says that’s not a spiritual experience? Music is probably the most spiritual thing that humans have ever created, right? And so it’s, you think about, there’s a mystical quality to it. Sure, it may simply be a natural phenomenon that we just experienced on this very deep level, but there may be something more to it, but it certainly feels like there’s something more to it, right? And so I. I’m just making the point that when people define what is spiritual and what is not spiritual and they separate the spiritual, you know, the sacred from the secular, what it does is it makes it seem like you can’t have a spiritual experience once you decouple yourself from a specific religious tradition. And I’m just saying, that’s not true. Or I don’t believe that to be true, you know? Yeah, here I am making a confident assertion But but the music thing is something that I think that we’re gonna come back to as we get through the voicemail So we’ll put a pin in that because that my ears perk up there But I’ll say that Yeah, so I tend to be really interested in just religious philosophy and thought and the deconstruction world And also the apologetics world. It’s just a it’s like somebody who’s just interested in a particular Scientific discipline or something that like I’m really into birds. Sure It’s just it’s it’s something that I just I like to pass my time by there’s no real goal in it It’s just i’m interested in it. Yeah it It makes how do you feel? When you engage with that because you go to it like I think I think that’s a difference between the two of us, right? Well, the reason I think I continue to do that is because my deconstruction is defined primarily by Sort of an intellectual unraveling of my faith, right? Which is not necessarily a typical thing. It’s just like, people deconstruct and deconvert for all kinds of reasons, and I’m not saying I only did it because of intellectual issues with Christianity, but that was my primary path. And so it’s those reasons for having faith, or reasons for not having faith, Reasons for believing that this is true. Reasons for believing that this isn’t true. That was the thing that put me on the path initially. And, it’s just my disposition. It’s my personality. I am like Holy shit, people like this particular belief and this particular faith system has shaped our culture in such significant ways. It has shaped me, who I am, how I interact in the world, and I’m just fascinated by it. And I I like thinking about it. I kind of like talking about it, but I actually talk about it a whole lot less than you might think. I kind of just think about it myself most of the time, and then occasionally we talk about it on the podcast. Whereas I, you know, I, I’m much more of a To me, my deconstruction was, it was, it was, the academic part was in, was part of it. And, and how, that’s where we interacted a lot with each other, but the experiential part of it. And, like. Sometimes the hollow experience or the negative experience is something that, or the, um, the practical implications of certain worldview, like, uh, how, how beliefs impact inclusivity and versus exclusivity and, uh, you know, the, the, how the values of Christ play out versus, is. What everybody talks about and asserts and polices, you know, and I’m just you know, I don’t Listen to podcast hardly at all. Like I don’t like listening to people talk a lot. Like I like to listen to people express themselves in other ways Like, um, like the music thing. So, I know you’re, you’re very passionate about music, but you, but if you looked at how much you listen to people talk versus people sing or perform, you, you know, it might be split down the middle for you? And for me it’s almost like 99 and then 1%. Even when I listen to podcasts, it’s about the music that I’m listening to. Um, so I just, I find myself being drawn to an experience and not to, um, something that’s more, like, ideological. Or educational I think I’m like the kid who when you ask you tell him something He says why and then you tell him and he says why and then you tell him and he says why like I really want To know why yeah, like I am driven by the why like why are we doing this? And why are we why are we doing this? How does that make you feel? How does that make me feel you know, because the way I feel is often a result of whatever the foundational truth is. I can’t fully embrace, and that’s, and that can be a problem sometimes, but like, a lot of times I’m just like, I’m not going to get comfortable until, and that’s what, that’s what sent me on my deconstruction journey, is that I was like, yeah, I know what you guys are saying. I, I’m, I am benefiting from this. I benefit from being a part of this group. I benefit from this belief system. It’s pretty awesome. You know, I have a relationship with God. I’m going to spend eternity in relationship with God. That’s pretty awesome. But, is it true? Because if it’s not, just the benefit of it is not going to mean anything to me. It’s going to feel hollow. It’s going to feel empty. And so, there’s again, It doesn’t make me better. It’s just there’s, there’s certain people have certain dispositions and you just kind of follow that disposition, but like what, where that leads in terms of like, before we get into the questions. I mean, I think the thing for me is that with each year that passes, I. Um, you know, I, I still feel like I have a vibrant spiritual life in terms of, in many ways, I feel like you can kind of replace some of the, what I would have called like communion with God or time with the Lord or, you know, quiet time, whatever, those contemplative times in which I would have told you that I was in a conversation with God, not that I heard his voice, but you know how, how it is. I still feel like I have that element in my life. It feels a little bit different. It might just be through meditation, or it might be through just simply reflection, right? Um, but I do think the thing that I miss about a religious tradition are the things that religion does really well. which is ritual, which is community, which is service. There are things that, because these traditions have existed for a really long time, and, um, there are these foundational truths that everyone sort of assents to that allow for things like community and ritual and service to happen really seamlessly. A lot of times it comes along with a dogmatic, what I think is an indefensible dogmatic. You know, belief system that I’m not comfortable being a part of, but there’s a lot of places that have the ritual and the community and the service element and the spiritual practice element that don’t have the dogmatic. Foundational belief system, and I am, I remain tempted to become a part of one of those traditions. I haven’t yet. Do you know? It stays in the back of your mind. And my temptation to do that is that I feel like, uh, I can tend to be pretty, uh, isolated. In my thoughts and the things that I’m doing and thinking about And I think that a lot of times community and service Especially those two things aren’t things that I naturally create for myself and so I think that Uh, faith communities are really good at that, and for people like me, it provides a structure so that You step into it. Yeah, it’s just like, well, okay, fires hit LA, and shit hits the fan, and then there’s groups on the ground doing stuff, and you know, you got people Like, Jenna might have a personality where you’re, shit hits the fan and you’re immediately, like, thinking about all the places you can get plugged in and the things that you can do, right? That’s a certain type of personality. That’s just not, like, I’m kind of, I’m thinking about that to some extent, but I would be much more, and like, you know, we did things and we were a part of some of the relief efforts and raising money and giving money and that kind of thing. It’s not like we didn’t do anything. Mm hmm. But if I was a member of a faith community and they were like, Hey guys, Saturday morning, we’re going to be at the Rose Bowl, bring this, we’re giving it to these, right. I would benefit from some structure like that personally. I think I would too, because I tend to experience paralysis when it’s like, you know, it’s hard to know exactly what to do and how to serve and how to get plugged in. Um, it’s nice when it’s, it’s just plug and play. The community aspect for me is something that I’m, you know, my needs are being met there. I’m pretty social and I’m, you know, I like working at friendships. And I have a, I have a high standard for, for friendships and so like, I invest in that and that, that comes naturally to me. Um, so those, those needs are met in, uh, You know, uh, and you, you know, you can’t meet all my needs. RI can’t meet all yours. This is something that Christie and I talk about as well. You know, it’s like we need other people, you and Christy talk about I can’t meet all your needs. Right. You also talk to Christie about how she can’t meet needs Uh, you know, I have a lot of needs and I think gifts in that area, right? So I, I always got people that I can, I can connect with. Yeah, you’re very good connecting with people and it’s like. It’s not, it’s deeper and it’s valuable and it’s, you know, it’s, when the, when the shit hits the fan, it’s like I got, I would like to think I got a lot of people who would, would come to my aid, so I wouldn’t be pre, wouldn’t be, uh, taxing one person too much. I’m trying to spread my needs around, you know what I’m saying? Yeah. Uh, but yeah, I, the community aspect of church Russell is very plug and play. Of course. It’s, it’s got that like. You can’t choose your family dynamic, you know, that’s the thing i’ve been enjoying is that like i’ve Well, it’s taken a few years, but i’ve been able to be pretty choosy. It’s honestly one of my hesitations It’s just like i’m not gonna like start going to this place And it’s just like what if I don’t like the people and that’s this selfish thing to think Um, but yeah, it’s just like I would like some people I can talk to about some of the things that I think I am You know, interestingly one of the things that I am beginning to do is that there are people Um, out there on the internet who talk about these things in ways that I find compelling and edifying. And I’m beginning to connect with them. And I actually think that, uh, and I might have one or two on the podcast later when you go out of town. What? Um, Great idea. But, um, yeah, I think that there’s, you know, uh, our friend Mike is really good at doing this, at connecting with people that, He connects with people through the internet. It’s not just people who are here, and that’s never been something that you or me have been into. Because all, none of these people that I’m connecting with live in Los Angeles. But there still can be a, there still can be, like, A meaningful conversation and then maybe when I’m like, Oh, I’m traveling. I’m coming to your state. Let’s get together. Like, um, so I don’t know. And again, I all my my one of my many flaws is that I start to connect with somebody. And then I asked myself, Why are you connecting? Like, what is this leading to? Like, what are you gonna do with this person? Does this lead to a project? Like, that’s the part of my brain that always has to create a project out of something. And I’m like, no, no, what if it’s just connection? What if it’s just connecting with them? Just for the sake of connection. Again. I have to like, get my brain out of like project mode, so I’m getting there. So, that’s kind of where I’m at. There’s no big revelations. I haven’t come to some giant conclusion. There’s nothing to share in that area. So, you want to get to the questions? I’m kind of glad. You want to get to the questions? I’m glad you don’t have a revelation. Well, you would already know if I did. Yeah, cause then I’d be like, I’m not, you know. Don’t sign me up for another one. I don’t expect, by the way, to have a big revelation. Just, I mean, I mean, I’m open to it, but it’s not like I’m, It’s not like I feel like something is missing. You’re not looking for it, it’s just implied in the word update. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That there’s gonna be something to, to I don’t feel like anything is missing. But I feel like I’m still in process. Sometimes you’re buying something or you’re booking something or you’re paying for something. And then all of a sudden, bam, you get hit with a fee. Oh man, movie fees, airline fees, concert fees, game fees, brick fees, all types of fees. I’m done with the fees, Rhett. Yeah, you know, when we’re trying to make progress, life’s curveballs often feel like taking one step forward and two steps back. 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Boosts are available to eligible Chime members enrolled in Spot Me and are subject to monthly limits. Timing depends on submission of payment file. Fees apply at out of network ATMs. Hit it. Hi Rhett, hi Link, this is Brittany. Um, I do have a question about your deconstruction. Do you ever get tired of talking about it? Bye! Short and sweet. To the point. Um, yeah, I think we kind of already answered this one. Like, uh, for me the answer is yeah. You know, it’s like, um Because I have concluded, it’s not that I’m, like, that I don’t have, like, Executive function, or maybe that’s not the right word, uh, like that I don’t have beliefs or that I don’t come to, uh, mental conclusions. It’s not like I just, I just experienced my way through life and I don’t really think about anything. It’s, you know, I, I do have thoughts. Okay, you’ve made that clear. I’m full of thoughts. You’ve made that clear. Um, but I’m j I’m just like adamant answers when I do have a foundational belief that you, we really don’t know, so don’t come at me with this. You know? It just, I mean, it just makes me mad. Mm-hmm . And it, and I don’t wanna be mad, you know, and it’s, I don’t think the people who believe that they have answers. Need me to be mad at them, you know, I don’t think that’s you know, it’s just not an exchange that I’m interested in So that’s why I don’t engage there and I definitely don’t want to be the guy who’s saying things and it Inadvertently sway somebody. I don’t know. I just like I so my instinct is just to back away back away. So you want to leave kind of but you know, I’m I’m also I’m glad to be a part of this conversation with you and answer some of these questions. But yeah, I feel that way a lot. You know, it’s like, it’s just not how I, I don’t even, I don’t even, I don’t even have a finish to the sentence. Okay. Yeah, but yeah, a little tired of it. Um, I mean, I will, I’m not gonna lie to you, we considered not even doing this. I mean, I considered not even doing this too. I know if I was like, let’s not do it, you’d be like, okay. Um, I’m torn on this because I do like thinking about it, I do like talking about it, but I don’t necessarily Like talking about it on the internet, um, for a couple of reasons. Like, first of all, I feel like our primary, our primary role in what we do for a living is to, is to make people laugh, right? That’s the main thing that we’re trying to do is just be stupid on the internet. Yeah, or make you feel good. Give you a little break. Sometimes here there’s like, if there’s anything from our experience, That will just make your life better, or some sort of camaraderie, or some sort of life insight, but like, when it gets to these areas Well, I guess what I’m saying is that it’s, uh, it can be antithetical to the way that a lot of our work intersects with people’s lives. We’re bringing you out of all the bullshit. That the world is going through and trying to give you a break. Like I would say that’s what Good Mythical Morning is. And that’s what the vast majority of the content that I’ve ever been involved with is. Um, and while we do aspire to continue to make things that are thoughtful, make people think and, you know, are more creatively ambitious, like Wonderhole and Wonderhole season two, which we should start shooting next week. I’m excited about that. Um, there, it can be a downer. It can be a downer to talk about this stuff. That in, in, in some, to some degree, right? And I just come kind of like, I don’t want to be, I don’t want to be the guy that talks about this. There’s a part of it, is that for me. The second thing is, there is a cadre of people on the internet who love to talk about this from a different perspective and they love to use us. For clicks for content, you know, if you’re gonna write a book about deconstruction, you better put you better put your boys in it You better put your boys in it and they do even this morning There was yeah, you know, we saw that there was a new book coming out and like the social media Like, teaser associated with it, listed all, like, all the things that they cover and the intersection of that in Faith. And it was like, Star Wars, Taylor Swift, Rhett and Link. I was like, well, that’s good company. Yeah, yeah, I’m happy to be in the company. You too. You too. Um, The band, not Yeah, yeah. And so, I don’t like being fodder for content. Like I said when I, when we, when I first told my story, I don’t like being the, the youth pastor. Apologetics curriculum, the basis for the curriculum. And I feel like every time we talk about it, we give people ammunition and we give people content. I’m not thrilled about that. Um, but But there’s also some pressure there, right? Cause it’s like, is everything gonna be analyzed? Yeah, yeah, oh yeah. I’m gonna misspeak because Up one wall and down the other. I’m gonna misspeak because I know a little bit, I don’t know a lot, I’m gonna be wrong, you know? But I’m going to be taken out of context and I’m going to be It’s easy to pick. It’s easy to pick what I say apart because I’m not particularly, I’m not that careful with what I say. I’m not that educated about this stuff. I’m not a scholar, you know. That’s the clip they’re gonna pull right there. And, uh, so it’s pretty easy to pick me apart. But, I, the thing that keeps me Motivated to talk about it. And if I ever talk about it more, if ever lean into like a project of some kind around this subject, it would be because I truly do believe that it can be helpful for people, you know, I’ve heard from enough people where it has been helpful. And I know that when I hear people articulate things that speak to my experience and resonate with my experience, it’s really encouraging to me. Those are the people that I’m connecting with behind the scenes, you know, people who. But I’m like, yeah, I love the way you talk about that. And so if I can provide that, if we can provide that for people, then I think that it’s worth having to put up with the being taken out of context, use for content or being slightly perceived as like talking head, you think, you know, what you’re talking about when you’re just trying to be funny and be lighthearted, you know, so. And, and I’m happy to talk about it. I think the reason why I am participating when I don’t have to is because. This is my experience, and it’s, it’s okay to, what I’m doing is okay, the way that, there’s nothing wrong with the way that I’m feeling or the way that I interact with this, and if that resonates with people, it’s like, hey, you know, you can still be here, you can still listen in, but it doesn’t have to be this life or death, you have to, you have to come to conclusions, and you, the pressure’s on you, you know, it’s like, I’m trying to be here in a way that’s self compassionate, right? Mm hmm. And open, and curious, but not worked up. Don’t get worked up now. I ain’t gonna get worked up about it. Okay, I won’t, I won’t if you don’t. Mm hmm. Let’s hear another question. Hi, Rhett and Link. This is Abby from Salt Lake City, Utah. I wanted to ask you a question about your deconstruction as it relates to your moral compass. I recently deconstructed from my religion, and the one question I get from other religious people is, since you don’t have religion to be your guiding light of morality in life, what do you use as your guiding light? And I feel like my answer is obvious, but I’m curious what your answer is, too. Thanks. Love from Utah. Love back to Utah. This is such a good question. It is so common, right? Yeah. Um, I think the fear of anybody who is in a faith system. and is thinking about leaving it or feels like you’re doubting and feels like you’re in the midst of a deconstruction, there’s a fear that your moral compass will go away with the religious faith system. So I want to speak to that from my experience. My moral compass is the same moral compass that it was when I was a Christian. Um, I think that your moral compass is something that is inherent to the human experience. I think most moral decisions are made by moral intuition. And I think that moral philosophy, religious philosophy and moral philosophy is almost always a retroactive explanation of whatever action you just took. It’s a way of explaining a moral action, but it’s not actually a motivator for moral action. In my experience, that’s definitely the case. I’m still essentially the same person that I was when I was a Christian who believed the Bible. I essentially have the same heart and same attitude towards people and same intuitions from a moral perspective. If you think about it like this, So let’s just say, like, literally, you’ve got, like, if you had a literal moral compass, it was like a compass that you could see and you could look and instead of pointing north, it pointed to good and everyone had one. And there were some people who said this moral compass points to good because God exists and makes it point to good. He’s the ultimate moral, you know, standard bearer. And then others are like, well, this moral compass works because there’s a natural sort of moral magnetic field that points to good. They both still have the compass. It both still points in the same direction. And their understanding of how it works does not really have that much of an implication in terms of where it points and how it works. Um, there are people who are much smarter than me. And you, and you, who can make a really good argument for why morality has to come from God, right? It’s the moral argument for God. It’s a classic argument for God. That basically objective morality exists, and that can only be because of God, right? People can make that argument. Then there are secular people, there are scientists, there, you know, are biologists. Who, evolutionary, uh, biologists, who can say, Well, actually we can explain this from a natural process. Like, we can explain basically every moral intuition based on a natural process of evolution. And again, they can do that in a more eloquent way than me. That’s convincing to me when I hear it. And then there are a lot of other moral philosophies somewhere along the spectrum. Like, is there just objective morality built into the fabric of the universe in the same way there are physical laws? And there, is God the universe itself? Is consciousness the universe? I guess what I’m saying is, is that I’ve never found that Adhering to one of those moral philosophies has much of an impact on my moral behavior. My moral compass is still intact. If it was the case that your moral compass came with your religious philosophy or your moral philosophy, then you would expect that moral behavior would correlate to good behavior. Or, I mean, religio religiosity would correlate to moral behavior. But we actually don’t see that. Now, I’m not, so, The countries in the world that have the lowest level of religiosity have the lowest murder rates, okay? Now, does that mean that religious people are bad and non religious people are good? No, but the least thing that it, at least means, you don’t track moral good to particular moral philosophy and religiosity, right? It seems that there’s something in us, and you don’t have to have the proper understanding or explanation of it in order to be good. So that’s my answer to like, so like a lot of people say things like, When, I, I can’t imagine if I didn’t believe in God. Here’s the list of things that I would do, I would cheat on my wife, I would do drugs, I would treat people badly, I would break the speed limit, I already break the speed limit. Uh, whatever those, that list of things is. And first of all, I’m like, really? I don’t actually believe you. First of all, what does that say about the way you, your moral compass, but I actually don’t believe that’s the case. It’s not how it ever happens to anyone that I’ve seen that leaves behind a religious moral philosophy. But if you said, I don’t know what I would do, I would, and then their list was. I would eat certain forbidden foods, or I would, I would be gay. Okay, so now you’re talking about, so, then, right, so I’m talking about, I’m talking about general moral intuition, right? Which would fall, you know, roughly into, like, Hema Rabbi’s code or the Ten Commandments or whatever. Uh huh. That, that your impulse to, oh, there’s a child, uh, going by in an icy river, I’m gonna jump in. You don’t think, let me look at my moral philosophy and see if this is legit before I do it. You do it, and then you maybe say, well I did it because I’m a Christian. Or I did it because I’m a humanist. But when it comes to specific sort of, uh, I don’t want to say tertiary, but things like, the way you see gay people, right? Yeah, I do think that your particular moral philosophy Has an impact on this and I think this is where for my my experience, which I would say now I roughly subscribe to what you might call a secular humanist moral philosophy, right? It’s that what is moral correlates with what is best for human flourishing or maybe the flourishing of conscious creatures Some people use that terminology to spread it out beyond humans and that the way that I determine that is through a combination of reason empathy harm reduction To try to figure out what actually brings about the best situation for people, right? Not a law book, not a book, or not God dictating these laws. So when it comes to somebody who’s gay, when I was a Christian, what I would say is, Well, it’s wrong to be gay. Actually, I would have said, It’s not wrong to be gay, it’s wrong to do gay stuff, you know, we had a way of delineating those two, uh, and so we were like, so you should remain celibate, or you shouldn’t get married, or whatever, and now if I evaluate that particular moral situation through a secular humanist framework, and it’s about human flourishing, I would be like, well, actually, Based on my experience and the people that I know who are gay, who are in a relationship, I think that it’s better for them to embrace their sexuality and be in a meaningful, loving relationship, a consenting adult relationship, than it is for them to deny their sexuality and be celibate or force themselves to deconvert, you know, or go through conversion therapy and try to, you know, become heterosexual. The interesting thing is, is even when I was a Christian, I was really uncomfortable with what I had to believe about gay people based on my commitment as an evangelical Christian. It actually wasn’t consistent with my moral compass. And it was where my moral compass was the same that it’s always been, but my moral philosophy was in slight conflict with my moral compass. And then I had to think and believe and say things that actually I didn’t really feel to be true. And now that my moral philosophy is something that’s based on human flourishing, it’s consistent. And I can say, I actually have a reason for why I think that now that they’re consistent. But I kind of always thought the same thing, if that makes sense. And I think that, first of all, my experience post deconversion is That my, yeah, my instinct to be the type of person that I can stand, you know, I stand behind my actions, you know, uh, there’s an, there’s integrity, there’s all of my, I haven’t, I haven’t done anything. I haven’t gone nuts. I haven’t gone wild, like no wild oats type thing. It’s far, I mean, um, now, we talk about like, like, assessing morality from the outside, but if you are gay, your experience Is that, okay, if I am true to myself, this is, this is good. This is good. And this is true to who I am. You know, it’s like when you’re, when you’re on the inside of that experience, it’s different than on the outside and like issuing it as, uh, a law. Now, I’m going to play devil’s advocate for a moment, right, because I used to be a very good Christian debater, right, and I would have said, Okay, so, if a gay person, if what you’re saying is that the standard is to be true to yourself, what about the pedophile? A pedophile being true to themselves is attracted to children. Should they therefore have a relationship with children? Now, again, there’s a really easy answer to this. It’s not a gotcha. Like a lot of Christian moral philosophers like to think. Because the big difference is, is that there’s no, the problem with the pedophile relationship is that there’s a child involved who cannot consent to this. We’re talking about harm reduction and consent. These, these are actually not that, it’s not that complicated. Like, we can have a consistent moral philosophy that is based on embracing yourself and harm reduction. And obviously, you cannot have There cannot be a relationship, a sexual relationship between an adult and a child that doesn’t cause harm, right? It causes harm. And so, I would just say, I would just be, I would just be careful if it, when we talk about, it’s about being true to yourself. It’s like, I do believe that, but the reason you can be true to yourself and your sexuality, if you’re gay, or if you’re bi, is because you can do that in a way, That continues human flourishing with you and the person that you’re in a relationship with like you’re not it doesn’t compromise human flourishing I’m just I’m just yeah, yeah once you get into like so just make making that point because that’s the thing that yeah Again, I’ve got I never I never don’t have the the old Rhett on my shoulder ready to shoot down your new argument Okay. Yeah, anytime you want to bring pedophiles into this Fine. Re next question. Hi. Re and link. I have a, a question about deconstruction to preface. I have a similar story to y’all. Um, my name is Allison. I grew up in rural North Carolina, near locusts, if you know where that is. Yep. Uh, I went to UNC Chapel Hill and I did Campus Crusade and I grew up Southern Baptist. Okay. When I moved to New York City about five or six years ago, I began the deconstruction process or what I would consider the deconstruction process at least. Um, but I’m still sick of it. And my question to y’all is, do you ever worry that you’re wrong? And if you do worry that you’re wrong, that maybe there is a God, and there is a Christian God. Do you ever worry about health? I, as I said, I’m a Southern Baptist, so it’s been always on my mind. Anyway, uh, love y’all. Thank you for what you do. You worry about hell man? I don’t think about it. Yeah, I, I mean, again as a, this is a personal assertion that I’ve made. Like, I’ve just come, I just don’t, I just find myself being compelled that there’s, that that just doesn’t make sense. Oh, because I, because it makes you feel good, comforts you, lets you go on sinning. Um, I just don’t, yeah. I don’t buy it. I don’t buy it. I don’t buy it either. Uh, you know, I like everything about you except the fact that you went to UNC Chapel Hill. But you know what my beautiful wife did as well? Um, we talked about this last year, but it’s such a good question and it’s such a common question that I think it’s worth talking about again. So, I can honestly say, and again, this is my experience. I can honestly say that I do not ever fear hell, right? I did for a while, especially in the midst of deconstruction, but No, this is not an issue for me now and for me The reason I don’t fear hell is the same reason that I didn’t fear Dying and coming back as a grasshopper when I was a christian Because I didn’t believe in reincarnation. Mill billions of people do believe in reincarnation. But I didn’t. And so, therefore, I never thought about that outcome. It never crossed my mind. It’s the same reason that when I go camping I’m not scared that Bigfoot’s gonna come and attack me, because I don’t believe in Bigfoot. Now, I’m not saying that belief in hell, or belief in reincarnation, is equal to belief in Bigfoot, or as unreasonable as a belief in Bigfoot, but I’m just using that as an example to say that if you don’t believe that something is real, then you don’t fear it. Now, how does that apply to hell? Now, for me, hell was a, like a late part of my deconstruction. It’s the first part for a lot of people because they’re uncomfortable with it. A lot of Christians even begin negotiating the concept of hell and say it’s not eternal and it’s whatever, you know. Because it’s uncomfortable. Rightly so, you have a heart, it makes you feel uncomfortable that God might send the majority of the people that he created to eternal torment forever because they did not choose him. Having a problem with that just means you’re a sane human being. But, fearing it is based in buying into the system that presents it as a reality. I lost my faith in the system and so hell kind of fell through the cracks with it. But since my deconstruction, as we’ve talked about, I tend to be, I’m still really interested in this and I continue to study all this stuff and listen to a lot of people who are smarter than me who study it and are always in the deep end. And one of the fascinating things about hell is that the concept of hell, probably what you have in your mind when you think about fearing hell. I’m going to say is not a Biblical conception. If you look at the Bible and you’re only coming to conclusions about what the afterlife is based on the Bible, and you’re taking the Bible at its word, it’s going to get a little bit weird. It’s going to start out as like people believed in Sheol, which is tattooed on my arm right here, which is a place that everybody went to regardless of what you believed. And it was a dark and dreary place. And there was some weird underworld kind of aspect to it. But then you see Because every biblical writer is influenced by the environment and the culture that they’re writing in that once you get these guys writing And yes, it was guys all guys writing. Um In this time when they’re influenced by greco roman and hellenistic ideas about the afterlife all of a sudden you’ve got heaven and you’ve got hell so now you got two options and you go to one or you go to the other based on You know, your belief system or your behavior or whatever it was, but even then this idea of a place of eternal torment and fire and brimstone, a lake of fire, you start seeing some of that in Revelation, this is not A perfect, you know, solitary, homogenous picture that the Bible creates. But because of the extra biblical idea, you know, Dan McClellan, um, is great at talking about this. Essentially, you know, the idea of the univocality of the Bible, which is something that we believed when we were Evangelical Christians, is that the Bible is God’s word. And so it’s consistent in everything that it touches on, because it’s one voice, right? It’s one voice, and that’s God’s voice told through people. But it doesn’t contradict itself. That’s the idea. And so, therefore, you have to take all these instances of talk about the afterlife and you have to put them together in one conceptualization of hell. And that was something that, once the Bible came together, after all these books had been written, and the church fathers were figuring out, You know, what are the true books of the Bible, what’s the canon, which happened a couple hundred years later after it was finished, right, been written, when it was finalized, at least. That was when they were also finalizing this concept of hell, and specifically what it is, and what you now fear. And I will say, it’s a really, really effective mechanism to keep people in the religion. Get them in by promising eternal life in heaven, keep them in by saying if you leave you’re going to go to the bad place. These are really, really good, it’s why religion is really popular, it’s really, really effective, it’s great propaganda. But when you are able to see the human origins of it. When you see that, oh, this is stuff people made up like this is stuff people made up. It was influenced over time and you see the way it comes together again. I’m not a scholar. I’m missing pieces of it. There’s people who talk about this in much more compelling ways than me, but I’ve been really convinced that it’s of human origin and it’s just like when you’re watching a horror movie, sometimes I’m watching a horror movie and I love watching horror movies and horror movies are very, very scary, but I know they’re not real. And one of the ways that. You know, you watch a horror movie, and I completely give myself over to it in the moment. I let it scare the hell out of me, right? But then I gotta go to sleep. And the way I go to sleep after I’ve watched a really scary horror movie is I start thinking about the fact that that movie was created by people. And I start thinking about that scene where she, like, her head spun around. I wonder how they did that. Oh, that was probably a machine. There was probably, like, uh, a tube that went into this machine and peas shot out of it. It probably wasn’t even peas. It was probably some Peas. I’m thinking about the human element of it, and it takes the teeth out of it for me. Okay. I’m able to see that this is a human creation. It’s not real. And so for me, understanding the human origins of the concept of hell was the most significant thing for me to completely no longer worry about it. If my daughter wronged me and I gave opportunity after opportunity for her to, um, to repent, to be You know, to, to, if it broke our relationship, to come back into that relationship, and she, but it, she never took those opportunities. Like, A, I would still love her deeply. I would be hurt deeply. I would mourn that loss. Um, I just have a hard time thinking that, uh, she should be eternally punished for it. You know, I just What if she chooses that? I love her too much. Hey, all she’s doing is choosing not to be in a relationship with you, Link. You got to let her do that. And being apart from God, that’s all hell is. But then I create the hell that she goes to, so I’m in charge of that. It’s pretty effed up. You’re right. I’m just I just don’t that’s why I’m like, I don’t buy it. It’s just like, uh, you know, it’s and I’ve made a I’ve made a path for her to come back to me. You I know what you can do, is you can Become a baby right and save her from your the punishment that you created, but she still has punished the baby, which is you. Yeah, yeah, and I I’m I’m I’m very willing to do that and I think that there’s some maybe there’s some beauty in that, but I I’m still requiring her to. Make a decision about it or to, uh, to find herself to be compelled to not only decide mentally, but to believe it with her entire being. And if she doesn’t, that’s still, she’s still gotta, she’s still gotta burn. I just can’t. But you were a Calvinist, man. You were, you were in the, you were in the Reformed Presbyterian thing. I was. So it really didn’t matter anyway. It’s like, did you choose to love her or not? It was a good homeschool community. Okay. You know, so it was like, The praise and worship sucked. Uh, well I was, yeah. I mean, I mean, I was in charge of it. No, but it was just the songs. The music, the songs themselves. It was the songs they let you sing. It wasn’t you, it was the songs they let you sing and didn’t let you sing, okay? Right. Hey Rhett and Link, it is Hunter from Maryland. Um, I wanted to thank y’all for doing this episode every year. It’s been really helpful for me in my own personal deconstruction, um, to the point that I even read. Rhett’s recommendation of Stories We Tell Ourselves by Richard Holloway, uh, which is an excellent book. Um, anywho, my question is, um, the anniversary of my mom’s passing was a couple days ago, uh, and one of the things that was really difficult for me during my deconstruction was letting go of the idea that I would see her in heaven again. Um, I was wondering if you guys had any similar experiences in how you kind of came out on the other side. Thanks again, guys. I mean, is that in the Bible, that you’re gonna see your dead relatives when you get to heaven anyway? Yeah, it is, but it is definitely not the focus is a good point because the emphasis, if you look at every time the Bible talks about heaven, the primary focus. is people’s relationship with God, experiencing a perfect, unfettered relationship with God. And the one time that Jesus is asked a question about the nature of an earthly relationship and how it transfers into heaven is about marriage. And he basically says there is no marriage in heaven. So, if you ain’t gonna have your wife in heaven, if you’re not gonna be in that type of relationship, it seems to indicate, from a Christian perspective, heaven is not about seeing other people. Not that you won’t. Cause there are some passages that imply that you will be able to recognize people, but it’s gonna be different and it ain’t gonna be the same from the Christian standpoint. So I would say that like, the way that we think about heaven when we put it in movies, it’s not a very biblical view of heaven, which seems to be much more about, you know, you and God. That’s why, like, in the churches that we grew up in, they were like so Um, adamant about sticking to the text and we actually didn’t talk about heaven that much because we certainly didn’t talk any about like these relationships. And like, if you want, a motivation for heaven is that the, to continue these earthly relationships. It, it wasn’t used as a motivation, as far as I can recall. No, and really if you think Because, because there wasn’t enough biblical backing to really push really wasn’t as much about heaven, it was about the new earth that God is going to establish. Yeah. But it was, it’s very, it was, it’s not Like heaven and hell with like a strict biblical, uh, exegesis or whatever is not, you know, it’s not a, there’s not a robust amount of information there that’s like, yeah, this is what it’s like and streets of gold. And well, but here’s the thing, but let’s just be honest here. Uh, let’s just go with the sort of conventional popular conception of heaven, which is. You get to see the people that you love. I’ll see him again one day in heaven. And I’ll know it’s him, and he’ll know it’s me, whatever. Mm hmm. This is certainly a more comforting thing to believe. When someone is dying, or, I’m the world’s worst at saying the right thing when someone has lost someone. Okay, I gotta work, I need a class or something, I need at least a YouTube video. I’m not good at comforting people, it’s just not my thing, and I’d like to get better at it. They’re in a better place. But, when you got the religious card to pull out, and you can be like, they’re in a better place, um, You’ll see him again one day. Like these are better things to say than the particular consciousness that you understood and knew as your grandfather ceased to exist a few days ago and will never exist. And when you die, that will also happen to you. And so, good luck, buddy. You know what I mean? Like, that’s not particularly comforting. I will say, it’s not that uncomforting to me at this point in my life. When, I, I, I used to sit in my bed as a boy. And, uh, I would think about, you know, when you start thinking about eternity. You start thinking about heaven, you start thinking about, I’m gonna be there forever and then I’m going to be there forever, and then I’m going to be there forever, and it’s never going to end, and I can’t imagine how awesome it’s going to be, and maybe time won’t mean the same thing, but as me, this little finite boy who’s stuck in space and time right now, that is a terrifying thing to think about, regardless of how good it is. Vampires are not the most satisfied individuals. Right. There are times, you know, when I start thinking about the fact that one day I’ll cease to exist altogether, and it’s not. And first of all, I may, I may go on. I’m not saying, I don’t know. There may be an afterlife. It’d be cool. I want to see other planets. I’ve made this clear. Maybe that’s part of it. But, um, if it’s not the case, For personally, it doesn’t bother me that much, but I will say that religion has the advantage in the Talking about death and comforting people which ding ding ding should be a hint for maybe one of the reasons we came up with it Yeah, you know what I’m saying? I mean, I have not experienced the loss of of like You know, I, I mean, it, that is a different thing that, like, we’ve not felt. Exactly. You know, and, but I do, like, I think about Christy passing and I do think that it’ll be like, well, we had a good run. You know, I just think I’ve, I’ve believed this enough that I’m like, yeah, I’m making the most of this. Making most of the time that I know that I’ve got be a bonus if there’s some sort of relationship on the other side, but you know Human experience dictates that all good things must end. That’s just how it’s what happens Yeah, we experienced that all the time and it’s in sometimes it’s absolutely heart wrenching and I don’t know it’s I don’t want to keep talking about it because I like I said, I haven’t experienced it and I know that like I’ve got Relatives who have and they take God forbid losing a child, take comfort in that when you when you lose someone that it feels like they went before their time and then and then you’re just like, that’s it. You can see how the idea that, well, it’s not it. In fact, you’ll spend most of your existence with them. It’s just a little break. This is a really comforting thing to believe, a really comforting thing to be able to say to someone. Yeah. In fact, it’s so comforting that there are times when I think that it’s just worth believing it and, and, and, and, and I, yeah. I don’t, don’t argue with people when somebody’s on a deathbed. I can’t believe it, but this is why. You talk about like us talking about this Um, I’ve become more sensitive to like not wanting to talk people out of it, right? Right, because if you got your shit together and you this is what you believe and it like works for you I really don’t want to come along and and first of all, i’m probably not going to let’s just be honest Like if you want to believe what people believe what they want to believe Nothing. I nothing i’m going to say don’t piss in quarantine. They’re gonna let me like make people think that god’s not real. So um You Like, if they’re already, if they got one foot out the door and they’re like, I kind of don’t buy this, then I think some of the things we say might be compelling, but like, um, I just think this idea of, you know, I, okay, I have many relatives who are still very strong Christians and not happy that I’m not, right? Mm hmm. And. I never talk to them about this stuff. They will ask me questions about it, and I will do my damnedest to change the subject. I do not want you to stop believing. I am not trying to talk you out of this. I ain’t trying to make your life more complicated. I don’t want you to have to figure out where you’re going to go on Sunday. Like, this works for you. Keep doing it. You know what I’m saying? Because if the idea that you’re not gonna get to see somebody, or whatever the comfort that it brings you, it’s just like, who am I to take that from you? It’s not that important. Jenna, can I put you on the spot? You know, I always appreciate what you have to say about death. You’re um, I know you’re You’re cool talking about death. Yeah, you’re smiling right now She loves not you. You’re not taking joy in it, but you’re I’ve you’re familiar with it. I’m quite familiar with it Yeah, yeah, the years have Have been unkind in the death thing. So yeah, I’ve got quite comfortable with it. What’s the question? What do you wanna know? Huh? I guess the question is there’s like how do you deal with? The desire to want Your relationships to be forever, but then the if you have the belief that they’re not how do you get? Uh, I mean Where are you at on that? I don’t think that uh I think my relationships are forever because the feelings that I Had for those people when they were alive are still the feelings I have for them now So for me those relationships are not gone. They are just different Um I, I like the idea of the, the science behind, um, Newton’s third law, uh, um, energy is neither created nor destroyed, it merely changes form. Uh, and I like to think that about our intellectual and, um, our, our souls essentially, I guess would be the easiest way. So I don’t think that. The people that I lost are gone. Do you talk to dead people? I talk to dead people, yeah. I don’t do that, but I um, Yeah, I think that that’s uh, I find that more comforting than trying to talk to an entity I’m not sure exists. It’s easier to talk to a past loved one for me than to say, talk with a God I guess It’s far easier for me to imagine my loved ones responses, you know, you always get those like, oh man real glad I hope my dad’s not watching that one or or you know, like oh my dad be super proud of that shit that I said Things like that that like So I don’t my view is that they’re not My relationship with them is still there. It’s just different. I like that. Let’s get another. Hey Rhett and Link, my name is Lainey from Texas. First off, love you guys and the show. But getting more into the deconstruction. So I’ve never been the most Religious person. I always kind of felt like I had to fake my way through church and church camp and things like that. However, there are certain situations, like when I’m on an airplane, where I get this overwhelming feeling to pray. And I always joked with, like, my Christian friends that, oh, the higher in the sky, the better the reception is to God. And they always got a kick out of that. Or when just life itself is just really bumpy, sometimes I do feel like I need to pray. And so I just wanted to know What y’all do now after deconstructing, and if there is something that you do to kind of calm yourself, or if you do find yourself praying still, or if it’s just kind of peaceful to be with yourself in that moment, I guess, anyways, thank y’all so much, love the show, peace out. There ain’t no atheists in foxholes or in airplanes. Um. It, you know, I shared this story, uh, on Rainn Wilson’s podcast, which I don’t know if We don’t know when that’s coming out. It might be out. It might be coming out soon. Just look for, uh, what’s the name of his podcast? Soul Bloom. Soul Bloom. Boom. No L. Yep. I knew that. Right. Yeah. So we had an amazing in person conversation with Rain. Uh, so check that out when it comes out. And I, it was very fresh at the time. Uh, but I’ll, I’ll. It’s surprising to me. Yeah. You didn’t, you didn’t know I was going to say this, that I prayed. You prayed. Like a few days before. Having not prayed at all for a long time. I’ve always struggled with prayer. Um, you know, the philosophy of it. Um, why on earth would Okay, so I’m going to ask For something from God, I’m going to, I’m going to try to get God to move on, on my behalf or for somebody else or for myself. And it’s like, I just don’t, yeah, really, really, that’s a lot of pressure. And it’s also like, uh, a little too much honor. I don’t know. I just, you know, it just, it was always hard for me to make that add up. I didn’t know how to interact with it, especially when I was then in a place where it was like, and such an emphasis on God’s sovereignty that. God’s going to do what God’s going to do. Yeah, we were in some traditions that really hampered that whole thing. Um, but I found myself super sad for something that Christy was going through. That’s not my story to tell, but I found myself just feeling for her and wanting. Uh, just wanting help for her and there not being any, any immediate answers. So, while down in that foxhole, I was like, you know what, I’m just going, I’m just going to, I’m just going to pray. And so I prayed for Christy. I asked God to What did you say? Did you say God? I just, I didn’t say dear God, I didn’t write a verbal letter. You didn’t say Heavenly Father? I didn’t, no, I didn’t say Heavenly Father, and I didn’t say what I would, what I used to say when I felt, when I would be compelled to pray as a Christian, but I would always have to start with, I’m so sorry that I haven’t prayed in so long. But I, I’ve, I’m really at a point where I need to and no, this one was just, I just shot. I just, I just, I just asked. I was like, I don’t know. It just, it felt like an experiment. It just felt like a bit of a whim, but my heart was in it in that I desired for her to be held in a way that I couldn’t. And I didn’t see a way forward. I had no answers. And I think that it was short. It was. It was sweet. It was heartfelt. Um, and then I just, you know, I didn’t overthink it. Um, now having been months later, I think that there, there are things that have happened that I could, I could say were answers to prayer, you know, that there’s, um, just a positive trajectory in terms of like that issue with Christy. Um, but I just don’t, I’m not, I don’t find myself like. Wanted to say that’s what did it, you know, I but I don’t think it it certainly didn’t hurt and I do think it helped Immediately in terms of being an exercise in empathy There’s a there’s a form of meditation that where you can focus on somebody in their situation Maybe it’s somebody that you’re frustrated with or an enemy a loving kindness meditation. Yeah, where or Somebody that you love and you’re just spending time just letting your heart go out to them, kind of putting yourself in their shoes and it, it evokes empathy, like it gave me a perspective and a capacity to. Interact with her in a more loving way than I think if I hadn’t done it in that instant. Mm hmm. Now, and as I’m saying that out loud, I’m like, that’s something. Mm hmm. That’s valuable. Maybe I should be doing that more. Why wouldn’t I be? Mm. You know? Um, Well, first of all, thank you for praying. For a couple reasons. Number one, I think we have a title to our video. It might be, Link is Now Praying, or Link Finally Prayed. I’m thinking of something that’s sensational that’ll get clicks. I feel like that’s good. So thanks for that. For if for no other reason. Yeah. Thank you for praying. Link gives prayer a shot again. Uh, we’ll think of the most sensational way to put that and there might be another title link prayed and you wouldn’t believe what happened. There might be a better title. We don’t know. I’m not committing to it. I’m just saying it’s a great option. Link discovers the true power of prayer. But I don’t think, I think that this is beautiful, man. I think it was beautiful. Um, because. And I, actually, I don’t, like, I don’t necessarily, I completely agree with your, the, what my therapist would call the intellectualizing process that you just went through to help explain it and almost justify it, which is what I do as I’m talking about my feelings in therapy, is you’re intellectualizing, you’re, you’re trying to make this logical, like, uh, just feel it. Um, uh, And I agree, I mean, I agree with you. I think that it’s because you have this impulse to, you, you want to help somebody, you feel helpless, and there is this thing that you can do where you call on God, the universe, whatever, the powers that be that might be able to intercede on this person’s behalf. And it’s a great way to focus and to love them, right? I’m the same, I’m in the same boat as you, man. When I was a Christian, I remember thinking like, Is God just waiting? It doesn’t make sense that God is waiting for me to get to this part of my checklist, so he’ll then be like, Alright, now I can do this. It didn’t seem consistent with my experience. It didn’t seem consistent with what I understood about God. And so the way that I talked about it was, Well, prayer is mostly about me connecting with God. It’s about having a time to really connect with God and to see what He’s got for me, not what I got for Him. Yeah, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And I think that there’s a beautiful aspect of that, but I actually think that this prayer that you’re talking about is more beautiful because you’re actually connecting with God. Christy, you’re connecting with the recipient of the, the need, you know, and I do think that like the love and kindness meditation, like where you expand the circle and you think about specific people, it’s like, I knew people, I knew Christians who would spend a day praying for people. And they were like, you’re on my prayer list. And like, they would be like, I prayed for you yesterday. And I always felt so connected to that person. Now I would have been like, that person is super spiritual. That person is so in the Lord’s will. And they’re just really living it. And, you know, in a sense for them, that’s what they were doing. But I think that they were just really good, loving people who cared about other people. And. Sure, maybe often, it might be, well, what can I do to actually intercede physically and personally for this person to help them with this problem? But sometimes you just can’t do that. Sometimes all you can do is call upon the Lord. And so I just think that I, I think that’s, I think it’s a beautiful thing that you do that. Sometimes, like, you, you’re thankful, like, something goes well, and you want to be like, thank you, God. I thank God for things all the time. When something happens, or like, I’m eating a really good meal, you know, it’s just like, I got to thank somebody besides myself. Uh huh. You know? And It’s maybe the chef. Yeah. Well when I get past the chef, okay, just for the experience of it So it’s just I don’t know like the gratitude of it is yes is is Valuable. Yeah, it it centers you as a it and shapes you as a better person is what I experienced in that Moment, you know, but the whole thoughts and prayers and that’s good enough You don’t want to fall in that boat, and you won’t. You won’t. You’re not. You just prayed once, man. Don’t get worried. You just prayed once. You’re not about to be a thoughts and prayers guy. I mean, I will say that that is a, it’s so easy to say, I’m praying for you. Like the number of times that I told people I was praying for them, and now I can’t say that when they’re going through hard stuff, and I just feel the emptiness in it when I say, Amen. You’re on my heart or I’m thinking about you. I say sending love. Hoping for the best or whatever. And then I’m kind of like, what is that? But then you could be like, well, it’s not any different, man. It’s vibes. It’s you, it’s you letting you, it’s letting them know that you care. Yeah. That’s what you’re doing when you say I’m praying for you. It really is. That’s what I believe, you know? Mm hmm. So, um, I’m glad you prayed. I’m glad I did, too. Did you tell Christy? Yeah, I think that was also part of it. Like, I’m gonna, I’m gonna tell her that I did this, and I think that will make her Brownie points. I want to see how she reacts. Brownie points. Maybe I get brownie points, but I think me telling her will make her feel better. Hey, I was thinking about you. When I send her a text, it makes her happy. When I don’t send her texts, she’s like, well Why didn’t you text me? Yeah, all right. Here. Another 1. Hey, guys, this is Sam. I’m calling from Butler, Pennsylvania. I’m calling to ask a question about deconstruction. So, I deconstructed probably 5 years ago now, and my question is, um. How do you deal with the anger? How do you get through the anger phase of deconstruction? Um, there’s lots of trauma there. Um, I grew up in purity culture, a woman in the church, all that good stuff. Um, so yeah, my question is how do you get through the anger phase? Um, love you guys, love to hear about your deconstructions. Definitely made me feel less alone, um, when I heard your stories. So, thanks, love you, bye. So, you know, I would say as a woman. In the church, you have had an experience that I cannot relate to. Um, for me, it’s pretty awesome. It was pretty awesome, like, being the one that was supposed to be in charge. Was the one that got to talk. Was the one that got to lead. Was the one that got to be in charge of my family. Like, it’s pretty, Christianity is pretty awesome for dudes. Yeah. You know, I’m just gonna be straight up with you. It’s one of the reasons that dudes are really into it right now, if you haven’t been paying attention. Christian nationalism is a pretty cool thing for dudes. Not so much for the women folk. And, uh, the experience of a woman in the church, I mean, I’m married to a woman who was in the church, you are too. And they have a very different perspective. And when they start getting honest, and they start telling you what they were thinking, and how they, what they were experiencing, and the lies that they were telling to themselves in order to kind of get through what they were going through, It’s like, whoa, I am very ashamed that I was a part of that, honestly. Um, and so I’m sorry, for you, to you. That this is your experience and you have every right to be angry and listen There’s a lot of people who it might not just be because you’re a woman It might be and this is the common story with a lot of people is that you were done wrong You were betrayed you were abused these stories are super common And so there’s a lot of trauma and with that trauma comes a lot of anger and I’m not a therapist But I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being angry and working through that anger. I am, I almost feel guilty, you know, I kind of feel like one of the people in the fires whose house didn’t get burned down and every house around me got burned down when I think about my deconstruction because I wasn’t betrayed, I wasn’t let down, I wasn’t, you know, I didn’t have somebody do something crazy. It caused me to be disillusioned. I just started reading. I mean, honestly, it’s like, that was my experience. Yeah, but for yours, I mean, I would just say therapy. Yeah, yeah. So, it’s uh, but I Anger’s not bad. And it’s like you said, it’s justified, but you got to find a way to work with it and, and through it. Yeah, but I, what I will say is that there, what, you know, there is an anger that happens that’s not as personal. And that is the, I would say the anger that I experienced was an anger of. Just like kind of mad at myself in one sense, like feeling like you got duped and feeling like you were lied to. There’s an initial sort of, Oh man, I can’t believe I believe this and I can’t believe that they made me believe this and I can’t believe that they gave me these really bad answers to my questions and that I kept believing them for so long and they weren’t good answers. And I finally realized that I’m so mad like you kind of go through that phase initially. But the thing that has helped me with that is, man, everybody’s just doing the best that they can. You know, I like, okay, are there some truly evil people in the church? Yeah, well, there’s some truly evil people everywhere. There are truly evil people in every movement, every institution, every organization, every city, every neighborhood, and they find their way into everything. But the vast majority of people I think are just Just trying to get by they’re just trying to make decisions to make their lives Okay, and lives good for the people that they love and you know a lot of people You’re religious or you’re a Christian or whatever because your parents were or you kind of realize that I got what? There’s got to be more to life. And, and then when people start tearing down your belief system, or you watch a YouTube video that makes you doubt something, and then you go and Christian’s got a good answer for it. And you’re like, okay, well, Jesus did resurrect. Okay. It’s reasonable for me to believe this. And, uh, you, you go through the process of sort of building your faith back up. That is a totally natural thing. And I don’t think. Like I’ve gotten to a place where I’m not mad at the people who are defending the Christian faith or continuing the Christian faith, or being AP apologists for it, or giving answers that I actually think are bullshit. I’m not mad at them because they’re doing exactly what I did. Sure. And what I would do and what I would be doing if my life hadn’t been a little bit different. Right. I’m not any better. I just went on a different path and you know, so it’s like I’m not mad at my old self. I’m not mad at the church. You know, I’m mad at people who do bad stuff, but that’s everywhere. People do it in all kinds of, the name of all kinds of things, and we should take a stand against that. But the people who get caught up in these things, it’s like you just can’t, you know, but again, that’s different. It’s different. If you’re a woman, if you were abused, you got a different story. Yeah, I’ll say to that as well, just that I mean, that’s kind of a lot of the woman’s existence within those kind of patriarchal structures anyways. And when you find when you come to terms with it and that anger hits. It’s like you also deal with the shame of we are told we’re not supposed to be angry. So I don’t know. I would, I would sit with that anger. I would lean into it. I’d, I’d have a good time with that. Sometimes doing things out of spite, it’s really fun. So agreed. I would like if more women got a little angry, and, and just embraced it, and, and that’s okay, because we’re allowed to have the full spectrum of emotions. And women got a lot to be angry about. Yes, just as much as, as men, men are told, men are kind of told the only emotions that is ever okay for them. And I just want to say to the men out there too, you can have a full spectrum of emotions as well. We can all have those. Yeah. I think somebody who’s been really pivotal in talking about this issue, which I’m hoping to have her on as one of my guests. I’ve been talking to her about it. Yeah. Uh, is, uh, Brittany Hartley. Uh, she’s got a TikTok account, if that’s still a thing. Uh, No Nonsense Spirituality is the name of her brand. It’s also the name of her book. And she is a deconstructed Mormon, who actually does a really good job of talking about this from the perspective of a woman and two women in a way that’s really meaningful and says a lot. Really compelling stuff. We’re probably going to be talking about her book, so if you want to, if you want to get ahead of it, I don’t know when we’re going to do this, but if you want to get ahead of it and go ahead and read Brittany’s book, No Nonsense Spirituality, which if you’re somewhere down the line of deconstruction, if you’re like, this is not a book for people who are like still in the, in the faith, but it’s people who are, you know, trying to figure out what spirituality looks like. During and post deconstruction, I think she talks about it in as compelling of a way as I’ve, I’ve seen. So it really talks a lot about this, how different it is. It was really eye opening for me. I mean, I was like, I went to talk to Jesse right after I listened to this one chapter. I was like, and even though I’ve understood, like Jesse talks about her trauma in a very different way because she basically like took a completely different path and she probably would have taken if she wasn’t in the church. Um, but like, yeah, It’s a big wake up call for men, you know, like we, we, we, but there’s just so many things that we don’t understand about the advantages, um, that we have enjoyed, especially in religious spaces. And I would say in post religious spaces, it continues and that’s what she helps people see. Hey, Rhett and Link. My name is Natalie. I’m from Sacramento. I just moved down here to Alhambra, California. So, I’m new to the SoCal region. Um, what I wanted to ask about, well, here’s a little background. Um, I’ve been deconstructing, um, from my Christian religion for three and a half years now. Um, I was raised Seventh day Adventist. So, you know, we’re kind of a A different kind of crazy, in my opinion, but, um, something that still bothers me to this day, that I’m wondering if you guys have a similar experience with, is praise music. Um, I find praise music to be very triggering. I can remember going to church, church camps and youth groups and vespers and stuff like that and, you know, singing praise music. But, everyone around me would be like sobbing and crying and I, I didn’t know. Why I was sobbing and crying, too, and I didn’t know why I couldn’t stop, so even now I can’t appreciate the music anymore, it’s just very triggering, so I’m just wondering if, since you guys, you know, you’re musicians, you love music, do you have things like that? How do you overcome those things? I’m, I’m lost. Um, yeah, I appreciate it. Thanks, you guys. Music is an amazing, like, mainline to emotion. And connecting the artist you’re listening to with your own experience, or if it’s directed towards a certain subject matter, or circumstance, or spiritual reality, it, it’s a, it’s a different way. than just a cognitive intellectual way to connect. And there’s something almost magical about the ability, um, the way that we as humans respond to music. Um, not to mention, Other B, other Animals, plants in some studies, some studies, question mark. Um, so within the church, uh, all of these things can be used to create, uh, a rewarding, edifying, connecting experience to God. You might also say that it could be a tool to simulate that. You know, um, it’s interesting because I’m such an experienced person and I’m also such a music lover that my experience within the church was, it was a bit detached. I think another part of me is that I’m, like, to emotionally connect with something. Like, I, I have a bit of a block when it comes, like, I don’t emotionally con, I don’t cry during movies. Or like you do during, like, a well made commercial. A well made commercial. Like, I don’t do that, right? Um, it’s just, I think it’s just a make up and a personality type. So, as much as I love music, it’s not because it makes me weep. There’s very few times that it’s done that. Within the context of church, it, that was kind of my experience too. Like, I, I would look around and see people having Like a full body emotional experience, and I just can’t recall ever having that myself, I would try, I would, I would close my eyes really aggressively, and I would raise my hand, but what I, because I, music was so important to me, I found myself in a position where I was leading the music at Campus Crusade. And then, like, because we were in a band, practically, I had the skills to be in front of people leading a band while singing. And, um, it also appealed to me because I’m not, I like being in front of people. Um, but it created Um, a bit of a crisis for me because it, it was the, the main, the job was to usher people into a connection with God, not to like be entertained by me. And I understood that. And so. I would study those who were good at creating that environment and do the best I could to do that. Even, like, uh, after Campus Crusade, like, after college, like, I led the praise and worship music at my church. And it was like the, the band leader and organizer. And, um, as, as I started to deconstruct, it really became like, that was the most difficult part was being like leading worship at church and trying to like conjure up. Um, sincerity, a sense, like, you, you, it’s, you can usher people into an experience, but I myself was not having it. So, but I, in order, in order to not be a distraction and to inspire people who could make that type of, uh, connection during music, I would simulate it from stage. And that made me feel like a complete fake. Yeah, you should feel bad about that. And I, I mean, I was, I mean I wasn’t like going over the top, it was just like closing my eyes, or if I, I would say things to introduce songs to help people focus their attention on what, what the song was about, or where it could take you emotionally, and um, I would alter my tone of voice so that it wouldn’t be a distraction but be a help. Be a little softer. Be a little softer. Um. Most of my prayer became public because it was a part of the job. The only time you prayed was in public? Um, yeah. Jesus says not to do that. Well, it was part of the job. And then it became the type of thing that like, uh, I could not take it anymore. I couldn’t do that anymore. I just couldn’t live on myself. And I started talking to people about how I might step down. Maybe one friend or two friends, but not anybody who was like in like church administration. But then we moved and you didn’t have to worry about it. And I didn’t have to worry about it. And it was such a relief to not have to go through that, uh, painful, like stepping down and then being around and like, what’s wrong with you? Or maybe going to another church or something like that. So Even though you may, so one may expect that that would be the one place where I could just have this special moment with God. I wasn’t, I never really got there and I was, I was a bit jealous of those that, uh, that it worked that way. I think. That it was just, it was a makeup and a personality type in the same way. The reason why I don’t cry at things in movies is because there’s a bit of a disconnect for me. I think it also translates to the type of music that you like too, though, because like, when you like listening to hip hop, I did not listen to praise music in the car or like otherwise, like I didn’t listen to Christian music because I had, because my taste was such that I thought it wasn’t good. I didn’t really listen to praise and worship music either outside of church, but like I think one of the reasons that I because music has always like been very emotional for me I think it’s one of the reasons I like i’m much more likely to listen to something melancholy Musically and like I like like when you like or like you got to listen to dochi and you like show me to her tiny Desk i’m like, holy shit. This is awesome Yeah, but I don’t find myself thinking like i’m like when am I gonna like when am I gonna listen to it? Like, I don’t ever find myself thinking, I want to feel right now the way that that music makes me feel. Like, oh, somebody’s playing. I’m like, holy shit, that’s great. But it’s a, uh, I’m much more like, let me listen to Jason Isbell talk about, you know, life in a small town and like, confused feelings about his dad or something like, you know. So, so the, so the emotional side. And it does move you emotionally, you know, in a similar way that it did when you were in a praise set. So I think that the music was such a huge part for me and such a huge part for so many people, right? Um, I mean, people make decisions about what church they go to now because of the praise and worship band. And now let me just say, Some songs are better than others at doing this. I mean, Hop on the bus! God’s on the move! Like, that’s not a good one. Like, we sh that was a mistake for us culturally. That’s it was camp. Um, and there were others like that. But, then like, passion happened. I does passion still happen? I don’t know, Rhett. So passion Chris Tomlin of it all. Was a, uh This gathering of students and they had the best praise and worship and we all wanted Campus Crusade was like, we were like the cheap imitation of passion, but we thought we had the theology on point. So we were like better anyway, you know, but we were like, man, they’ve got such a good musicians are so cool and the music is so like, legit and everyone’s talented and like it’s so emotional and I think that um it’s such a huge part of it especially for young people man it’s so good and then if they were Australian and oh my goodness here’s the thing I can still be deeply moved by the right praise and worship song. It’s so easy because, I mean, it’s just chords and words. I will say that, uh, hymns, too, you know. I think about, like, uh, was it Be Thou My Vision was sung in our wedding acapella? I think there’s a few different things sung in our wedding. And, man, I still, well, it’s funny, I, cause, I don’t know if you’ve seen this in the, in one of the, Yeah, the scripts. Yeah, but like in one of the And one of the episodes of Wonderhole season two. Oh, yeah, I rewrote an old hymn to fit the situation Yeah, and like I was like listening to These hymns and like the right people sing it man. It’ll it just takes you someplace. It’s transcendent For you. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, and I would say and I and like I it’s easy to tap into that No, I don’t I did watch I sent you and Christy and Jesse that tick tock of I think, he’s probably a Christian, I don’t know. It was a TikToker who was doing a compilation of 90s praise and worship. Yeah. And medley. A medley, and he would just go from one to the other, and he’s like killin it. It got a little cheesy. It was nostalgic. But like, I’m like, damn, we sang so many songs, and it was such a huge part of that whole thing. To me, it’s not To Jesse, again, this is where I think it’s about my experience. To Jesse, triggering. Mm hmm. To me, It takes me back to this place where I was the emcee, I was saying the funny things up front, I was introducing the speaker, I was thinking about, I was launching a career in comedy. It takes me back to being a complete Right, so to me, it’s all good memories, because I got really lucky, and so, and then I’m kind of like, man, you can’t really, you know, there’s been like, atheist churches, where they like, sing like, imagine by John Lennon. John Lennon. And it’s like, man, that ain’t gonna work. That ain’t gonna work. You ain’t gonna do nothing with that. You know what I’m saying? Like, it might be fun for a little bit, but it’s not gonna last. Oh, no, but I think they can have the same experience. They can have, well, there’s a, I saw somebody talk about how, I think that Christians, uh, who are really into praise and worship music. and think that they can’t get this outside of church, just don’t go to concerts. And I’m like, okay, yeah, I can see that. Like you go to a concert for something you’re really, really into and like, it can get deeply emotional. People write, people write deep, emotional, introspective songs outside of the church. I completely agree with that, but there’s something about everybody being gathered together and all believing the same dogma that creates A connection that is really hard to replicate. It’s like you believe you believe this thing that people don’t other people don’t believe Yeah, but we believe it Let’s sing about it. Ooh, right. That’s powerful, man. That’s powerful. Let’s do another one. Hey, Rhett and Link. My name is Alex. I’m from the Pacific Northwest, a longtime listener and viewer, a longtime mythical beast, and your guys deconstruction podcast series really resonated with me as an ex Christian who was kind of struggling with that. And I have a question specifically for you, Rhett. Uh, you described yourself at that time as a hopeful agnostic. I had never heard. that terminology before, and I loved it, and I kind of decided to use it myself. And I, I’m wondering, Rhett, if you still stand by that, if you still call yourself a hopeful agnostic, are you still hopeful? And what are your thoughts? How are you feeling? How would you describe yourself now, so many years later? Um, anyway, thanks guys, love you both, and yeah. Thank you for the question. Yeah, I still consider myself that. A lot of people, man, everybody has a tendency to get really, like, get their panties in a wad about stuff. And the atheist community, they get, they’re like, anytime you start talking about being an agnostic, they’re like, guess what, are you an agnostic atheist? Like, they’re two different things. Because, you know, atheism and theism is about what you believe, and agnosticism is about what you know, I think that’s the delineation. I’m like, guys, come on, come on, let’s not reintroduce these fundamental concepts. It’s like, from a colloquial sense, agnostic is just basically saying, I don’t know, I haven’t come down on a side of the fence. Um. As Alex O’Connor, who is an atheist, he talks about, I can’t remember what issue he was talking about, but he was like, I will die on this fence. You know, it’s just like. I want to stay on this fence. I have a, I, I fully believe that I’ll probably die on this fence of not knowing, but when I say hopeful, what, what, what I’m saying is that, yeah, I kind of hope there’s something beyond what I can experience with my physical senses. Like it kind of makes sense to me, right? It kind of makes sense to me, but the two choices that I am given of it being It just is because it is and that’s the way that it is and it’s all natural or no, it is the creation of an all knowing, all loving, all good being. Those are your choices. I don’t think those are the only choices. I think that’s very limited. That’s a very limited way to think about it, right? It’s like, why do those have to be the two choices? There are lots of other ways to think about this. You know, I was kind of just BS ing when I talked about this on Good Mythical More one time, but when I talked about how the thing that makes the most sense to me is that, um, the whole universe is God, and God gave birth to itself, and split itself apart, and its goal is to bring itself back together. And that’s why every time we connect with one another or we connect with nature, we are bringing God back together to itself. I don’t know if that’s true, but it’s a beautiful thing. It’s a beautiful thing to think. But it would, but what would it, but what would it explain? It’s also weird. It, well, it’s, it’s weird. Is it any weirder than the other two alternatives? No. Let’s be real. Oh. Because what would it explain? It would explain that there To the average person, there seems to be some intention. There seems to be this like intention to existence and what’s going on. But there also seems to be some chaos and some hands off the wheelness at the same time, right? There seems to be a lot of randomness. It seems like this is a really weird way to go about. creating something, but also the fact that there’s anything at all that has the ability to contemplate its own existence is pretty freaking cool at the same time. Yeah. And I just, so we’re little pieces of an exploded God. Well, I don’t believe that. I’m just saying that. That fear? I do. Now I do. Here’s the thing is that if the right person and the right government had adopted that idea, that’s what you’d probably believe. Do you know what I’m saying? Yeah. I think I might, and I, I, I’m just making the point that when I say that I’m agnostic is I’m saying, I don’t know, and I, I’m also saying I’m okay with that. I’m open to. I’m open to knowing, but I find it a little bit interesting that we’ve been around for a long time and there’s been billions of us for hundreds of thousands of years, and nobody’s figured it out yet. That’s why I’m not looking, honestly. Nobody’s figured it out yet, so. I’m just like, if you really, if you really find it, uh, I guess I’ll hear about it. So if there is a God. If there is a God. I’ll be over here listening to Dochi. I don’t know the nature of that God But I’ll say one thing it does not seem to me that that God is particularly Interested in me having a full understanding Of exactly how I’m supposed to respond. Yeah, and like of course, I know I got the old red on my shoulder I know it’s like well, that’s why God sent Jesus and that’s why I got into the Bible and it’s just like yeah You believe that I don’t. I’ve been there, okay? I’ve been in it, and I came out of it. You believe it, that’s great. Like I said, I’m not trying to talk you out of it. I’m talking about me. I don’t believe it, and I’m just as happy. Life is beautiful, life is mysterious, and I am hopeful. I, I, I’m hopeful. It’s a little bit hard to be hopeful so far in 2025 as an American, but I’m hopeful. I still am generally hopeful. This is good. This is a good place to end it. You know, I am hopeful, um, that it’s really, really helpful. Do you remember what it was like? Do you remember what it was like to believe that God was in control and that he had everything figured out? I, I, let me, little sidebar soapbox. I can’t help myself. Uh, we’re gone so long at this point, no one’s listening. So I’ll just say what I want to say. Okay. Um, one of the things that has been so perplexing to me with the way that Christian nationalism has taken such a prominent role in what’s happening in our country right now. And Christians caring so much about our government and politics and what in policy and all this stuff. When I was a Christian, I was a conservative Christian theologically and I was a conservative person politically. I was a Republican. Okay, I voted for Bush. You know what I’m saying? And. But I remember at the same time that there would sometimes be these Christians who would get really up in arms about how you got to vote for the right person and we got to do this and we got to do that. And I remember thinking, Ah, this isn’t consistent with what y’all been teaching me. This isn’t consistent with what I’ve been reading in the Bible. This isn’t consistent with what I see Jesus saying. Because what I see Jesus saying is that you know, the kingdoms of the world, they come and go. That’s not really our prerogative or our interest. Pay to Caesar what is Caesar’s. Yeah, be a good tax paying person, law abiding citizen. But we’re about the kingdom of God. We’re not about the kingdom, we’re about the kingdom of heaven. We’re not about the kingdom of these earthly kingdoms, right? And anytime anybody got too excited about politics and too excited about like this policy or this law, I would be like, yeah, but isn’t that that’s not that’s all earth stuff. That’s all people’s stuff And so now that I’m completely out of that system, because of course in the reason that I was okay with it is I was like, yeah, because God’s got a plan God’s Gonna do something like you think that whose president is gonna change God’s plan like God’s gonna do all this stuff, He’s gonna make it alright in the end. It’s like we can’t screw the earth up too much, you think God’s gonna let global warming be a real big problem when he’s just gonna like, burn it all up at the end and replace it with a new earth like he’s got it under control and he’s my god Everything’s cool. Don’t get too upset or worked up about anything that’s happening on Earth. That’s how I thought. That was such a easy thing to believe. It was fun to believe, honestly, because I never got too worked up about anything, and I’m just so perplexed and surprised at how many Christians feel like the only way to bring about God’s will is to make sure that we’re doing all the right things politically or the government is doing this or the government isn’t doing this or we get this right, you know, Oh God, I’m so glad we got Trump in because if Biden had, if Kamala had a one, who knows what would have happened? You think God wouldn’t have been able to fix? Like, I don’t understand the mentality. It seems super…. Incongruous with the way that Jesus talked about things. That’s just a little sidebar that I don’t understand. Um, and it makes it different when you don’t believe that anymore. Like, I don’t believe that there is an all loving, all knowing God who’s got everything in control. Like, I think that It’s scarier. I think the buck stops with us. I think we got to figure this [bleep] out. We got billions of people on this planet, and it seems like the only thing we want to do is prove who’s right and who’s wrong, tell people what they can do and what they can’t do, and essentially just artfully destroy ourselves seems to be the thing that we’re best at. And so, I’m just like, hold on, we gotta actually figure out how to work together. Like, we gotta figure out how to solve the problems because I don’t think that the big man upstairs is gonna come down and do it for us. Mm hmm. And so I don’t know. You were gonna end on like a, a positive hopeful note and then you did this. Yeah, I just couldn’t help myself because I’m, because it’s so, I’m confused by it. Okay, okay. I haven’t heard, no one has explained it to me in a way that makes sense to me. It’s like, hey man, if you’re like, if you’re like a Christian, you believe in God’s sovereignty, like you should chill out, like you’ve got it good. You’re gonna be okay. It’s the rest of us that gotta worry about something. Right? Anyway, this has been fun. Yeah. Yeah. I’m kinda hungry, and my neck hurts from looking this way so long. But, other than that, thanks for listening. Thanks for your voicemails. Um. Are we gonna do this next week? No. No, we’re not. No, we’re done with this subject. I mean, are we gonna do the podcast? Yeah, we’re gonna do the podcast. Exactly. It’ll be different. It will be. So, we’ll talk at you next week. But it’ll be kind of the same. It’ll still be us. Hi, this is Olivia. I know I have been listening to you all since 2014, just when I started college. Um, we were just wrapping up memories of the last year in 2024. My husband and I got married last year. Um, and I just wanted to call and thank you all in small ways. We’ve had an influence on us. Um, we eloped last year at Glen Oak’s Big Sur and we chose that area because of just hearing you talk about it on the podcast and how special Glen Oak’s was. So, thanks for having that recommendation and that influence on our lives. We appreciate you. Bye.