The world falls apart, not because bad people did things, but because good people did nothing. Yeah. It’s just hard to see what you can do sometimes. Like, it’s like, what is the, as a 23 year old living in California, what can I realistically do? ♪ Ba ba ba ba ba ba ♪ ♪ Oh ♪ ♪ Ba ba ba ba ba ba ♪ ♪ Oh ♪ Welcome, everyone, to “Trevor Talks Too Much;” the show where I put my gift of gab to the test, and no topic is off limits. I’m your host, Trevor Evarts, master baker, Mythical’s soft boy, and firm believer that “A Space Age Love Song” by Flock of Seagulls, is the greatest song of all time to roller skate to. Ooh! Listen to that song, and tell me that that isn’t just the greatest song to put on a pair of skates, and just glide around a roller rink. I dare you. Today, I spoke with Joel Stein, who is really cool and funny, and he didn’t specifically request me to say this, very handsome. He’s a handsome man. But he’s a bestselling author. He’s a former writer, columnist for “Time” magazine. He’s written in so many huge publications all over the US. He’s just a really smart, funny guy. And we had a great time. We talked about all sorts of stuff. We talked about masculinity, ’cause he wrote a book on it. We talked about the differences between the generations, as he’s a Gen X and I’m a Gen Z, and that was fun to get into. One thing we did talk about, but I don’t think, it was before we started recording, we talked about Dungeons and Dragons. Yeah. And I’m so sad that I didn’t get to talk about it on the show. ‘Cause I wanted to see the look on his face when I told him that my go-to Dungeons and Dragons character that I’ve used for so long, is a bard named Surreal Neil Diamond. Oh, Surreal Neil, okay? my God, forever. Jamie, Jamie, I’m gonna explain the mechanics of Dungeons and Dragons to you here, briefly. So, there are things- How do you know I don’t already know? There, you don’t. I don’t. There are things in Dungeons you use so you can cast spells, obviously, but there are different levels of spells. And with higher-level spells, there’s a thing called spell slots. So, you can only cast a certain number of spells before you take a rest, that resets your spell slots. Because if you could just cast certain spells over and over, you’d be overpowered. So, it’s like, you know, Yeah. when you’re going on your adventures, you’ve only got these certain spells that you can cast a certain number of times. And the different levels have a different number of spell slots. But there are spells called cantrips. Cantrips are spells that you can cast as many times as you want, all the time, but they’re usually weaker spells. But for bards, there’s a cantrip called vicious mockery. Vicious mockery is my favorite spell in all of Dungeons and Dragons, ’cause the whole idea of the spell is that you’re just slinging insults at someone, and it, and you’re slinging these insults, and it makes them take damage, and then also puts them at disadvantage. So, when I’m playing Dungeons and Dragons, and I am piloting Surreal Neil Diamond, the bard, I love it, because every time we get into combat, I just get to drop the gnarliest roasts on whoever we’re fighting, and they just get so mad that they take damage, and then they’re at disadvantage. And it’s just funny, because, you know, when you’re role playing, I actually have to come up with insults. So, then I could just be fighting like a goblin, and then I just have to drop some, some gnarly insult. Like, your mother is a . That wasn’t- That’s gnarly. That was gnarly. I couldn’t, I, here’s the thing. I’m not in character right now, as Surreal Neil Diamond. If I was, I would’ve come up with a better insult. Yeah, you have to be in character. But that was the best that I could come up with as Trevor Everts. But yeah, I- I feel like like Joel would like that spell. That’s why I wanted to talk to him about it. ‘Cause apparently he played D and D, like, back in the ’80s, and I wanted to get into it. I wanted to see what kind of character. ‘Cause I believe you can tell a lot about a person based on what kind of character they play in Dungeons and dragons. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if he was also a bard enjoyer. ‘Cause here’s the thing, people that play bards in Dungeons and Dragons are the coolest. Okay. That- And are you saying that just because you also do that? No, I’m saying that because it’s a bonafide fact, that people that play bards are the coolest, they’ve got the most swag, and they, everyone loves them. What do you think I would play as? You seem kind of like a ranger. I feel like you maybe run ranger, maybe like a, you could be like a good cleric. Okay. Yeah. You’re a very supportive person. Yes. Oh, thank you. Clerics generally, like, they’re very good at supporting their party with spells that heal them, and give them advantages, and boost their damage, stuff like that. Ranger, because, I don’t know, you just also seem like you’re very, I feel like you have a good moral compass. Rangers generally are like, you know, people with good moral compasses, and they do a lot of good, and they’re pretty bad . They’re pretty kick . Ah, cool. I’ve always wanted to play, just never had like a group, Yeah. that I could. Well, here’s the thing. What you gotta do, is you gotta find more friends that are losers. And then the likelihood that they play Dungeons and Dragons becomes increasingly higher. ‘Cause all my friends are nerds and gamers, and I don’t think you have enough nerdy gamer friends. No, no I don’t. Yeah, ’cause I’m probably your only real nerdy gamer friend. I mean, my brother’s my friend, and he’s like a nerdy gamer, but in a different way than you, I think. Can you please stop talking about video games for two seconds, so we can get into the show? I swear, it’s like every day, we come in here, and we’re trying to get into the show, and then Jamie’s just rambling on and on about video games, and gamer things. And it’s crazy how much I just have to keep her in line, so that we can actually get to the main portion of the show. Never get to have any fun here. Just kidding. We should get into Joel though. Today, on the show, I have Joel Stein, who is very, very, what was I? There was a word in my head that I was gonna say. Handsome. Handsome was the word. Yeah. Yeah, that was the one. Usually three verys, but I’ll take two. Yeah. No, Joel is an author. You’ve done columns for “Time” magazine. You’ve written just about everywhere, I think, at some point. No one listening to this is gonna know what “Time” magazine is. No, they know. Really? Yeah, I think so. Alright. Yeah. I think it’s, I think it’s well known enough, that people know. Yeah, people remember the past, right? Like, if I said, “Life” magazine, or- Yeah. Yeah. Or- I think people have seen enough TV shows. Right. No, it’s, “Time” is a very, it’s all the Man of the Year thing, Person of the Year. Yeah, yeah. The Person of the Year cover is- Person of the Year, yeah. Is still a reference point. Definitely. Yeah. And you see it a lot in like, definitely like TV shows from like the early 2000s, where there would just be like a copy, like, laying on a table enough, that it’s referenced enough that people know what it is. But anyway. Yes. You’re a writer. Where, okay, so what, where have you written? ‘Cause you’ve written in lots of places. No, I was at “Time” magazine for like, not exclusively, but I was basically there for 20 years writing. Okay. Articles, plus this first-person column. Yeah. Humor column. I had a gig writing a column for the “Los Angeles Times” for a few years. There was like a year where I wrote the back page of “Entertainment Weekly.” Okay. These were all periods when “Time” magazine got rid of my column, and I had to find somewhere else to run them. Yeah. I started out of “Time” out in New York. But I’ve written for anyone who will pay me. Yeah. Like, yeah. That’s good. That’s a, I think that’s a sensible way to make money, and also do something that you enjoy. Yeah, I mean, I haven’t found a better way. Yeah. So, Joel and I met because you tweeted something about asking if there was anyone that could help you out with what the word simping means, and to explain to you what simping is. And then my boss, Josh, who you’ve said you’re a fan of- Oh, he’s the one who suggested you- He replied to your tweet, and like, tagged me in it, yeah. Oh, I didn’t see that. That’s interesting. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, he replied to your tweet and tagged me, and was like, “Trevor’s your guy.” So, then I replied, ’cause I don’t know, when I first saw the tweet, I was like, “Yeah, I’ll reply.” But I didn’t actually think that you were gonna ask me, what did I… And then later that day I was on a call with you, and we talked for like 30 minutes about what simping means. Yeah. Which was lovely, lovely. And then after the 30 minutes, I was like, “I wanna have you on my show.” Oh, you’re very, ‘Cause it sounds like, very sweet. it’d be great. So, that’s how we met. And now you’re here, in front of a microphone, in person. Who’s gonna simp who, whom? Well, Yeah. I don’t know. Yeah, we’ll find out. That’s to be determined, Yeah. I think. It was, it was one of my better pieces, yeah. Did you paint me in a good light, or did I look like a buffoon? Oh wow, so I never answer that question for people. Because what I’ve learned, even since I wrote articles in college, is I’d write something that I thought was really kinda harsh or picking on someone, Yeah. and they’d love it. And then I’d write something that was really positive about someone. I once wrote a piece about, like, Zach Braff, when that, what was that movie about New Jersey? “Garden State,” came out. Yeah. And I loved that movie. I’m from New Jersey. I had a great time with him. I wrote a really positive profile. But I had like one line about him, I don’t know, being a cocky bastard or something. And he got so furious. No? Yeah, so I just never know if people like whatever. I just can’t predict. Really? I would be pretty happy if you called me a cocky bastard. I did not call you a cocky bastard in the piece. Probably called me a… Like, I talked to this dumb idiot kid, That is correct. about this dumb idiot word, Yes. that shouldn’t exist, and is really stupid. And here’s what he told me. No, the whole piece was, how Web3, crypto familiar are you? Not. Okay. So, you don’t know what DAOs are? Okay. I’ve heard the term. Okay. Don’t know what it means though. So, a DAO is a, basically a way to create like, a corporation where there’s no one in charge, and everyone can just vote, and buy share. You know, you basically buy shares and all that. So, this woman, Irene Zhao created IreneDAO for people to simp her, but they could own the simping. Oh. So, I talked to Irene, Interesting. and I bought, and you have, so, in order to do this, you have to buy into the DAO. But you do that by buying an NFT of Irene Zhao. Okay. So, I had to like buy this NFT, and now I can vote on what the DAO does. But anyway, it’s all about simping, and it was all insane. And that’s what I was calling you about. That just sounds like OnlyFans with extra steps. Yeah. Like- Yeah, with no nudity. Oh, well then, Yeah. what’s the point? Yeah. I think financial, somehow. Like, if you, so in other words, like, when I was a kid, there was still like “Tiger Beat” magazine. Yeah. So, if you could like make money by being a fan of Kirk Cameron, that’s what this concept is. Wait. That’s, I should do that. Yeah. I want people to invest in me, to show the, how big of a fan they are. Yes. That sounds great. And then they can buy and sell their fandom to others. Yeah. No, but I’d like them to buy it, give me money, and then I’d take all the money. Is that what’s a, what a rug pull is? No. That, the rug pull is when, rug pull’s much simpler. Rug pull’s when, I know so much about Web3 now. But rug pull is when you basically start a little project. Yeah. And then you promise something, and you run away with the money instead. Yeah, no, that’s what I wanna do. Yeah, yeah, no, that’s a plan. That’s what I wanna do. I wanna- That’s a classic plan. That’s basically like, Ben Affleck, “Boiler Room.” That’s like, Yeah. it’s always been a good plan. I want- That’s Ponzi. Yeah. Yeah. I would love to be like, at the start of a Ponzi scheme, I think. I think that’s what I don’t. I really missed out on, I’ve thought about this. with this whole crypto thing, and NFT thing. It’s like- 100% disagree. I think it’s the dumbest thing ever, but it would be kind of nice to just make a ton of money by just lying to people. No. Oh my God, I thought about it when Madoff happened. The stress of that seems, I mean, I guess if you’re like a Trumpian figure, and you like, live off of conflict, and that just fills you. Yeah. But that’s, I know from listening to you, and your struggles Oh, no, with anxiety I would never and depression. do that. No, it just sounds like the most stressful, horrifying. I wouldn’t want a day of that. Joel just said, “You seem way too depressed to take advantage of people.” I mean, I listened to your episode on depression. Really? So, that episode seemed so Gen Z to me. Yeah? Which was, not because, so, Gen Z seems so nice, and careful, and kind, and I love that. And really open and interested in mental health. Yeah. And demands that from their workplace, that they acknowledge that. And that’s wonderful. The 10% that I’m not as down with was the caution with which you talked about it. Yeah. It was, it was not just that you were, the fact that you are addressing this and acknowledging it, I thought was, and kind about it. Like, every time you said something, you were like, “I know this might affect these people, or.” Yeah. That was wonderful. But when you actually talked about what you were going through, it was so cautious. It was like Gen X was so blunt, and aggressive with, you know, with that stuff. I think that caution comes from like, inside myself though. I think it was just something that I hadn’t talked about openly before, even in my own personal circles. Like, I’m really bad about talking about how I feel, to like, even my friends. And so for me to get up here in front of a mic, and then blast this on the internet to whoever wanted to hear, I think for me, that was like a very weird thing to do, and a very difficult thing to do. So, I don’t think it was caution, out of like, I’m worried that someone is gonna take it the wrong way, but more of like me feeling like, I don’t even know how to say these things, ’cause I don’t talk about these things. No, that’s what it felt like. But, so you’re saying maybe like by the time you got to write your “Prozac Nation” you’d have talked about this enough times where you could talk more openly and bluntly about some of the stuff? Yeah, I think so. I think it would take more therapy. Yeah. Which I’m working on. Did you go to therapy? Yeah, yeah. How was it? It was great. It was, yeah, it was, she was very, she was older. She was very experienced, it seemed, like she knew what she was doing. It was nice because she, like, definitely made me feel very comfortable. And like, when I was talking, she just let me talk. And then I would get to a point, where like, I didn’t know what to say, and she would prompt me with questions. Because I didn’t know. I’d never been to, or I hadn’t been to therapy since I was like a junior in high school, and I didn’t wanna go. That wasn’t like a willing thing. So, when I was at therapy in high school, I kind of just didn’t say anything. But I was like, “I don’t know what to say. I don’t know if this is gonna be like a question and answer thing, if she’s gonna wanna ask me questions.” But she was really great and seemed very knowledgeable. And she gave me some, like, actionable things to do throughout the next week. So, I have another appointment next week, and she like, gave me, “Here’s the things that I want you to do.” I’ve got some therapy homework. But yeah, and then there were some things like, ’cause I talked about how I have a very negative self image. And she was like, it makes sense that like, because the way that brains work, and you, once you do something for a long enough time, your brain does it automatically, like, the neurons fire. It’s like when you have a job for a long time, like, when I was working at a bakery in LA- Was it Dominique Ansel or? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I was making croissants every day, and I would make hundreds of croissants. And it got to the point where I’d done it so many times that my brain just turned off. Like, I would just sit there, and I would listen to music, or a podcast, or whatever, an audio book, and like my hands were making croissants, but I wasn’t focused on what I was doing. Like, I’d just done it so often, that it became this thing. And our brains do the same thing with the way that we think about ourselves. So, when I’ve spent so much of my life having a negative self image, my brain is automatically gonna do that whenever it can. And apparently, to break that, you have to actively do something that you’re not comfortable with, or don’t know how to do, so that you’re forcing your brain to be focused on, instead of like, being in that like, kind of zone where you’re not, you don’t have to think about what you’re doing, you’re forcing your brain to think about what it’s doing in order to break those, like, those neural transmitters for just- Like, so what, what do you have to do? Like, jump out of a plane or something, or what? No, she said, “Is there any like, hobby that you wanna pick up?” Oh. “Like, or something that you’ve wanted to do, that you’re not familiar with?” So, I got back into playing guitar. I was gonna say, it has to be an instrument, right? Yeah. ‘Cause that takes full concentration. Yeah, and I played, I used to play the mandolin in high school. Oh man, you, between that and the Dungeon and Dragons, Yeah. you must have been Pretty big raking it in loser. with the chicks. Oh-ho-ho! You better believe I was. Wow. Thank God you learned to bake. It was your only way out. I, you know, I wonder why they thought I was gay in high school. Oh yeah. I wonder why. Who knows? It was funny, ’cause in high school, everyone, like, people would spread rumors about me being gay, but then they’d also spread rumors about all of the girls that I was hooking up with. Oh, interesting. They couldn’t pick one. Like, I would hear people talk about, like, “Oh, did you do this with this girl?” And then I’d be like, “No.” And then also I’d hear rumors about me being gay. And I was like, “I don’t get it. Can you just pick one?” Well, you’re a, you know what, that makes sense to me. You’re a, you’re a- You’re a handsome man. Oh, thank you. But in that, you’re not a ruggedly handsome man. You are like No. in that Leonardo DiCaprio way, where it’s like girls really like that. Yeah. Because, especially girls, I use that instead of women, but women like it too. But girls at that age are, it’s kind of like a pretty nonthreatening Yeah. handsomeness. Yeah, like I belong in a boy band. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. No, you could totally I would listen be in a boy band. to that band. You’d be playing your mandolin. I wish I was in a boy band. Oh my God. You’d be covering whatever Zeppelin songs are about Gollum, and the evil one, yeah. Being in high school when One Direction was at its peak, was like, so hard for me, because I was like, “I could do that. I could be in a boy band.” Right. That would be the greatest gig ever. Oh my God. Having someone else write the most generic songs, like, generic love songs ever, and all you have to do is like, get up on stage, and dance, and sing, and make millions and millions of dollars. Can you dance? No. Okay. Okay, no, I used to be pretty good at swing dancing. You used to, you did swing dancing? Oh, hey! Yeah, I actually used to do swing dancing in high school. I completely forgot about that. But when you grow up in Idaho, and you go to a small private Christian school, you you gotta find ways Oh my. to have fun. What flavor of Christian? Non, it was a non-denominational. Oh, okay. Yeah, it wasn’t like a, wasn’t like Presbyterian. Is that a denomination? That’s one. That wouldn’t be the one in Idaho probably, yeah. Joel, you wrote this book that I have here. I wrote that a while ago. “Man Made.” Like, 10 years ago? Yeah, ’cause how old is your son now? He had his bar mitzvah a couple weekends ago. Nine, wait, what age is the bar mitzvah? 13. That didn’t come up 13, okay. in the Idaho Christian school all the time? No. Okay. I knew it was around that age. I- Now you know. I didn’t have a bar mitzvah. So, where did you come up with the name, Laszlo? We, my wife and I, had settled on Levi. Okay. I’d written a column about how to name your son. So, there are professional, like, consultants you can hire. Oh, okay. So they did, they taught me some useful stuff. It was basically about, I’m gonna screw this up, with dactyls, like all that, all that Shakespearean thing. Yeah. Basically you want like, some kind of iambic. Yeah. I’m using all the wrong terms. But you want stressed, unstressed, stressed, unstressed. Yeah. So, like, my name sucks. Like, Joel Stein is like, it’s just an attack. Attack on Christianity. Yeah. And then… They need it. So, we knew we wanted like, we were stuck with Stein, so we wanted like a two-syllable stressed unstressed. Okay. So, we were set on Levi. And then we were watching a movie, “Breathless,” and there’s a part of “Breathless” where he signs in, is that the name of the movie? Where he signs into a hotel, and he uses the name Laszlo Kovacs, which is actually the name of the cinematographer on the movie. Okay. And my wife was like “Laszlo!” And she’s like, “Too many people are gonna be named Levi.” Yeah. So, then we went with Laszlo. We were wrong with Levi. I love, I love the name Laszlo. Because have you seen, “What We Do in the Shadows?” Well, yes, ’cause Laszlo’s, my son’s a little pissed off about it, ’cause he- Laszlo Cravensworth? Yeah. The greatest. Yeah. One of the greatest characters in television? Yes. Yeah, he’s furious about this. Oh my God. I would kill to be named Laszlo Cravensworth. I mean, obviously your son’s name isn’t Laszlo Cravensworth. But when I first, when I was reading the book, and the name Laszlo, all I could think about was, “I’m in the mood for some sexual intercourse.” And just his whole character, That’s pretty good, yeah. his whole character is just, Yeah, yeah. Matt, I love Matt Berry. I think he’s one of the funniest people ever. I let people vote online on four names, before, you know, when my wife was pregnant. Yeah. I did a “Time” magazine poll, and Laszlo came in dead last. But she went for it anyway. I love it. I think it’s great. I, if only because I love “What We Do in the Shadows.” Yep, yeah. So, if you had another son, would you name him Nandor the Relentless? Like, is this the kind of son I have like, on the sly with a different woman, and I don’t tell anyone about? Or is this just like with my wife? With your wife. No, I would not. On the sly? For sure. Okay, good. I’ll take it. No, I, so I’ve been reading this book. I started reading it, I don’t know, probably earlier this week. Very nice of you. But I love it, because you have put into words like, everything that I’ve felt in my life about not being like the stereotypical manly man. And I think it’s great. So, this book, for everyone out there, that I’m holding up, and if you’re listening to the audio version, you can’t see it, but it’s called “Man Made.” And essentially, the reason you wrote it, is because you found out you were gonna have a baby boy. And you had this like existential crisis about the fact that you weren’t manly enough to raise a son. Yeah, no, for sure. I, and my wife comes from hardier stock than me, so the odds were, although my dad’s pretty masculine in a lot of ways. Yeah, I just figured I couldn’t handle raising a boy, and I kind of freaked out. And, you know, I didn’t have the vocabulary that like, the trans movement has given me, Yeah. about gender. Yeah. So, like, I had a vague, ’cause like, honestly, before the trans movement, there was, it was very hard to separate gender from sexuality. Yeah. So, like the, like, even when you were talking about being in high school, and people thought you were gay, like, there was no way to like, talk about a gender spectrum versus like, a sexuality spectrum. Yeah. ‘Cause I didn’t feel particularly gay at all, but I didn’t feel nearly as manly as I, as other guys. Yeah, no, I mean, my dad was like, see, here’s the thing about my dad, he’s like this weird hybrid, because my dad owns a cigar lounge. They’re all weird hybrids. Every man you meet in that book, is not the manly man. Yeah. They like, they all have hybrid nature. No, I literally- I’m sorry, but your dad owned a cigar store? But yeah, he like owns a cigar lounge. He’s like a huge, like, scotch guy, like, has an unreal scotch collection. But he’s also like, totally not a manly man. Like, he plays poker, but he hates, he used to hunt and camp a little bit when he was younger, but now he’s like, he refuses to go. Like, he would not sleep in a tent. He does not want to go do anything like that. He’s very pampered. And he loves like, you know, all of his extremities and amenities and stuff. So, like growing up, he never- His arms and legs, or what is he? Like, all of his like, things that, the things around him that make his life easier, you know? Yeah, yeah. But yeah. And so like when I was growing up, he didn’t force me to do anything I didn’t want to do. He didn’t like, he wasn’t like, “You have to play sports, you gotta play basketball.” That’s great. “You gotta do stuff like that.” And growing up, he was never like, you know, he didn’t raise me to be like, you have to be like a man, you know? He was never like that. And so I grew up not doing that, and not really caring. And I’ve never been insecure in my masculinity, which is probably why a lot of people in high school thought I was gay. But it was so fun to read this book, and just like see you go around to all these people who you assumed were like, these are the manliest men that I can find, and I wanna spend a day with them. And there was a part that I bookmarked, not well, it was like just a sticker, I think, that I bookmarked it with. That’s the manliest way to bookmark a book. Was it a puffy or like a scratch and sniff, or? Do you wanna see the sticker that I bookmarked it with? I do. I don’t even understand that sticker. I don’t either. We buy a lot of weird on eBay. Who’s the we? Like, our department. Okay. Like, the culinary department, we buy a lot of stuff on eBay. Sure, that seems like an important part of the job. And sometimes, it’s like candy that you can’t find in grocery stores, stuff like that. Oh, okay. And then eBay sellers will sometimes like, give us extra gifts. Oh! ‘Cause they’re like, “Thank you for buying from us.” And so one of them was just a ton of stickers. So, that’s one of the stickers. Wow. Proud to have that in my book. This might not even be the right bookmark. No, it’s not. Hold on, I’m gonna find it. Here’s the thing, there’s not a bad page. No, there’s not. So, it doesn’t matter. I haven’t read a bad page yet. And it’s so funny. I, like, it’s, I don’t know that I’ve ever like read a book, and like, genuinely laughed out loud while I was reading it. Aw. You’re an amazing author. Wow, thank you. I really enjoyed reading it. I’m glad I came. Did it happen? What? Were you soft resetting? It did. Sorry, my brain shuts off every once in a while. Wait, what? I just like, We call it a soft reset. I’ll start talking about something, and then I just like lose the words, and it takes me a few seconds to get back. But are you thinking about something else, or what happens in those times? I don’t know. But like, are you just like, are you, are you desperately searching for a word? Or are you thinking about something entirely different, or just not thinking? No, I just like blacked out for a few seconds. What do you mean, blacked out? Like, my brain just turned off. But what does that feel? What does it look like in your eyes? Or what does it feel like in your head? I don’t know. I just kinda like zoned out. I’m not like, looking at anything specific. It was kind of just a, I see everything, and then like there’s no thoughts. Interesting. Yeah. It presents like narcolepsy. Sure. So, you just like… I think it’s like, I’m trying to do it. if I lose a thought in my head sometimes. Ah. Like, I’ll be trying to say something, and then I’ll lose the thought in my head. And then like, my brain doesn’t know how to catch up, so it just kind of stops for a few seconds. And then how does it reboot, or what happens? Usually Jamie says something and then- But, how long would you have gone if no one said anything? Another few seconds maybe. Okay, and then what, and then you pop back in, and for you, time has not gone on? No, time’s gone on. I mean, are we here right now? This is fascinating. You care about my brain farts? I don’t know, I don’t know. I feel like there’s a lot of things wrong with my brain. No, no, I didn’t mean it like that. It was just interesting. I didn’t, it wasn’t… No, but I think there are lots of things wrong with my brain. Do you really? Like? My, well, my psychologist said she thinks I might have bipolar II. Oh. That was what she thinks I might have. Do you have like truly manic episodes, where you don’t remember things you’ve done, and like? Well that’s the thing about bipolar II, is- Oh, a two? Yeah. That’s a sequel. Yeah, there’s actually four. There’s a whole cycle, I think, is what it’s called. Oh. And does one cycle through them, or one just has one? No, so bipolar I is, like you said, like, these very like manic episodes, and then you’ll have these kind of little depressive lows. But bipolar II’s the opposite, where you have like, some, like, slightly manic episodes, whatever, you’ll have these moments of kind of manic, but the depressive lows are these really big depressive lows. So, it’s just kind of the opposite. Oh, I had thought, and I don’t know much about this at all, I thought most people who are bipolar have occasional manic episodes, but often have much, much more of their life is spent in the depressive mode. Yeah, I don’t know too much about it. Okay, I don’t either. But I just started researching it, ’cause she said she thought I might have it. But yeah, basically what she said is, yeah, you’ll have like these kind of little, ’cause I think she kind of explained it, as like, you kind of go along in your life, in this straight line. And then people with bipolar I, will have these like, manic highs, like, these manic episodes. And then they’ll come down, and they’ll go into like a small depressive swing. And then like, there’s whatever period of like, normalcy goes on, and then it’ll happen again. Bipolar II, she said, is more like you’ll have like, a little bit of a manic episode, or kind of that feeling of mania, and then you’ll have these very big depressive swings that last longer. And when you were told this, was that scary, or relief, or how did, I mean, not that you’ve been diagnosed or anything, but just how did the potential of this diagnosis feel? No, I mean, it made sense, Okay. based on the fact that like, up until, probably like last Thursday, the month before last Thursday was probably like one of the worst months of my life. Yeah, you said that. from a mental health state. Yeah, I just felt like this giant hole that I was in, for like a month. So, and, but it, another thing she says, it doesn’t necessarily, usually, ’cause she said she thinks I don’t have major depressive disorder, because usually with major depressive disorder, you can kind of point to something that’s triggered an episode, or there’s something that happens that causes it. But with me, it’s like I could just wake up one day and be like, “This is the worst day of my life,” for no reason. Like, nothing happened. Everything’s fine. And then like I just wake up one day, and it’s like. And are you lucid enough to be frustrated by that? Or are you just, are in it, and you feel it, and there’s no? I’m, yeah, I think I’m lucid enough to be frustrated by it. It is annoying. I’ve definitely had that thought before. It’s like, I just wish I knew what was wrong so that I could fix it, and it wasn’t just happening for no reason. But I also do have like pretty severe memory loss, like, associated with those, like, depressive episodes. Like, I’m, have terrible memory when it comes to things that kind of happen in those low swings. There’s so many like, truly creative, brilliant people, who’ve had, I mean, you know this. Yeah, I mean Robin Williams is like one of my heroes. Robin Williams. Like, growing up, I loved Robin Williams. And apparently the nicest, everyone I know Yeah. who’s worked with him, just the nicest guy. Yeah. And just to think that someone that like, brought that much joy to people, could be going through that, like, who seemed and presented as like one of the funniest and happiest people ever, and then could be going through that, like, behind the scenes. It definitely, like, makes sense. Yeah. Not to compare myself to Robin Williams, but like, I get that. I think there, this is something I’ve been thinking about since I, you know, had the session, was like, I feel like I tend to channel the more manic energy into my job, and what I do. Sure. Like, when I go and I shoot a video with Josh, or do whatever, do this show, like, I tend to take the, all of the energy that I have, and the manic energy that comes with that, and I push it into work. Yeah, it’s an acceptable version. Because that makes me seem super happy and excited. Yeah. And then that leaves me in the moments, when I’m at home, or not at work, to just be in this like, hole, of just like, I feel like I have no energy, and I feel like just a husk, and there’s no emotions inside me. So, I could see for like, if that was what Robin William struggled with, or like, I could see how he would make these things, like, where he comes across as this very happy, and fun, and funny person, But manic. but manic. Clearly manic, yeah. And then to go when he’s not doing that in his personal life, to just be in just a hole, so. Oh, it’s funny. I’m sure you’re right. I had always thought of it as like the opposite, that when you’re in a manic state, you are, thanks to all the energy, you just wanna create stuff. Yeah. So, you’re either painting, or performing, or whatever it is. And then when you, it’s, I thought it was less of a choice to channel energy, and more just like, when you’re like this, you wanna do this, and when you’re not feeling that, you don’t do that. Yeah. That was because when she asked me to research it, I, I was like, “I don’t feel like I have manic episodes.” Like, when I was reading through like what it is, I was like, “I don’t feel like I really do that. I don’t have these spurts of like, super-high energy, and stuff like that.” And then I was like, “Actually, that’s probably not true. I think I just channel that in a different way.” And they’re maybe not as extreme as some of the cases you were reading, where people have several-day Yeah. manic episodes, where they like, you know? Yeah. Just don’t sleep, Just spend a ton of money, and sleep around. don’t sleep. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I like, I don’t feel like I have that, but I was gonna ask her about this next week, actually. I was gonna be like, “Do you think that I could be taking that kind of energy, and just funneling it into my job?” ‘Cause there’s definitely times when I’m doing a cooking video with Josh, that I feel like I’m going insane, where I’m just like, Wow. I feel like a psycho. Like, I just do. Like, you’re not in control? Like, I’m just doing crazy things, I’m super high energy, and I’m like losing my mind, like, whatever. So, yeah, definitely something I’m gonna talk to her about, but- Well, on one hand, like, congratulations for like, finding a great vehicle for that. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, most, I bet most people don’t. Yeah, no, I, it is nice to know that the energy that I have, what would be considered probably as a negative part, Right. of what’s going on in my head. Wouldn’t go well in the bakery. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no. It’s nice to have that outlet to make something, hopefully funny. I haven’t even read this piece of paper, Jamie. You’re fine, you don’t need to. You guys are fluidly talking. What’s the, that’s the goal? No, every guest I have on, Jamie will write like a large Google doc of like- Really? I’d like to read it. You wanna read it? Yeah, it’s probably like, “Don’t talk to him about his parents.” Alright, go ahead. Alright. See if there’s anything in there you wanna talk about. No, there’s just like, I try to like look for random things. No, you did a good job. You did a lot of prep. Don’t know what you- She does a lot of prep, and then like, depending on the guest, I’ll either go down point by point, trying to make conversation happen. Like, if someone is just not a good conversationalist, I’ll have to like constantly go through it. And then sometimes I’ll have someone on, and I just never look at it. I love your questions. You’re giving it back to me? Thank you. Thoughts on Gen Z as a Gen X. Well, you already did that. I feel like you already did that. I did read the article that you wrote for that gnarly mag. That article isn’t the one. So, I wrote a cover for “Time” magazine, called “The Me Me Me Generation.” Yeah, that was about Millennials though. Oh. And I’m not a Millennial, so I don’t care. It’s on the page. They got pissed off. I would read that. I’m a Millennial. So, I’ve written things. Are you pissed? No. I think was pretty accurate. The things I’ve gotten in trouble for writing, were things I didn’t see getting in trouble. And every time I’ve worried that something I wrote was gonna have a big backlash, it didn’t. Yeah. It just, and then everyone post facto was like, “Well, you knew when you wrote it.” Like, I just heard two very smart people say, like, “Salman Rushdie must have known when he wrote, you know, that that would really piss off Muslim clerics.” Yeah. And I was like, “He probably didn’t.” Yeah. Like, people write things all the time, and they, the backlash is sort of random. Yeah. But that gen, I did not know, as a member of Gen X, that Millennials felt about their Millennial-ness, like, a true identity. Yeah. And that they would be angry at people who said anything negative about their tribe. Yeah. I also didn’t quite understand how connected people were to their identity groups. Yeah. And that, and that gen and that, you know, being of a generation was one of them. It’s also like, I wish I’d spent more time in that article explaining this basic fact that generations are different from each other. Yeah. Because young, it’s very hard to see that when you’re young. You’re like, “I’m sure everyone was like that when they were at this age.” Yeah. And generations are, like, if we went to go talk to someone from, you know, the late 18th century, we’d have, we wouldn’t understand their honor system, we wouldn’t, it would just, it’s generations. It’s not just technology, it’s ideas, and things just change radically. Yeah, I’d like to consider myself, in most areas of my life, a nihilist, but like a positive nihilist. Yeah. Like, like, I love nihilistic positivity, where it’s like, yeah- What’s an example of that? Like, for example, when people talk about generations, because I’m known as the young guy at the office. Okay. How old is the old guy at the office? I don’t know, Rhett and Link, how old are they? Mid 40s? I think they’re Gen X. Oh, really? Yeah, they’re definitely Gen X. But I, for a long time, when I first got hired here, I was 20. And so, Wow. I was definitely the young person, like, the youngest full-time employee. I still think I am one of the youngest people here. I don’t know, since a lot of people have gotten hired, and I don’t ask people how old they are when they get hired, ’cause that’s weird. But I’ve definitely been kind of painted as like, oh, Trevor’s like the Gen Z kid in the office. And when they have questions about stupid things on the internet, it’s like, “Oh, Trevor, what does poggers mean?” And then I have to explain it, and I sound like an idiot as I explain it. Poggers is Pepe the Frog doing the PogChamp face. What’s up, why is, okay, so, Pepe the Frog became the alt-right guy. No! He was for a while. Pepe is not the alt- He was, 100%. So many, so many, In 2016. Millennials, and Gen X people say that Pepe the Frog 2016. is like an alt-right symbol. That is so fake. Now he’s not. No, I assure you, in 2016- No, he’s not. I’m in room for three days with Milo Yiannopoulos. All it is is Pepe the Frog. For a moment, during that election, he was the symbol of the alt-right. And then to my- No, that’s the same people that are like the okay hand is the symbol of the alt-right, like, people doing the okay hand. Like, it’s just like some weird, No. like, click-batey, like, witch-hunt thing, that people wanted to- No, I’m telling you, they owned this guy. This guy was everywhere with- It’s because the, Pepe the Frog is just so big in meme culture, that like- Right, but so did that- Everybody’s gonna use it. But I’m telling you, they owned him, and they owned that gorilla for a minute. Harambe. Harambe. They owned Harambe. They took this stuff. But then to my shock, they lost it again. They weren’t able to hold onto it. And now Pepe’s back to just being everywhere. There is actually, there is actually something that we were talking about before we got on the poggers tangent. It was you talking about, you were trying to give an example of positive nihilism. Yeah. Positive nihilism. Yes. Where was I going with that? Yes, so- That’s what you are. Is that, it’s the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine? Like, what’s the? It’s more of the like, like, for example, all the generations, like, there are people that get like very absorbed in the identities of generations, but for me, it’s like, yeah, there’s really stupid things about my generation, Gen Z. There’s things that suck about Millennials. There’s things that suck about Gen X. There’s things that suck about boomers. Like, every generation has some aspect of them that sucks, and is why, probably, there’s so much like combativeness between the generations, is because we’ve all identified that thing about them that we don’t like, and so we latch onto that. But we’re all just people, like, doing our best. And like, just because I was born, like, 15 years later than someone else, is that really a reason for me to like, dislike them, just because of when they were born, like? This is positive nihilism? Yeah, it’s like, everybody sucks, but like we’re all just people Oh, I see, okay. doing our best. Alright. Almost everyone I meet, I think is kind of awesome. Yeah. So, I’m really optimistic about people. I just think it’s hard to organize in ways that improve life. I would say I’m optimistic about people. I don’t wanna come across as that I think everybody’s a person, ’cause I don’t, and I think a lot of people are really good. I’m more, I’m more in the camp of like, I feel like there’s nothing that I can do to change the way anything works. Right. But that’s also the Hannah Arendt argument, which is like the world falls apart, not because bad people did things, but because good people did nothing. Yeah. It’s just hard to see what you can do sometimes. Like, it’s like, what is the, as a 23 year old, living in California, what can I realistically do to actually like, I- I don’t think it takes much. I think it’s the same thing, like when we talk about toxic masculinity. It’s just like when you’re in those conversations, and someone says something wrong, it’s having the guts to like tell them that’s not cool. Yeah. Like, I don’t think- Which I do. I don’t think it takes, if you, if you set the bar as heroism, like, then you’re not gonna do anything. Yeah. But if you set the bar of like not accepting things you know are wrong, or not just, like, being party to it. Yeah. I think, I think that’s important stuff. Well, I think, and now it’s kind of like circling back. I think that was, what I was trying to say in the first place, was that like, I don’t feel that there’s anything that I can do on a big-picture scale, or I don’t feel like I have any power, so I’m gonna do my best to just be a good person, and enrich the lives of people around me, and do what I can to make other people’s lives better. Yeah. But I think that’s not necessarily, I think that requires, and I’m, if I go to therapy, and I’m not right now, I’ve been, but it’s about being socially anxious in a very specific way, which is being afraid of confrontation in all parts of my life. Yeah. So, so I, I just have to kind of always remind myself that there’s some things I shouldn’t just not say anything about. Yeah, yeah. No, for sure. I- It’s hard. It’s, for me, it’s really hard. For some people, I know it’s not, but. Yeah. My goal in my life has always just been to be as kind as possible to people, and to make people feel as loved as possible. And I think that probably stems from when I first started struggling with mental illness, is like when I went through a time in my life where I felt like nobody loved me. Yeah. Even though that wasn’t true, I had plenty of people around me that loved me and cared about me, but I felt like there was no one there, and that I was completely alone. And since then, I’ve always wanted to do my best to just make people as happy as possible, and make people feel as loved and included as possible. Yeah, which isn’t easy. This was good. Not a lot of people- Is this what you do on dates? Do you talk about it being good afterwards? You that guy? Yeah. Alright, yeah. Yeah, how was it for you? Was it good for you? It was good for me. Yeah, there’s a lot of that after a date. I always didn’t like doing that after a date. Yeah. I felt like you just both had to say you had a good time, and then, yeah. Yeah. You wanna do it again sometime? I had a great time. Yeah. Next week? Yeah, no, for sure. Same time? Yeah, we’ll go to Tony’s, Wet Tony’s. Yeah, Little Tony’s. Wet Tony’s. Well, everyone, thank you. This has been Joel Stein, author, funny person, handsome-looking 51-year-old man. Finally, finally. Was that hard, it was so hard for you to say that. It wasn’t, it wasn’t. He has this book, “Man Made.” He also has another book called, “In Defense of Elitism.” I haven’t read that one, so I cannot speak to it, and I’m not gonna plug anything that I haven’t personally read Good for you. and audited. I’ve read it, so I can plug it. Okay, yeah, you’re more than welcome to in a second, once I get done plugging this. No, this is a really good book. I love it. I think it’s very funny. It’s very easy to read. It’s very good. Yeah, it’s just a really good book. You write other things. Check out Joel’s things. Do you have like a publication or anything that you do? Like a, anything personal that you do? Like a, what’s that thing that people write they use? Stack something. Substack? Substack. No, but you know, Medium paid me to write a weekly column. Okay. So, I’ve been, for the last, almost year, I’ve been writing a weekly column for Medium. Okay. Well, I mean, you’re probably better at plugging the things that you do than I am. So, tell people where they can find you, and what you’re working on. Yeah, they can read my Medium column, which is kind of the column I’ve been writing since college. So, I wrote at “Time” magazine for 20 years. Sweet. I have these two books. Twitter.com, Joel Stein. Everywhere else, Twitter. Yeah. I follow you. You follow me, I think? Yeah, of course, yeah, since we met. I really enjoyed Yeah. talking to you. Yeah. Well, I really enjoyed talking to you. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Oh, thanks for having me. This has been such a fun time. This is definitely unlike any other guest I’ve had before. What does that mean? It’s a good thing. Well, it’s a good thing, yeah. Why? Just because I haven’t had any “Time” columnist Old people? Oh, okay. on the show before. Oh, I have a podcast coming out in a few weeks. I was just gonna, yeah. Oh, yeah. I’m sorry, I forgot. That’s huge, yeah. Talk about that. Well, whatever. It comes out at Pushkin, which is a podcast company that’s putting this out. Yeah. That’s the Malcolm Gladwell podcast company. It’s called “Story of the Week.” And all I do, it’s so easy, is I find an amazing long magazine story, Okay. and I get the writer on, and basically, we have a conversation about that story. Okay. Basically, ’cause I know people aren’t gonna read long magazine stories. So, this is like a way of quickly, it’s like 30, 20 to 30 minutes, I think. We haven’t done, we haven’t cut it down yet. But it’s just gonna be every week. It’s called, “Story of the Week.” And it’s some magazine story you probably wish you read, but didn’t. Okay, awesome. Go check out Joel’s new podcast, “Story of the Week.” This, it’s gonna be just like this one. Just like this one. Yeah. Well, well don’t, don’t stop listening to this one though, please. It’s gonna be your new podcast. Yeah, yeah, add- You can listen to, Add it, you can listen but don’t subtract it. to multiple podcasts. You gotta choose podcasts. You don’t have to choose. You can listen to both. There’s only one. No one has time for two. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Everyone that was Joel. What a lovely person. I was struggling there at the end, ’cause I don’t know how to plug someone who’s just a writer. Like, I don’t know how to tell people, like, “Hey, go buy a magazine if you want.” Like, mostly people are like, “Oh yeah, here’s my channel. Here’s my social media. Here’s the project that I’m working on.” And he’s just like, “Yeah, I write things, for things that,” I don’t know. It was hard to plug him. But his books are really good. I would definitely recommend reading his books. And if you happen upon his writing, he’s very funny, and he’s a really good writer. So, give it a read if you want. But, yeah, Jamie, how do you think that went? I really enjoyed him. It was very, it’s like just, it’s nice to have someone on this show that’s just like completely different from anyone you’ve ever had on. Yeah. But like you guys flowed in conversation. Like, I felt bad in the beginning. I had to, like, I kept trying to interject, to be like, “Stop talking,” so we could start the show, ’cause this is good stuff. Yeah. And then, but. Yeah, no, it was fun. It was, I was definitely nervous and anxious about it. ‘Cause I’ve always felt like pretty confident in my abilities as a host, to be like, yeah, I can lead the conversation, and I can push it in directions that I want it to go. But this was hard, because he like, this is the first time that I felt like, “Oh, he’s probably a better interviewer and host than I am.” ‘Cause he has done it for a very long time. He’s interviewed people forever. That’s his job to like do, write pieces on. And he’s talked to so many people. And I was like, “Ah, I feel like I’m on my heels here. Like, he’s gonna take over the show.” No, I mean, it’s- I’m gonna be the interviewee. I mean, well he was actually asking you a good amount of questions, but. Yeah and it scared me. Well, ’cause he’s like, but- I don’t wanna talk about myself. But you could tell that it was like from a very, like, he’s a very curious person. Yeah. Which I think is why it makes him such a good writer, and a good interviewer. We didn’t get to it, it was on the sheet, but like he’s had celebrities completely like, hang up on him, Yeah. in interviews. That’s sad. I was reading a part of his book, and he was just, he mentioned that, casually, that he’s just friends with Jason Bateman. And I was like, he’s probably talked to so many cool people and interviewed so many cool people. Like, he was just like, texting Jason Bateman about something. That’s dope! And I was like, what the frick? I love Jason Bateman. I wanna be friends with Jason Bateman. That’s- I’m only, I’m only friends with, like, imagine you just interview Jason Bateman, and you become friends with him. The people that I’ve interviewed and become friends with, are like Andrew, Sigils. Like, how corny is that? That’s my claim to fame, is that I’m friends with Sigils. I know he doesn’t listen to the show. I’m gonna tell him about how I roasted him though. Yeah, I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna cut out that clip and send it to him. Good, do it, please. I really will. It’ll make his day. I think so. Freaking boomer. So, everyone, there’s a very special thing going on right now. It’s something that we’ve done in the past, so you’re probably familiar, but it’s the Golden Tee of Mythicality giveaway. So, you probably notice this very shiny, cool shirt that I’m wearing. I can’t, the mic, the microphone is hard to get it. You see the shirt. So. From, I’m gonna have to read, ’cause there’s details that I can’t memorize, ’cause I’m stupid. So, from Monday, 9/19, to Friday 9/23, you can participate in the giveaway, by going to mythical.com, and buying this shiny t-shirt. So, when you buy this, there’s a chance that when you get it, it will be a different color. So, the colors are aqua, rose, or the very, very big one, the golden one, which is why it’s called the Golden Tee of Mythicality giveaway. So, there’s a chance for you to receive that shirt. And the different shirts have different prizes associated with them. So, if you get the gold tee, you and a friend are gonna be flown out to LA on an all-expenses-paid trip to our studio, where you’re gonna come hang out with us, like, the Mythical crew, you’re gonna get a Mythical Kitchen dinner that we’re gonna cook. It’s gonna be fire, flamas, heat. And there’s gonna be accommodations at like this really nice glitzy Hollywood hotel, and a bunch of other surprises and stuff. So, that’s what happens if you get the gold one. The aqua tee wins Mega-Beast passes to MythiCon, for you and a friend, this October, including airfare and hotels. So, you have a chance to win tickets to MythiCon, which is sick. And then you’re also gonna receive an autographed MythiCon poster, some limited edition merchandise, and more. And then there’s also the rose tee, rose, as in rose, the color, and that tee wins a virtual taste test with Rhett and Link. So, you’re gonna be on a call with Rhett and Link, doing a taste test with them. So, it’s just really cool. There’s three different opportunities to win. And you can enter by going to mythical.com, and buying this shirt, and having a chance to win this giveaway there. Hold on. Check out, I’m gonna read this verbatim, ’cause it sounds legal. Check out mythical.com to enter the 2022 Golden Tee of Mythicality giveaway, for a chance to win one of these incredible experiences, no purchase necessary, void where prohibited. Visit mythical.com now for details. Yeah, all the details are gonna be there, probably way better than I’ve explained them here. But go check it out. It’s really cool. Very cool opportunity. Fun thing that we do every year. So, yeah. And it’s a cool t-shirt that you get no matter what, so. I guess this is where I do the, like, outro? Yeah, this is- Cool, well, thanks- The out part. Okay, I’m trying to do it. Hey, it’s, hey, Trevor. Hey. It’s the out part. Hey, can I just do it now? Mm, okay. Thank you. Thank you so much, everyone, for listening to “Trevor Talks Too Much.” You can find new episodes every Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts, and new video versions of the episode that came out Tuesday, the following Monday, on youtube.com/trevortalkstoomuch. You can follow me and other things on social media if you want to. And there’s also a TikTok, where we post clips called Mythical Pods. And it’s clips of all the different podcasts. And they’re cool. And thank you for listening to “Trevor Talks Too Much.” And thank you. And I’ll see you next time. Bye bye.