foreign [Music] welcome to best friends back all right the show where two High School best friends tried the best friend think again I’m naking homafar and I’m Stevie win Levine and today we are talking about well we’re talking broadly about intimacy coordination and TV and film um and and Theater and and various different entertainment mediums and we have a very special guest on today that I’m very excited to welcome I was thinking about it though I was thinking you know Nikki and I’ve taught you a lot about uh lesbian culture over this um yes over this show and even last week we were touching on the yearning you know Logan and I have reinforced lesbian yearning with you and I was thinking like who who enjoys simulated TV and film sex scenes more than lesbians that’s I this is what I’m I know I said that lesbians don’t like to put on body lotion I’ve made a lot of claims but now I’m claiming that lesbians are the number one target audience for simulated uh fake sex scenes in TV and film and I think this is because it echoes that yearning point you know like here is also what I’m gonna State maybe straight people are the number one audience for like porn you know like I’ll venture to say straight men let’s just say Okay um but I think going back to lesbians and a really good nicely choreographed spicy TV film sex scene preferably between two women really I think I think we’re the number one audience for that okay I think you might be the number one adult audience for that but I would venture to say that like a teenage girl a teenage girl who may or not may not come from an immigrant family might like it a little bit more I was all about Days of Our Lives I was all about Days of Our Lives yeah I would secretly watch it when my mom wasn’t home and they had all the spicy scenes I had no idea I mean it was for TV so it’s not like this is what you’re gonna get I didn’t know yeah well I off to that point I will say and and perhaps this is because there’s a limited number of films that are about uh lesbian relationships sure but I think you can ask virtually any lesbian of a certain age and I’ve been schooling Logan a little bit I think um and you know it is like my mind is like a library it’s like a catalog of each lesbian film and what the sex scene was in that film and what I think about it so um to that point uh it’s actually yeah this sets our way I don’t mean introducing you as the expert Stevie or is there someone legit coming I would like to introduce today’s guest Jessica steinrock I welcome to the show Jessica hi good to be here hi thanks so much for having me please stay after that introduction how could I leave yeah you were warned about my tendency to just want to say vagina repeatedly so I’ll say that but I was fair enough I first encountered you on Tick Tock which everyone knows at this point is my favorite platform and I it consumes the majority of my time but ditto your handle at intimacy coordinator you have in a lot of ways become the kind of peak Creator meets intimacy coordinator of your industry but I know that a lot of our friends listening don’t know much about what you do and so you’re an intimacy coordinator for TV and film intimacy director for theater you’re also the CEO of IDC which is the intimacy directors and coordinators tell us more about what it is that you do and and your industry at large so that people can kind of grasp those things yeah well it’s not surprising that a lot of folks haven’t heard about intimacy work because it is a fairly new position we really only see that title intimacy coordinator being used in like I think 2018 is the first time on the second season of HBO’s the deuce uh and that’s in TV and film and so Alicia rhodus was brought on to season two of that show uh and she did incredible work to really establish intimacy coordination for TV and film and then you can kind of trace the movement back it’s originating more in live performance so a lot of like Theater Works and in some ways it actually stems from fight choreography because you know right we’re not punching each other on stage we’re also not having sex on stage and so both of them are about masking an illusion and making it look like two body parts are in contact that are not in contact interest that brings back for me if I may uh a Broadway experience I had with my mother in which we um we chose a select number of shows to see in my adolescence and one of them was Avenue Q which was I I was obsessed but there is a puppet on puppet sex scene and that there is in that way and man you know watching sex scenes with your mom isn’t fun in general but watching puppet sex scenes with your mom live God in theater you can’t even forward now imagine that’s your entire career and your mom’s like Oh I want to see the shows oh my gosh I mean she’s so supportive right but I’m also like I can’t sit next to you and watch them do your family members like when you guys are hanging out do they are they ever like you know what s career makes sense for you like I could totally I totally see why you’re doing this because you didn’t oh you weren’t always an intimacy coordinator no my undergraduate degree is actually in advertising with a minor in atmospheric science so that’s a whole journey see the connection I can say that too but sorry I I had I interrupted you so so we started you started from a place of kind of comparing um kind of stage gaming in combat and and uh stage sex scenes which makes a lot of sense and so 2018 very recent so how did you get into the industry and then also like my biggest question too is like not every set has an intimacy coordinator and what what does that kind of evolution look like because I know that more and more Productions are moving towards using experts Like You on set so I know I just asked you a bunch of different questions at once but start where you want start where you want yeah I mean ultimately like we see in 2018 kind of the big burst of intimacy work and entertainment kind of on the backdrop of Harpy Weinstein and the metoo movement going viral after Toronto Burke’s work uh since like 2006 right so we kind of see everything meet in that 2015 2016-2017 that led to more cultural awareness that we can do better and that we have the tools to do better and so also kind of tangentially in that time my husband is also a fight director for Theater which is how I know about some of that work and so I had met some of his colleagues and so my background is actually an improv comedy and stand up as well like I did a lot of that an undergrad and yes um and so my Master’s Degree was really looking at the question of how do we navigate consent in spontaneous theater or spontaneous performance because I loved being an improviser I loved making jokes I loved you know being goofy on stage but also as a more petite woman I was often picked up grabbed licked kissed all sorts of stuff and I was like there has to be a better way to navigate consent so those are like my questions which then when I met some of you know my husband’s colleagues who were looking at the intersections of fight and intimacy work in theater I happened to meet some really incredible professionals really early on one of those being Alicia wrote us who I talked about earlier as she was the first intimacy coordinator on the deuce and so I got to be a part of the early stages of this movement and help create and Define what it is and work with some really incredible intimacy professionals who have been doing this work in other areas as well and just kind of riding the wave since then really advocating for this work that we really believe in so tell us at what point does uh in a script does do you start thinking we need an intimacy coordinator is it like they start French kissing or friends oh my God I told you seriously because they’ll say all sorts of stuff right like sometimes it’s like you literally see like he puts his tongue in her mouth or whatever like that can sometimes be really spelled out but other times it’s a lot looser and so for me like the the general guideline that I operate on is if there’s any kind of simulated sex nudity or simulated genital contact then you really should have an intimacy coordinator present and then there’s this kind of gray area where it’s like the heavy make out Zone that they call that heavy petting in the literature world the heavy petting would be simulated genital contact right and so then it’s just like where’s my build up I am I’m rethinking some of the things that I used to read as a kid I didn’t know heavy petting was that really a lot of times yeah I thought it was like grind like grinding that’s grinding is it yeah oh but you’re right okay so any kind of over the clothes oh okay I was thinking more like um those big centers that have like trampolines in them that kids go to play in I was thinking when you were thinking about like heavy makeout Zone I was envisioning like a large open space you know which I feel like we should sideline and explore because um yeah Stevie’s always looking for a uh a branding opportunity so this could be that okay so so any type of simulated sex body to body contact yeah specifically like simulated genital contact so it’s any like even hand over groin area like any time where we’re getting close you need to always have some kind of barrier there so okay uh just some pants isn’t gonna cut it when it comes to our guidelines um but so then like the heavy makeout zone is a little bit of gray area that’s where we want to consider things like is there a power Dynamic involved right a much older actor paired with a much younger actor or a celebrity paired with kind of someone who’s on their first you know day player role uh that’s where we also want to have a little bit more support there to make sure that we’re navigating consent appropriately and that all players have space to voice any concerns or questions that they might have that’s going to allow them to do their best work can we okay so this let’s step back for a second so walk us through you know what it is that you do because it’s not just I think that maybe there’s this idea that you choreograph things and that’s like that’s all that you do and I know that sometimes you do and sometimes you don’t but like it really is you keep bringing up the sword consent which I think is the headline of your role so walk us through what an intimacy coordinator does yeah that’s a great question so essentially there’s like three parts to this role part one is that we are a department head of sorts we are a liaison within the production which means we’re working with wardrobe we’re working with camera we’re working with the director we’re working with the actors and we’re making sure to use our lens of expertise to help every Department know what’s going on and be really prepared for the time we’re shooting then we’re also there as advocates we make sure that everybody has space to voice concerns to consider how they want to engage with this material to consider what their boundaries are and to have a space for those boundaries to be voiced that’s as free from power dynamics as we can get it so ultimately I can be a space of confidence where someone could come up to me and say hey I’m feeling really uncomfortable about this or I have this boundary but I don’t want to explain to people why I have that boundary and so we can really support them through that process then by using almost always that third part of our role which is choreography so we help to set how the you know the scene is going to go where hands are going to go where hands aren’t going to go where mouths are going to go where mouths aren’t going to go and then we also set up modesty garments and barriers working with wardrobe to make sure that every actor has the right equipment to perform those scenes safely and well but that choreography is really helpful when navigating consent because we know what’s going to happen ahead of time but it’s also creatively helpful because the directors and Camera folks will know where to point what to capture and we can really get into that the minutia of these beautiful stories that we’re telling and and so part of that is making sure that you are talking to each actor that’s going to be involved in the scene about what they’re comfortable with what’s about to happen what they don’t want to happen Etc so that when everybody comes together everyone’s on the same page about what everyone else is comfortable with yeah and I mean when I first started going on sets as an intimacy coordinator one of the biggest pieces of feedback I got was that for a lot of folks historically were like yeah we just never talked about this and it was kind of like on the day everyone was like all right we’re just gonna do it uh we’re gonna we’re gonna maybe guess or we’re gonna just be prepared for everything and that causes a lot of anxiety and a lot of stress and it also like gets in the way of navigating consent yeah absolutely and so that was one of the biggest pieces of feedback I got really early on was just like wow I’ve never been able to have this prepped two or three days in advance like I’ve never had time and space to really consider what my boundaries were or what I wanted or what I needed to to tell that story in the way that makes me feel good about it okay so you mentioned modesty Garment of it all yeah and so back to my catalog of um sex scenes uh I will say that at the L word and I’m talking about original L word not current L word that’s L word um it was shocking to me at the time and I have since Revisited the series and I still feel like whoa did they go to the absolute extreme of sex scenes on TV and then somehow did not bring that back for the the current iteration of the show and I I found myself always asking like how are they like how are they doing this and not actually doing this yeah and yes I know a lot of it has to do with camera angles and placement but then modesty garments are like a very big thing so like can you walk us through some of the basics when it comes to that and how we’re how you’re able to do it in a way that you can’t see that it’s there yeah I mean so we won modesty garment technology has come a long way uh which is really cool and fascinating in like the last three or four years even just like having new new modesty garments are being created all the time which is really exciting would you share an example of like the old version of a thong was this now it’s this like what what is an example um so we have there’s a garment that’s typically used for people who have penises and it’s historically called a [ ] sock um we like to call it a modesty pouch because that’s much more professional term um but it was also like historically it was made from the toes of socks it’s essentially a drawstring pouch okay um and so that just provides modesty but it doesn’t provide any kind of sensation protection hose of socks yeah like just that that toe part like not the ankle of the sock right huh you with me I you know I need to do a little extra work to to kind of Envision that but really imagine a sock cut the ankle off it depends on the actor yeah okay okay so it used to be a sock yeah and that’s still a garment that is in use but one of the challenges of that is that we have to have a barrier between actors genitals and a barrier has to be something like you know as thick as a yoga mat padding um so that’s always between two actors genitals which was uh in 2020 SEC after I also released a bunch of great updates one of which was uh you know the the necessity of barriers and so they’re that’s much more explicit now than it was before 2020. but so we always have a barrier in place um and some of the new modesty garments uh companies are creating essentially the pouches that have barriers included which means that they can be on just the front and we can still get full rear shots even though there’s a barrier attached to the front and so that’s a really big one that I’ve just love that that Innovation is happening so this makes me think of of something that actors go through before they sign their contracts if there is any nudity or yeah let’s just say any nudity you basically get a diagram of a body and you identify what parts of it you are or are not willing to share ooh it’s like a it’s like a color book it’s like a coloring book but of a body yeah I I actually I have so that part is done by illegal but it gets translated into written language and so that is in the contract that says I’m willing to show this much of my chest or this much of my rear end Etc and so that is contractually written into that but that’s what you have to then when you decide okay we have this great new technology on the front but oh this actor actually doesn’t like doesn’t want to show their butt so then you have to then think about what you would do to you know give the illusion of that yeah and again with those like with the 2020 sag after updates one of the other things that they’ve done which I think is really incredible is they’ve required 48 hours for an actor to have their nudity writer before shooting whereas before you could arguably sign it on the day which doesn’t give an actor a lot of time and space to really consider now they have to have that Rider with that language clearly spelled out of like I agree to this much nudity I’m going to perform these simulated sex acts and so we have to spell that out 48 hours ahead of time which is really important because then on the day we can’t pressure anyone into changing that up or doing anything new or being like Oh what if we just tried this we have to give that 48 Hours of space so that that person can fully consider any impact that that might have on them so you said that sag instituted this barrier kind of policy in 2014. those of you don’t who don’t know sag is Screen Actors Guild it’s a union for performers yeah and people working in the Arts but prior to that that didn’t exist like and or were there guidelines for sex scenes and nudity and then they just have been updated over the years or and what is that kind of evolution look like yeah there there were guidelines prior to 2020 they just weren’t as clear um and they weren’t as specific and so there was a little bit less certainty about what we could and could not do which caused a lot of challenges and problems with communication which is why we saw such great achievements in that 2020 contract and largely I think because of intimacy coordinators and actors having these conversations and actors advocating back to sag-aftra that these changes were really impactful for them so that has been just a huge win in the last few years but it’s still not a requirement to have an intimacy coordinator it’s still a choice that that production is making it is yes and it HBO and many other companies have come out and said that they’re requiring intimacy coordinators on every set but that’s not something that’s like mandated by a union as of now and part of this is also because unions have to negotiate contracts there’s a lot of steps involved which is why uh sag after again has done a lot of really positive things to advocate for intimacy coordinators even though they haven’t been able to mandate them on sets they’ve posted a lot of guidelines a lot of tips and they’re hopefully creating a pathway to get intimacy coordinators into sag-aftra which would be amazing I think they just released an update about that a couple months ago but yeah I see it in their future hopefully fingers crossed [Music] Hello friends midterm elections are coming up on November 8th and we want you to be educated and informed to exercise your right to vote so that’s why we’re bringing back vote like a beast this year go to vote likeabbeast.com to check your voting status register if you need to and stay informed for the midterm elections we also have stickers for sale with 100 of our profits going directly to our partners at vote.org but we want you to be your mythical best go over to vote likeabeast.com educate yourself and exercise your right to vote I I want to admit something Jessica and I I hope that what I say does not somehow like invalidate uh suggests that I want to invalidate the need for your position oh no please but my husband and I sometimes will watch shows or movies and there will be a sex scene in there that just feels like gratuitous yeah why is it there like what we we know it we know they’re into each other we don’t need 45 seconds of this very awkward uncomfortable sex scene and they’re not doing it very agreed it is a great okay sometimes the people that are doing it are ones you want to watch having sex other times not so much and so I want to know like what is a version of simulating Um passion and intimacy that isn’t sex based that you have that you have seen done well like is there is there a version of that or do you think sex is is required oh no I definitely don’t think sex is required I think there are so many ways to tell stories of intimacy I mean like some of the most beautiful moments are like fingertip raises and longing stickers right breathing into each other’s faces with the lips just barely touching until one person pulls away I’m getting killed I know I know it’s so good um so I don’t think I don’t think simulating sex is always the answer to telling the right story and telling those intimacy pieces but I think one of the big misconceptions about my job is that it’s my job or that intimacy coordinators are there to direct the scene if we’re not right we’re there to facilitate a director’s vision and so there are a number of times I worked on a show and been like is that my story I would want to tell no but here’s the modesty garments you need here’s like how can I help you get to that goal yeah because ultimately directors are the ones who are making those choices and being like yeah I really want this moment to be gratuitous or to have this you know so then we have consent all around where actors need to consent for their bodies to be used to tell specific stories if that if you followed that train um and likewise for me there are some projects that I’ve turned down because I’m like I don’t like the way this is told I don’t like the messaging of something out so I’m just not going to be a part of it okay that’s I I was wondering hearing about and sorry to use the word rub but I was wondering about the rub that you might encounter with a director because you know there’s in in my Rolodex there’s been films about lesbians that are clearly directed by straight men in which lesbians are like what happened there I still enjoy those films uh but um I would assume that with the evolution of the industry well one there would be people on set that actually do have knowledge of things like that in reality that consult and or are participating in the conversation but also like so that’s one question then two do you find yourself in an awkward situation where you’re like hey this is I am an expert in what we’re doing right now but the director is you know the one in charge here and I and there’s a there’s a disagreement but a yeah how does that work too I mean it works very similar to what you just said it’s like yep I have opinions I have thoughts I think this is wrong and also my job is to help you get there safely my first priority is always actor safety actor safety and making sure they consent to whatever their body is doing and whatever their Visage is being used to to tell a story and as long as that’s happening the rest of it I’m like okay within a certain margin of error I can get behind all of it you know yeah but but yeah so sometimes it’s a little bit of just like grin and Barrett and I offer and if they don’t want it that’s totally their prerogative um because that’s at the end of the day that’s their name as the Director on that piece right okay so you you have you know time to figure out what needs to be done for this piece you speak with the actors with the directors to make sure everyone’s on the same page but then the day of when it’s time to film that spicy scene what is what is actually happening are there like the 200 people they’re on set is it cold like are you adjusting the temperature to make sure that people are comfortable at least and this is not entirely on me too right like there are people there like the 80s and the set folks like there are so many people and I almost every set I’ve walked onto has had a whole crew of folks whose priority is the safety of the actors doing that scene because everybody recognizes how vulnerable it is to be naked on a film set like it is just so vulnerable um so we have closed up protocols which means that only essential Personnel are near where the filming is taking place and everybody else is like standing against walls with their backs turned there’s like flags that go over it’s like they’re in timeout yeah it’s honestly it’s but it’s scary it’s such a sweet thing and it’s so respectful kind of seeing people like facing the walls and you know looking at uh their paperwork or something right they there’s always an element of making sure that there is privacy for the really intimate thing um some sets I’ve been on actually with like tape cameras uh on people’s phones so that there’s no way that photographs can be taken yeah yeah there’s some like really beautiful stuff that like other crew members will work to to make that environment as good as possible for the really vulnerable work that’s taking place and then you know it’s usually just me the director and the actors at first working on what exactly the Motions are going to be where do we want this scene to go uh I’m marking it through you know kind of without acting but like you know putting our bodies kind of in the shapes that they need to be in to get a sense of the Arc of the story or the Arc of the physicality and then if there is something that’s going to require more masking or more choreographic technique then I can kind of step in there and help them be like okay so if the camera’s here then your head needs to to be here so that it’s covering this thing that we can’t see because it’s not the right or yada yada I was going to ask I know that there’s you know all the conversations that you said leading up to the actual shoot day but a lot of times there’s not really rehearsal built into TV shoots and so what you’re describing is very much like this scene is going to happen we’re going to talk about it right now and then it’s going to be shot and perhaps this is just actors specific but like is there ever any other rehearsal that goes into those moments and because I’ve always wondered like even if it’s just a um heavy makeout Zone um situation like I’m friendship those two actors like talk to each other in advance and say like hey you know we have this scene coming up and like what do you want to do about it are you you know like I I just don’t know how that happens not always but ideally we do have a rehearsal a couple days before those kinds of scenes doesn’t always happen I would say 30 of the time we get a rehearsal and a lot of times we get an extra rehearsal if it’s a scene that has something of a more delicate feature whether that’s the age of the actors whether that’s uh there’s another Power Dynamic involved whether that’s a complex camera thing so we need to really make sure the choreography is settled ahead of time those are the times we get extra rehearsal time but more often than not we’re rehearsing it on the day the same day that we’re shooting it as well so for for my process I’m always having conversations with the actors many days ahead of time so they get a sense of like here’s what’s going to happen here’s what’s going to be asked of you they get to chance to talk with the director usually there’s a time for them to meet prior to being on set and on the very rare occasions that there isn’t I make sure there’s time for them to meet before they’re we’re rehearsing or before you know I I don’t like the makeup trailer yeah right where you’re like shaking hands you’re like great we’re gonna kiss in about two seconds nice to meet you like that’s the I try to avoid that one okay okay so to give them that space because again it’s weird no other job really asks you to kiss your co-workers do you help actors or hear actors talk about it being awkward not only because it’s not natural you don’t know the person necessarily to to have the feeling that makes you want to kiss them but you might be married you might be in a relationship and or the other person is and like does that come up all the time all the time and this is something with so I I you all mentioned that I run a training organization um called intimacy directors and coordinators and we have five pillars that we talk about that goes into scenes uh scenes of intimacy uh and and the four first four like context closure communication consent but this last one or I baby I said closure anyway closure is the last one that I wanted to talk about that’s really where I’m getting that because there’s an element that we talked to for actors and for intimacy coordinators about how do we leave the story on set because our bodies and our brains actually have a really hard time differentiating what’s real and what’s imaginary and so there are X extra mental practices that we can engage in to help ensure that the emotions that we feel because they’re real when you’re filming that stuff it’s it’s real your body your heart’s gonna palpitate you might sweat blood’s going to be flowing in different places like those are real ramifications of this scene work so how do we leave that behind to ensure that it stays on set which can be really reassuring for people with Partners or for partners themselves to hear about oh these are the practices to like close out the scene we shake hands with our colleagues we say thank you we really reinforce that what just took place was part of the work environment not based in any kind of true real world feelings that is supremely interesting but when you mentioned that it was something that like comes up often I would imagine that well I mean I guess you tell me but I I would think and making maybe you have this type of experience that every actor has had the conversation with their partner that like this is this is okay everyone has their own boundary of of you know what that looks like and is and that’s part of the conversation that they have with you where it’s like you know this is the line that I’m willing to go up with because of the kind of contract I have with my partner the one thing I say I would say to that is I feel like even if you have had that conversation and that’s if you have had I doubt everyone has had that conversation yeah right fewer people than should I would imagine that that boundary evolves it depends on the story it depends on who you’re working with like I where I would feel more comfortable or not like I don’t think it would be like I am never okay with my ass being shown I am never okay with X it like depends is it is it a scene that I think is I don’t know gonna make my ass look especially good yeah so I think it depends so my my the reason I say that is because I feel like you still then have to help people navigate the the comfort in that moment yeah we talk about boundaries also being specific in that you get to have boundaries that are specific to each and every situation you might be totally okay with a long-term colleague who you’ve worked I mean it’s season four of a show yeah like it’s so clear that your day-to-day lives are not romantic the boundaries might be very different about what you’re willing to engage with with that person than what you’re willing to engage with with someone completely different on season one episode one of a brand new show um so your boundaries are going to shift day to day person to person if something happened to you yesterday that makes you feel really cautious about someone touching your shoulders that’s going to change your boundaries on that day as well so we talk a lot about uh this idea that you get to have boundaries that are different each time and just because you were okay with having your butt shown last episode doesn’t mean that production can expect you to have your butt shown every episode moving forward so that navigation is really important then then when you add a partner to that and their boundaries are something you’re trying to listen to respect and have conversations about absolutely there’s a lot of complexities there to finding the pathway towards best work what about in the opposite scenario like what about if it’s two people who are actually are in a real life relationship but you still have to like follow the guidelines and do everything correctly they’re like we want to do it for real and he was like no no that’s a different film yeah well and also right the crew didn’t sign up to see that that day yeah like that would be a no-go my friends and well I mean is that conversation difficult for you to have like I can imagine that also being like kind of weird where it’s like I know that that you are what’s the weirdest thing you don’t I don’t know what’s weird I’m saying we want to do it for real and her coming well no I guess not that it’s so much as like um what the rules and guidelines are versus like because I could imagine oh someone saying like I don’t need I don’t need that modesty garment or I don’t need that boundary and then you have to be the one that says like well actually you do and this is why like I don’t know I just think that that could also be a interesting conversation to navigate it is an interesting conversation to navigate that’s actually a great way to put it because it’s not it’s not good or bad it’s just information right that a lot of times what I hear is people feel that feel really confident with their scene partner right because they’re in an actual relationship with them uh they feel really confident and trusting of their scene partner they feel really confident and trusting of the set they feel really great about the story that they’re about to shoot so like the information I’m really picking up is that they’re feeling calm cool and collected um and so for me what I just have to do is add information which is also that hey the camera folks are also going to be on set and are witnessing this and they need to know you’re safe and they aren’t consenting to seeing certain things they’ve only consented to seeing what’s in the script and what we’ve told them ahead of time is going to happen so even if you’re willing to do some big improvisation when it comes to an intimate scene we still need to make sure that we have consent for everyone else involved which you know and they need time and space to consider that which is why we have these guidelines and regulations in place and then beyond that you know and I don’t I don’t always bring this one out but it it’s relevant to the conversation we’re having here coercion can still happen in real relationships yeah and so especially when there’s a work contract involved you know and that’s not again that’s not something I usually bring up with actors because usually once I say cast and crew they’re like oh totally game on um but for me as well just as a professional when I get that question uh it’s all about this is a workplace this is a work environment these are the policies and we want to make sure that everybody can say no at any time and I don’t know the status of their relationship I don’t know how well they’re communicating in any other space but I can offer my professional support to ensure they’re communicating well about the work we’re going to do on set I can just imagine how uncomfortable it would feel to say stop or no or like this is feeling weird when you’re in the middle of a scene yeah even limited people number of people watching but when you’re with working especially with people that are maybe more seasoned than you are like if nobody else is saying anything maybe this is actually supposed to be fine like why am I being sensitive to this and so what is an actor doing when they like how can you tell when somebody is uncomfortable but they’re not able to to articulate that verbally yeah I mean one I’m usually checking in in between almost every take which you know sometimes and I love it when this happens when an actor is like yeah yeah I’m fine I’m fine it’s like okay go away you know but that’s that’s for me it’s golden like I would love to be in that spot where they’re like yeah I’m good I’m good um and so when I’m checking in I usually do like a thumbs up thumbs you know like give me a thumbs up thumbs down and so you can kind of see through body language uh is really helpful I also always offer some kind of non-verbal cue that they can use to get my attention sometimes it just looks like the so-so flat hand Wiggles sign um which can be really small and really subtle and can literally just be used because they would need some water or they need a quick break or whatever that is and so we build in all these spaces where I’m okay being the one to be like yeah we need a break uh let’s take five you know like talk to ad I’m like hey is it cool if we take a big break right now or talk with the director like I’m happy to be the one that’s asking for that break so that the actor doesn’t even feel like they need to be the one to ask for it they can just signal me and I’m the one who’s happy to be like yeah I’ll I’ll cause the I’ll cause the pause and get that person’s space to to do that yeah to just recollect themselves and get prepared and then if they need anything we can make that adjustment okay I’m going to be the one to ask it but I know that you this is like one of the number one questions I’m ready what happens when an actor does get aroused during one of those scenes what is that conversation like is that something that happens beforehand um I I’m sure at this point you have a little speech that goes along with that now Edward what do you say I think what’s been interesting about uh frankly my Tic Tac channel is that there’s just so many people that have had this question so many actors that have had this question and never been able to ask it of anyone because who on the rest of the Productions yeah right so like there’s sometimes when I walk onto a set and like someone comes up to me and they’re like I need to know I just I’ve just like gritted my teeth and and just hoped for the best every other time but now that I have you what do I do yeah and none of those people are actors that ask you huh I’m getting I’m getting it um I mean ultimately there’s two things one it’s that you can call for a break at any time for any reason right just as we were talking about before we build in that break process so that you never have to justify why you need a break that’s just built in whether that’s a word a hand gesture or something like you just say hey I need a break and that’s immediately respected I don’t I don’t know if the hand gesture would help how long does somebody what kind of what length break time do we need for for kind of reducing arousal I’m serious no this is a good question and I will also say it is never to my knowledge happen on a set that I’ve worked on because also you’re crowded and you’re filming this take like a million times really well she her actors are also using the the toe sock not the foot sock well so that’s the other part is that there’s also a barrier in place and that barrier is designed to protect against sensitivity but then also it’s it’s a sensitivity barrier both ways so if someone does have a vascular reaction your scene partner is not going to feel anything because there’s a big chunk of yoga mat padding between you okay and so you can call for the break and no one ever needs to know so you’re you’re really saying that like no break has been taken to your knowledge because of that reason not that an actor hasn’t gotten aroused yeah right okay that’s like but I know I just don’t think that’s something true but they’ve never had to expose that or be like oh this is it they didn’t have that embarrassing moment okay okay and then they can essentially you know they get to say I need to however long they want to take well Negan would like to know exactly how long yeah I guess I could just ask Zach too I don’t need to ask in public on a podcast and it’ll range from person to person it’s all different factors yes okay I I wanted to talk a little bit about age in the sense that um I would assume that there’s older actors who are more seasoned who are kind of set in their ways who kind of brush off this entire thing and it might be difficult to work with them because they’re kind of like well back in my day you know we just stuck it in you sound like that too yeah absolutely yeah we just stuck it right in there I mean I’m telling you the L word was pre-2020. Dr steinrock please come in with your expertise well and my expert opinion no no but but but really yeah like I would assume that there’s older actors that you know are just like this is ridiculous or like why do we have to do this yeah I mean honestly too what I’ll say is that resistance goes across the age and gender Spectrum uh so I’ve had resistance from younger actors and as well as older actors and a lot of times it really comes rooted from a place of fear that they’re they’re trying to do their best work and they’ve imagined that they can only achieve their best work as an actor by doing something a certain way um so that’s that’s one side of it and the other side of it is there is an element of like oh trauma bonding is probably too strong of a word but an element of like I went through it so you have to go through it too like um right walked uphill both ways and now we’re making it easy for the Next Generation which is that kind of energy but that also comes from a place of like they had to go through and do a lot that can feel and in order to be okay with that for someone else they might have to confront what they went through that wasn’t great yeah and so like I like to approach anyone who’s resistant to me or wants to write off my role usually from a place of like curiosity and understanding and then I just say okay I’m here to help you do your best work within my own boundaries like here’s what I need to do my job what do you need to do your job and where can we find compromise in the middle that’s going to make both of us feel really supported and keep those regulations in place you sound like such a good person [Laughter] it shows it shows [Music] one other scene well one other the show that comes to mind I would say is Euphoria because they are you know on on one end of the spectrum but mostly like I’ve heard a lot of rumors about prosthetics for that show and well one I guess like does your role come into play even like locker room scene it’s all nudity but there’s no sex and there’s two like how do you interact with prosthetics Etc because I heard that a lot of that is Prosthetics and not real I mean good Prosthetics though oh yeah are we talking about PP Prosthetics yeah like yeah okay there’s a lot of peepees in Euphoria I guess we’re speaking with expert uh we should say penis there’s many a wee-woo out in Euphoria and I and I I thought they were prosthetic wews I mean and and sorry we don’t know we don’t know if they are real or prosthetic for sure not always good Prosthetics are are good Prosthetics oh yeah oh and I guess they don’t reveal it okay so you don’t have you don’t have the secrets to that particular question about no I couldn’t tell you which ones are which but it is guaranteed to be a prosthetic if someone is touching it so if someone’s if you see someone’s hand on someone else’s genitals that is a prosthetic if it is their own hand too yes it would be okay that’s super interesting I’m saying like you guys anything if it’s being touched yeah and you’re seeing a wee-woo being touched it’s prosthetic on camera oh because you can’t touch yourself on camera either it’s correct that would be considered a sex act which you can’t do yes the Screen Actors Guild protects against sex acts and so do you think your best guess to uh I don’t know why I think the locker room scene just had a lot of penises so that’s what I’m thinking about um do you think it was it is likely that essentially like actors either said I’m comfortable with showing my penis or I’m not and that was the divide in like what was prosthetic and what wasn’t or we just you just don’t know the answer to that particular thing I mean I can talk in general I can’t talk about that specific scene since I don’t work on it yeah in general like if we’re going to have a big scene where there’s a bunch of people who are nude you’re gonna cast for that and in the casting you’re gonna say we want folks that are going to show this and this and a lot of times if they’re just background like a locker room scene where they’re walking around or moving that’s probably them um unless it’s like a main character where there’s gonna be like a zoom in and it’s supposed to look a certain way the main character penis is usually a breast size I mean well I’d say there’s like there’s like a lot of like close-ups in that particular scene but it does like production wise make sense that you wouldn’t invest in a prosthetic given the cost and everything if like it’s a group of dudes in the locker room what about props I do want to talk about props that you use and uh and what’s your favorite one huh I mean and to and like props that you use in your work to be clear I got that one thank you there was a beautiful lamp I just the lighting I mean sometimes the lighting is stunning you know I haven’t had a lot of like really fun props um but I am thinking about a very specific time where we could not keep the sheets on the actors in the way that it needed to be and so there’s a lot of like thrown out footage where I’m like running onto set to recover them up without like calling cut in between the scenes so you know me and that sheet had a lot of good times um there’s a show that we have advertised on best friends back all right that’s called tell me lies I don’t know if either of you have seen it nakin of course I have seen it did you not hear me talk about it it’s it’s uh really good and it’s a very explicit and so like the the intimate scenes in this show they’re always depicting um College college students and um I guess this is kind of like what Stevie was saying with the l word but the the things that they’re doing it’s like it’s their own bodies hands and and and body parts all intertwine I’m just kind of at a lot because I’m seeing a lot of I don’t know what I’m trying to say what do you saying seeing a lot of what I’m just seeing so much body that it surprises me that it’s not real but you but I’m also realizing you told me that they’re having they’re wearing things that cover it but how do you how do you put that how do you wear something without showing double stick tape yeah wait so you have to be like you’ve got to be waxed and shaven no the the best trick is baby oil and most oils will take off adhesives super easily and so like any kind of like K Tape or body tape or double stick tape you just apply some baby oil you saturate the tape and it comes right off no hair pulling required which is really important too to like not have to dictate someone’s body or shaving practices um yeah and there’s there’s different ways too like if there’s uh there’s a really cool garment that I’ve used that essentially is you know a pouch in the front but it uses fishing line to keep it all the way on and that fishing line oh it’s like this can’t really pick it up or if you do pick it up it’s really easy to erase later and so that’s very different than like you know a big hunk of tape or something or there’s you know there’s also different ways to protect skin before the tape goes on if someone has an adhesive allergy or something like that one thing I I’m remembering about this scene is that when they were in the throes of passion sometimes the face they were making was a little bit strange and so do you are you advising people like you know a little less here a little more there like what kind of direction are you giving them for their pleasure face I think Stevie’s losing it a little bit she she’s let me tell you she’s actually very interested because she needs to know well I I do like that question because I did see a tick tock on on your um page about just like having an orgasm and directing like that to a certain extent but then I also I the reason I was laughing is because like I have questions that I was analyzing is that appropriate to ask right now and also so you weren’t thinking about my question you were thinking about your questions listen I watched that show that you’re talking about like I know that show like back in my hand so frankly I know all the answers to that show but anyway yes okay okay let’s see let’s see if we if this expands what we can ask yeah okay so my professional answer here is that I always root it in this story and so the question is does the face match the story we’re trying to tell yeah because you know I can’t say whether or not that’s the appropriate face for someone to have or not have in a real moment of intimacy right yeah yes and so what I’m always trying to do is say is this conveying the story does this feel authentic to the character and then if it doesn’t then we can use some more specific language of like relax your face or we want your face to be tighter we want this you know can can that sound go higher be louder be more high pitched so you can really dial it in with those very specific qualifiers to get to the story we want to be telling but there are also other times where I’m like you know I turn to the director and I’m like how does that look to you and they’re like it looks great and I shut my mouth right yeah that’s what I was going to ask specifically about that direction is like is I would imagine it just depends on the director in your relationship with them because like you have some directors that are like uh you know I would prefer if you could give notes during the scene and or I do have notes I’m going to give them through you versus the directors who are like I got this and yeah you know so I that’s what I would assume that’s like yeah I work differently with each and every director those essentially you mapped out the three main types is you know um and again I’m there to navigate consent as well so like that’s the hard line for me to be like okay if we’re gonna change the Motions or we’re going to change the physicality we want to make sure we’re having a quick consent check-in to make sure that everybody’s on like on the same page about that but when it comes to the directing of the scene the emotions of the scene uh you know getting the actors to to emote in the ways that tell the story that the director wants and the actors are excited about telling I am I have a lot to offer that I don’t need to offer and it really is how much they want that and how much they agree with with my opinions on it right they also might disagree with what I think is going to tell the story best uh and that’s just gonna collaborate differently with each and every person so you know I’ve already told you you seem like a great person um thank you and likewise just like very thought you’re it’s clear that you you have to constantly be checking in and be very thoughtful and conscientious about the way that individuals are interacting and I’m curious like if you’ve seen be becoming a intimacy coordinator if that has helped you like change at all I don’t I’m usually yeah absolutely or were you just always like oh no oh no I am an anxious little little puppy like that is I’m a people pleaser through and through uh and people Pleasers have a really hard time knowing our boundaries and speaking about our boundaries because we’re deeply afraid of getting being an inconvenient unions are causing too muchness for people around us yeah and part of like me being an intimacy professional is also knowing that I have to be really self-aware of where my own triggers are um what’s going to flare me up emotionally and also know how to listen to other people’s triggers traumas challenges boundaries without having them mean anything about me and to be able to support them means that I can’t take on emotional burden um and people have a lot of really challenging stories from this industry uh times where they’ve felt taken advantage of times where they didn’t feel like they had body autonomy or agency and so when you’re someone whose role is to give them space to voice their boundaries their comfort levels what uh what they’re excited about to do that day and what they’re afraid of a lot of times they’ll use that space to share really horrendous stories quite frankly of what they’ve had to endure and go through and so being able to like listen to those stories but not internalize them has been really really tough and it’s made it’s really forced me to look at what are my own boundaries how am I practicing saying my boundaries how am I holding my boundaries on set so that I can hold someone else’s boundaries how am I navigating consent in my day-to-day life and how am I talking about consent or about communication or boundaries so that you know even in passing so that it builds up incrementally people’s trust in me and confidence that I’m going to you know match the words that I use in everyday life as well so yeah it’s it’s taught me a lot and I’m really grateful for the skills that I’ve picked up since since starting this line of work yeah you facilitate a safe space so making sure that you have one for yourself seems pretty damn important yeah well I I think that the lingering question if I had to guess for for people listening is how does one become an intimacy coordinator yeah it’s uh it’s a lot clearer of a path now than it used to be so as y’all mentioned before I run a training organization called intimacy directors and coordinators and we have a pathway where someone can get certified as an intimacy coordinator for TV and film or an intimacy director for live performance uh it is a long training program because there’s a lot of skills we have to cover about consent boundaries and then also simply the choreography piece of it how are we masking all of these things what are the techniques you need what modesty garments are you using what modesty garments are you not using what’s the set etiquette when you walk on so we have a really great training program with some of the top intimacy Professionals in the globe quite frankly and we’ve been able to to really make an impact and see qualified intimacy coordinators entering the space and we hope to continue this trend and and just share more education in the entertainment industry about consent and this work so where can people go who are listening now for for more information yeah they can check out our website idcprofessionals.com also if you just Google intimacy directors and coordinators were like right up there at the top so that’s that’s nice to have a good SEO business name nice the heavy makeout Zone okay cool well thank you again so much for being on the show love learning all this stuff we’ll continue to follow you on Tick Tock and see you pop up in my fyp and excellent thank you thank you thank you both so much it was really fun man I don’t know did I did I tell you that my mom would like fast forward through sex scenes all the time when we were I kind of appreciate that that’s like your mom would make you sit through it consider it well you know what’s interesting is that when I was back home I was like we should totally watch A League of Their Own thinking like it’s a period piece and it’s really well done and Cassie’s like no no and I was like well I mean I think episode one is fine and then like it’s not really that and then like I was yeah I elected not to watch the rest of the series with my with me we would miss we would miss like entire sections of like the storyline because we would get past like VHS was you know you would stop and start and you’re like ah no we’re in the and then the DVD was chapter by chapter so we would miss but I do wonder if my mom listens to this and she like hears the backstory to these sex scenes not really being no so manufactured if she thinks about it differently I think that you know a topic of conversation in my household is just like production how things are are made and Cassie hates hates me when I say anything about anything that we’re watching that takes her out of just like the experience of being an audience member you do it while you’re watching I don’t I I I’m really trying not to I really try not to but sometimes some things just like I need to say it or like it’ll happen a lot too if like she’s trying to watch any kind of reality show like I just I’m like I cannot I don’t have any tolerance for anything but like it’s always amazing to me the stuff that she doesn’t pick up on because she’s not looking for it and like we talk about frequently here some of the things that we do behind the scenes that that you don’t pick up on as an audience member because that’s not what you’re looking for you don’t run like what is the production secret behind the thing that I’m right you want to be yeah yeah it’s like I I fully understand that filming sex scenes is probably very awkward there’s a bunch of super unsexual standing around you don’t really know the person you probably have a partner that this is going to be an awkward-ish conversation like all of those things are valid but if you can like direct a good sex scene and leave it in the story where it’s supposed to be then you shouldn’t be thinking about any of those that’s true you know and now I’m hoping that the stuff that we see it’s like there’s less of a question of like oh was that really awkward for the actors or was that that seems kind of like icky that now I feel like that seems icky like just like a discuss I don’t know kind of gross maybe now it’s kind of like oh there was somebody that that coordinated that that’s great that I do wind up asking myself and not just for like lesbian sex scenes or or makeouts or anything is like if it’s clear that the actors actually don’t really like each other in real life I look for that all the time because you can kind of see that it’s like oh that was that that kiss was not a real kiss because it seems like they don’t really like each other you know some people are bad kissers some people oh yeah some people are bad kissers yeah well okay I I we learned some stuff I said I feel good about like uh what I didn’t say so I’m sure I’ll reevaluate but yes thank you to Jessica for coming on because yeah I’m now I’m excited to get into a spicy scene hi your meat Oh I thought you were excited to get into an awkward moment of the week which is now what we’re going to get into yeah yes I am let’s see what you can come up with this is a good time to come up with an awkward wow okay it’s fresh on my mind because it happened last night and I it’s a it’s a um broad scenario that I that I happened to participate in but you know how when you order a bottle of wine when you’re going out to dinner and it was Cassie it was Cassie’s birthday so we went out to dinner and we always have the conversation of like are you gonna have two glasses of wine or one glass like are we gonna get a bottle or whatever so we ordered a bottle you know how they will come to the table they’ll open the bottle that you ordered and they’ll pour you a little taste yes and then they’re like waiting for you to say yes this is good well we were kind of joking around with the waitress at this place and she like poured me which I’m like God why me why me a taste of the wine that we ordered and um Cassie decides to like have a conversation with her about like do people actually taste their wine and send it back and like what do you do with the bottle and whatever and as Cassie’s talking about this and she’s like we would never be those people I’m like tasting the wine that’s been poured for me and I’m like I don’t know what a bottle of this this is wrong about this and so I said like I said something like this is an effervescent you know this doesn’t have a sparkle to it and she’s like oh no if it if it seems like that that’s gonna calm down or whatever and so I’m like okay yeah yeah and then she leaves and then this is like a weird like maybe Coastal deep cut but the wine we ordered a cab which I like a cab but it came chilled which I don’t like a cold red and what I realized was this is like an LA restaurant that specializes in natural wines which is like a new Vibe I’m not into the vibe yeah it kind of tastes like it’s gone bad it tastes like vinegar and so like she leaves the table Cassie hasn’t tried the wine yet Cassie tries the wine and she’s like is this wine bad I’m like I don’t know I tried to say something about it being effervescent like we like are we gonna call her back to the tape like what’s gonna happen here and so just like this whole thing ensues where like it was supposed to be a nice dinner and it was but like we were both like in this awkward place of like this wine seems weird and so we’re like Googling the line to see if because the real question is like is the wine bad if the wine is bad we don’t want to drink the wine if the wine isn’t what we thought it was gonna be I can change my mindset and go I’ll drink this kombucha wine totally you’ll stomach it yeah and soap [ ] up thing is that like when you Google a wine like that they never talk about the fact that it like smells like vinegar or has like kombucha aftertaste it’s all like the taste of a smoky bonfire Meats like friends who are gathered around an episode of stranger things you know like it’s just like well I can’t it tastes like fear yeah there’s like fear there’s no notes of vinegar like you know anyway so we wind up concocting that like we’re gonna invite the waitress back and we’re gonna just say like do you drink can you you know grab yourself a glass of this and just make sure that it’s not right um but of course she pulls over the director of wine oh no she escalates which is also I think a very La thing okay which the business part of me is like what is this guy you know I think that if I ran a restaurant I could have like a wine consultant who updates the menu every eight weeks like this dude is the director of wine he’s just like there all the time anyway okay director they want to take him out of a job it looks like he’s about 21 years old maybe right and so then I put it all together and I’m like this is this is a natural wine place he’s like he says like there might be like some vinegary notes to it and I’m like okay dude I got your I got everything about you I got this Echo Park Restaurant I got this natural wine thing I got baby face wine director man I’m putting it all together and I’m drinking the [ __ ] kombucha and it’s fine but I don’t know it just like it was awkward it’s awkward in those wine scenarios too yeah because you’re also spending you’re also spending a significant it’s not like a cocktail that you can easily send back and say can you just update it or like easily gulp down really quickly yeah or easily gulp down yeah you have like you’ve got at least one and a half bathroom trips that are coming from that from that bottle of wine I mean why did I say yeah as if I understood actually what you were just saying one and a half bathroom trips what do you mean you’re gonna drink a whole bottle of wine you got to go to the bathroom at least one and a half times oh what happens in the half time honestly it was like a you gotta go but you can hold it you’re able to hold it the second time you know so that’s what that is hey I’m glad that you said something yeah I think that we approached it from a nice angle that they weren’t talking behind our backs about no you you guys were talking about uh behind their backs but yeah not the other way around yeah I think you did the right thing I think you did the right thing okay and now you’ve learned your lesson no natural wine no natural wines I’m gonna have to state that when I’m ordering a bottle of wine I’m not open to new things something like that I think uh I think I think that’ll go all right well thanks for listening to this episode of best friends back all right you could catch brand new episodes every Friday make sure to follow so you don’t miss an episode if you’re enjoying the podcast leave us a review you can follow at mythical pods on Tick Tock for Clips to share with family and friends you can follow me everywhere at Nadine and Stevie everywhere at evw Levine and of course you can hear me every Monday through Friday on Good Mythical Morning with Rhett and Link at youtube.com good mythical morning I’ll see you there I’ll see you soon Hello friends I just wanted to remind you that Trevor talks too much a very special podcast featuring our own Trevor from mythical kitchen is back with season two so go to wherever you’re listening to me talk right now and you get your podcasts and listen to Trevor talks too much highly recommend highly recommend highly recommend highly recommend highly recommend