(snazzy music) – Welcome to Ear Biscuits, the podcast where two lifelong friends talk about life for a long time. – I’m Rhett and I’m Link. This week at the round table of dim lighting, It’s my turn to share more about my spiritual journey. It being the one year anniversary, or give or take, of each of us sharing about our spiritual journeys from, – Yeah. – Up into being in our early forties. – Course. – I’m about to hit mid forties, man. – Yeah, yeah you are. – I think when you hit 44, that’s mid. – Let’s just call it 45. But of course, I assume you listened to Rhett last week. If you didn’t, I encourage you to do that. So last week, I, again, I appreciate you opening up, and processing how things are going for you. At the point of recording this, that one’s not even out yet. So, I mean, I’m anticipating lots of response and conversations. So thanks for being a part of that, using EarBiscuits. Yeah, so now it’s my turn to be on the hot seat. Definitely feeling nerves associated with this, because I mean unlike, you said last week, unlike most podcasts, we put a lot more forethought into this. And like either, I mean, this is a rewarding process. It’s been, I mean, it’s been challenging for me to pull together what I wanted to say. We’ve talked about it some. I’ve had conversations with Christy, as well. So if you wanna go to some emotional places and explore my spiritual journey as it stands over this past year, buckle up. But if you just wanna hear me talk about my cat, well I’ll just do that next week. (laughing) So you can just wait until next week. But if I’ll warn you, if you’re a cat lover, you might not wanna listen to that one either. I don’t know. I don’t know, we’ll see. – Well, no, that’s, I’m sure they will. – But that one, you know, it’ll get a little lighter, but I we’ll see where this one goes. – Well, and before you get started you know, I think it’s significant that we get sort of keyed up before we talk about these things. And I think there’s, we’re not gonna really, we’re not gonna spend any time really talking about that or exploring that. But I do think that it is in the least, or in part, related to just how big of a part of our lives all of this stuff was. And, you know, and so and how significant it was. And I think if you’re a Christian, or a former Christian, or somewhere in between, you can probably relate to that, this being the most important thing in your life. And so when you get really open and vulnerable about it, it can stir some things in ways that, talking about your cat might not. (laughing) – I wouldn’t call it my cat, but okay. We’ll wait until next week for that. But yeah, I’ve journaled down the things that I wanna share. And so let’s just get into it. Like I said, a year ago or so, I shared my story of spiritual deconstruction from an evangelical Christian, to a hopeful agnostic, is what I called it at the time. I don’t really refer to that label a lot, but that’s, I still think that applies. And that story, cover my entire life. You know, there were snapshots from age 10 and on, right. But today I’m only covering the last year. So it’s a different thing. I mean, it’s been a crazy year, and it’s been a tough one for everybody on this planet. Of course, to varying degrees, but it’s been a crazy year. And over this past year, I was blindsided by a number of difficult challenges that I would have, as an evangelical Christian, have labeled as test of faith. Meaning something happens in your life, and your response to it reveals what you truly and deeply believe. I didn’t think of the things that I’m gonna share today in that way as they were happening. And I think that’s kind of part of what I wanna share and how I did process those things. But, you know, in kind of a compare and contrast, I realized that’s how my former self would see the things I went through as test of faith. To put it even more specifically, in the past, as a Christian, I shuddered at the thought of facing suffering, facing fear, and facing loss without the peace that accompanied a very specific believe about Jesus. – I think that something that a lot of people can relate to. I know for me, when you think about the potential of not having God in your life in the same way, or not having that relationship with Jesus, in the way that you said you did in the past, you’re like, even in transition, I know you talked to me a lot about this. As we were sort of transitioning, there was this fear of is something horrible gonna happen, and I won’t be able to make it through, because I’ve always had this idea that you’d retreat into sort of, you have refuge in the Lord, you know, as you’re going through those things. – And that is what we, that was our practice. And that was our experience. And that is where we found a source of strength in our relationships with Christ. So, you know, having that be a defining aspect of any test I faced in my life, yeah, it was, I shuddered at the thought of that that being gone. Yet here I was, over this past year facing suffering, facing fear, facing loss, after having moved on from that faith. – And that’s what really keeps a lot of people from walking away, frankly. – So I just wanna share three experiences from this past year. But before I do that, I just wanna go ahead and say that, I’m in a really good place right now, spiritually. I don’t look back on, on my former life as an evangelical, and wish that I was still there. You know, if you think, if you go back and listen to my story, there’s lots of things that you know, that I appreciate and that I value from that experience. It’s by no means all negative. And I’ve, you know I already talked about that. But I, you know as I go through these things, I just don’t, you know, I just kinda wanna head off at the pass that like, “Oh, I feel sorry for you.” And, you know, I don’t wanna elicit pity, because that’s not my point at all. I’m gonna be very honest about how I process these things and the emotional component and all of that. But I think it’s the fact that you know, I found a way forward that alleviated those fears that my former self had. So yeah, I don’t look back and wish I was there. I’m happy, but I am also restless. I don’t know if that’s exactly the right word, because I mean it in only a good way. But I’m restless in the sense that I’d like to think that my spirit, or whatever you wanna call it within myself, is staying open to where I’m headed. Even though that ultimate destination is unknown to me. (chuckles) But I’m doing my best, to be honest with myself, and honest with those that love me, and honest right now with you listening. And I feel hopeful, and I’m at peace with my direction. And today is another day on that journey for me. And a big component of that, is it being an active, spiritual journey, that I’m on. And I’m grateful to be doing this particular podcast to kind of put another stake in the ground to say, a year later, this is how I’m processing it. And this is where I’m at but it’s, I mean, I’m sure this will get heavy, but it’s overall, I just wanted to, you know, I wanna bookend it with this message that is a positive message for me, that I’m in a good place. – And I’m glad you’re saying that, because, you know I think that, as you contrast the way that we approach these kinds of things, right, and the way that we approached our original stories, and the way I’m sure we’re gonna approach the sort of the follow-up, is you kind of explore things through your personal experience and story. And you’re also a verbal processor. You also, you know, you aren’t quite as sure of yourself, and that’s, I mean, I think that is a positive thing for you, ultimately. I can be a little too confident, and a little too sure in the things that I’m saying, and a lot of times it’ll just piss people off. But sometimes when you’re being very vulnerable and honest about where you’re at, and the fact that you know, you’re just being honest in your uncertainty. I think a lot of people are sort of like, “Oh, poor Link.” And that’s not at all what you’ve meant to communicate. And so I’m glad you’re saying that up front, because I know you, and I know where you’re at spiritually, and I know that it’s not a place to be pitied. – Absolutely not. That’s exactly what I’m trying to get at. And I think that when you mention, you know my style you know, it’s not as assertive, and maybe when it comes to certain things I don’t assert confidence in certain things that I believe, especially when, what I’m asserting is embracing uncertainty. But I also think that a little bit of that, well I don’t know how much of it, but a factor that kinda drives that in me is kind of reacting to, I just have a negative reaction to when people assert something that I just don’t believe you can know with 100% certainty, it bothers me. So it’s not my instinct to do that. You know, I share my experience, draw your own conclusions. Or just, you know another thing I’m learning is that you can truly listen to somebody, you can truly empathize with somebody. And it’s not always about making a decision or a judgment about them. That’s something that I realized that I thought, for some reason I thought I had to operate that way. – Well, that’s the world that we come from. When you’re in a system, when you encounter things, you have to file them into your system. And so we’ve kind of been trained for a lifetime, of systematizing people into an ideology, and we’re trying really hard to not continue to so that. – There’s a way to be impacted by empathetically, interacting with somebody that’s not, that judgment doesn’t have to be a component of it. And you know, which brings me to the fact that like, a year later, yeah, I don’t have any more answers than I had a year ago. (chuckles) But I’ll tell you, I do believe that my soul is richer because I’ve made some progress, in knowing, and loving myself more. And that’s through therapy, through introspection, through conversations. And I’m beginning to experience, how understanding and accepting myself has expanded my capacity to love other people. That’s where I felt like I’ve needed to focus a lot of my energy for the past year, in terms of my spiritual journey. And, you know, I feel like, for Christy and I, as a couple, just to kind of talk about the two of us for a little bit. This journey is really stretching us. And I mean, really good stretching is really not comfortable. (chuckles) You know, sometimes it hurts a little, it needs to hurt in the right way, so that ultimately it’s strengthening, and definitely the experiences that we’re going through together, and the spiritual components of that included are strengthening our bond. So, we’re good on that front too. (chuckles) Christy really helped me figure out what I wanted to say today. And, you know, as I was kind of prepping it, you know, I texted her yesterday, and I sent something to her, and I just also told her how much I love us. And she replied and said, “I love us too. I want you to feel freedom and embrace this journey that you are on.” Heart emoji. And it meant so much you know, to have her support, and to say, “Be free, embrace what you’re going through.” You know, it’s not, you’re not a victim of something. You know this is a journey to be embraced, to be celebrated and you know, but I’m just so grateful that she can, she loves me in that way, and that she can, she can send me that text, you know. I don’t think I’d be able to share these things publicly right now, without her support. I know I wouldn’t. And people also wonder about our kids in this process. So, you know, I wanna talk about that just a little bit too. Honestly, I mean, there are times when the fear creeps back in that maybe we’ve done them a disservice, by not raising them in the church. But I don’t believe that, because I see them, I know their hearts. I mean, while there may be things they missed out on, there are many pitfalls, they were spared. And you know, I look at Lily, I look at Lincoln, I look at Lando, and I know them. You know, they’re wholehearted, wonderful humans. And I admire them so much for who they are. And I’m proud of them. And I don’t regret the, I don’t regret the trajectory of our lives, and you know, how we parented them. And I stand by it overall. You know, I’m very flawed. And, but I think it’s important that they could articulate those flaws. – Well, I know, I think, one of the things that both of us have encountered post-deconstruction as a dad, is within the church, within the evangelical church, there is an expectation that the dad, the father, is the spiritual leader of the household. – Yeah. Based on a lot of things, mostly just patriarchy. But, and there’s an expectation that not only would the dad be a leader, but the dad has the answers. – Right. – Right, and the dad sets the tone, sets the pace, he leads his family. And I mean- – And he’s held accountable to that. – Well, but also as a Christian man, as Christian dad, there’s this expectation that you’ll have the answers, and that there’s very few things that you won’t have answers to. And there is a playbook for everything that your kids, or your wife might encounter. First of all, a lot of pressure. But I think in my case, there was a lot of sort of just playing along with that, being like I don’t really have the answers to this, but I can point you to an answer that we sort of collectively as a community come up with. And I think one of the biggest things as a father, is when there is true uncertainty, there are situations that do not have an answer, and being able to say, “I don’t know.” I don’t know if there’s a satisfactory answer to this question that you have. I don’t know if there’s a satisfactory solution to this situation, but we can figure it out together. And that’s, if you’ve had something, if you had a system, and you no longer have the system, you can feel that fear that you’re talking about. It’s like, man, they’re going through this right now. And if I just, I’m not sure it’s the right answer, but it is an answer that I could be getting from my former belief system. And now I’m just saying, “I don’t know.” And you feel a little bit, you feel like a failure a little bit. – Yeah, I mean, Lily’s turning 18, she’s leaving the house, go off to college, and you know being adult. But, and you know everything I said a few seconds ago still stands, but I have noticed that there’s times when I would not, I think I would opt to not say something because it would be, the instinct is in the lack of an answer, it’s hard to make something a teachable moment when what you’re conveying is embracing uncertainty and the truth of that. And it’s, you know, I think some things will come clear as I continue talking about- – It would come true too. (laughing) – Come true. (laughing) As I, you know, will come clear about, what I continue to wrestle with from my past, and how it impacts my point of view on myself and my relationships with Christy and the kids, and other people. But, you know, I’m trying to take a more active effort to have conversations, open-ended conversations where these topics are not taboo, just because you don’t have an answer doesn’t make it taboo. It doesn’t make you something to be ashamed of. You know, it’s like, this is real, and let’s not be afraid to talk about it openly, as a family. So I mean, just to complete that point, when I look at my relationship with myself, my relationship with Christy and with our kids, I am so grateful for what we have, and I’m relieved, (chuckles) honestly. Because like we said, there was a time, for most of my life, in fact, when I firmly believed that those relationships could not flourish and weather life storms apart from Jesus. So, you know, with all that we shared last year, and I still struggle with giving myself permission to outright say this, but if there is no God, I’m okay with that. In fact, I’m even good with that. I’m not sayin’ I prefer that, but I’m sayin’ I’m even good with it. I have accepted that as a real possibility, and I think I’m at peace with it. Maybe there’s a loving God, and I’m open and hopeful that there is, but I’m also good if I never find out. Because there’s just no guarantee that I will find out. In the meantime part of my spiritual practice is processing and shedding, the guilt and baggage of judgment that I’ve carried for the majority of my life. Maybe my point of view on these things that I’ve stated, you know maybe they sound like harsh statements. I think about people who love me who would hear me say those things and I’m like, “Well, maybe I could have taken the edge off of that.” And maybe my perspective will change over time, but that’s where I’m at, I don’t wanna be embarrassed or ashamed of it. Or like I said, I wanna shed the guilt and baggage of judgment that comes along with me saying that out loud to who knows how many people. I mean that’s just a big part of my personal work right now, because I mean, at 42, I hopefully have even more life to live, then I’ve already lived. – Ah, so at least 84. – Yeah, I’m aimin’ for 85. (chuckles) – Well, that was, I mean, I don’t know, that would be currently beyond the average life expectancy of an American male. – Keep that to yourself. – But I have to believe that that’ll keep, I think it’s actually has reversed recently. And livin’ in California and breathing in all this smog, you’re probably not doing yourself, I’m just sayin’, ah you’ll be lucky to get to 84. – Well, okay. Given that it seems that half of my life is over, I’m gonna live the life that I have, and I’m wanna embrace it wholeheartedly. You know, I wanna move forward embracing the now that I have been gifted. – Yeah. – And I can say that I’ve been gifted, even though I don’t know even if there’s a giver, but I hope there is. (chuckles) So I’m ready to share some of my experiences, three of them over the past year that have helped define what my spiritual journey looks like up to this point. Like I said, you know, for me to say it’s been a difficult year. You know, I can keep acknowledging how people have it more difficult, or how it’s been a difficult year for so many people, but you know, just, it has been a long and difficult year. And there was a pretty lengthy buildup to my nanny passing away. You know, I mentioned that as one of my most meaningful moments of last year. Of course that’s my mom’s mom. And she had a sense that her life was winding down. So I was the one to help her get her will in order. And it wasn’t just one conversation, you know it’s like the whole process, including getting her to a lawyer and talking. Everything that went along with it, it’s just a number of months, you know. And it’s all happening over the phone. And, (deep sighing) you know, she loved me her whole life. And in the end I just couldn’t be there, to just hug her. And, you know, it’s so much of our communication was just about me helping her find peace with this outlying thing associated with her will, which I, you know I was very glad to do. But it’s, you know, it’s I felt frustrated, and I felt helpless, and I felt sad. You know, it’s just, you find yourself, it’s different when you’re just having a phone call and you find yourself having, “Oh, this is the last phone call.” You know, I’m saying something to her that is different because you’re not there. And then you’re not there for the family afterward. I mean, it was tough you know. And you know of course I wanted to hope that she was in heaven. All of me believes there is no hell, but a big part of me believes that there might not be a heaven either. We just cease to exist. But I mean that’s, you know okay. That’s what I, hold that thought, I hold that belief in my mind, but it gets difficult to wrestle with when you’ve got one more loved one on the other side, right. But, it didn’t change the conclusions I’ve already come to. You know, I think of a fear of death, and a desire for eternal life for my loved ones, and myself is very appealing, but it’s not, you know that’s not the foundation for what I believe. It’s like a benefit, I felt like. So, it’s I don’t know- – Although it might be the foundation for religion in general. – Hm. – Just. – It just didn’t change my conclusions. I didn’t find myself as I was hurting, and I was wrestling with that, or I was, you know I was writing her eulogy, to give to somebody else to read. You know, it was all of those feelings. It didn’t lead to doubt, honestly. It was just you know, of course she’s gonna die. Of course, we’re all gonna die. It’s just, you know, it was kind of this, I have these conclusions, and I have this pain, and I’m aware that these things will happen. (chuckles) So… I’m left with I don’t know, you know. Do I know, can I assert where she is? Can I give that comfort? Can I comfort myself or my loved ones in that way? I don’t know, who really does? So I celebrated her life as much as I could. And I talked to my family and processed it as much as I could. And I tried to embrace the grief to make it as real as possible without being there. And accept something we all know, that death is a part of life. And that this is a part of my spiritual exercise. I couldn’t have predicted, beforehand that that’s how I would have interacted with all of it. And, you know, there’ll be another way when I eventually do get to go home, and, you know help get everything in order, that’s still around at the house and stuff, I’m sure there’ll be another wave of this, but. – Well, the fact is is that you, again, whatever you can say in a eulogy about your grandmother that doesn’t come from a place rooted in Christian faith, is not going to be as emotionally satisfying. Uncertainty is not as emotionally satisfying as this certain hope that where you can tell everybody there, “Hey she’s in a better place.” Like, let’s just be honest. That is the easiest thing to say, right? That is the easiest, most comforting thing to say to a group of grieving people, is that this person is in a better place. – I do think that they’re, and, you know, I’m still thinking a lot about this. There’s in terms of, you know, my relationship with death. And I do think that there is, I do have hope that there’s more, there’s a way to embrace it, and not shy away from it to find beauty in it, that is different. That’s not something that I’m at a place to present, but it’s something that I guess maybe ironically, I’m hopeful about. – Well, I don’t think culturally, or as a species we’re there yet, honestly, right? – Culturally as- – Meaning that the cultural convention of a faith-based funeral is still the standard even for people who aren’t really faith-based in a lot of ways, right? It’s another conversation. (snickers) – I guess, to move on to another experience. I alluded to this as well, at the end of the year. But Christy and I walked through a really difficult time together, over many months this past year. And anxiety is not someone’s fault. And it affects more than just the one who’s directly experiencin’ it. It was a tough stretch, pun intended. There were many sleepless nights, and there was a lot of fear. There were times when I felt completely disoriented, and again, powerless and scared. I mean, you know, because you and Jessie were there for us, as well as some other close friends. But throughout all of it, I didn’t really ever think about praying. Now as an aside, I just wanna acknowledge that even now as I say that you know, I think it comes out like a confession, you know. It’s like, I didn’t even think about praying. And I’m not saying that I wish I did. I’m making an observation and I wanna unpack it. But like for the second I’m unpacking my emotions associated with even saying it, and the fact that it comes across as a confession. I feel ashamed. I feel shame. It just wells up from inside of me. Making that statement, I feel the feelings of failure, or being a bad person. But here’s what I believe about that. I believe that that is my inner critic talking, a version of my former self, and he is not being fair, or kind, or correct. If I don’t believe in the power of prayer, why should I feel guilty about not praying? And so I, you know, I process that, and I say, “Come on, just come on Link, just be free, be free of this.” And I mean, if it were only that easy, if it was like, incanting some sort of a spell, or like something to release this spell, maybe is a better analogy. But I mean, you know this, we talk about it. Sometimes we joke about it, which I think is healthy, but I feel guilty a lot. It’s not really related. I mean, in this instance, it’s not related to like specific nitpicky things. like, Oh, I’m guilty because I did that, like an OCD fixation on individual actions. You know, it’s more, I think my guilt comes from this place of like a lingering cloud of guilt that shows up, and hangs around, and is associated with the overall idea of me leaving my faith. It’s the pity of my previous self feeling sorry for me, and also judging the now me. But I’m learning that I don’t have to listen to that voice. So I can say, you know what? Christy and I walked through an extremely challenging period of time, and you know, I didn’t pray. And it wasn’t this stubborn, you know, I’ve said what I believe, and now I got to believe it, and I’m not gonna pray. You know, there was no internal dialogue about that. I just- – You weren’t tempted- – I wasn’t- – You weren’t even tempted to. – I wasn’t wrestling with reverse doubt, or like, I didn’t you know, like cover my bases. Like I was at my wits end. I mean, we were having conversations, that like I would hear what I was saying to you, and it was just, I didn’t know what I meant. You know I haven’t observed, I haven’t been in that situation before. I don’t know that, I mean, you tell me, have you ever seen me or Christy at a place where it was like, I don’t know, and it seems like a different person like at kind of a loss. – You were incapacitated. – Right. – Yeah. – And, you know, I think that is a moment where, you know it cinematically speaking where the character would drop to their knees and say, “Oh God, I’m sorry that I forsook you.” You know like a moment of repentance or something, or just a moment of desperate prayer, you know. Like if, you have the cinematic bargaining with God. – Well, and I think that’s because that’s the narrative that we believe, and I think- – Yeah, it’ll cut, you’ll hit rock bottom. – And I think it’s what a lot of people have said about us. It’s just like, okay, well those boys are riding high right now, but you know the moment that the bottom drops out from one of them, some tragedy happens, is like that’s the moment that they’ll turn around and come back to God. And I- – And I just don’t- – I don’t wanna skip over the inner voice thing, because I if you’re not gonna come back to it, because I think that’s really significant for so many people, the former voice. And especially as somebody who struggles, with, I don’t necessarily, I struggle with a lot of shame. I’m the king of shame, but guilt is not so much my thing. But for somebody who struggles with guilt, being a part of a religious system, especially in our experience, evangelical Christianity, it’s like steroids for the guilty, right. It’s high octane. And of course, I understand that like, I remember being an evangelical, and saying that like, “Listen, no, we’re all about grace. It’s the Catholics, or the Jews. They’re the ones who are all about works. And they’re the ones who are guilt-ridden, but we live in the freedom that comes with a grace-based relationship with Christ.” And it’s like a fun thing to say, but in reality, there’s still so much pressure, and there’s still so much expectation. My wife is an expert at talking about this, about what it’s like to be somebody with OCD in the midst of a religious system. But one of the things that, so I also do the same thing. I have that former self who’s constantly judging me. I think it was one of the reasons that I can talk about these things in a way, that connects with people who are still in the church, because I have a really, really strong connection with my former self. But the change in relationship, and this is something that has come through therapy. My therapist has helped me see this, is that what you’re talking about is looking at that former self, and saying that former self is wrong. That former self is being judgmental. That former self is not being kind. And I don’t have to listen to that former self. I think one additional step that has been really helpful for me is having sympathy. – Yes, well I would say- – Or having empathy- – I would say empathy. – Having empathy for that former self. – Well, yeah and absolutely. And so I’m glad you, you teed that up, because that is something that I’m working on. It’s like, okay, I know that this inner critic, this inner voice, this former self, is harsh. But I don’t have to respond that way, because I can also see that there’s, his motive is to protect me. It’s a part of myself, yes from my past, but it’s still a part of who I am, that’s trying to protect me from something. But it’s like, okay, you know what? I appreciate what you’re trying to do here. And I know you’re just trying to help me and protect me. And, you know, there is work for me to say, okay protect me from what, and let’s get into those specifics. But to have an empathetic response, that’s like, what you know what? Thank you, but I don’t have to take action on this, and you are not all of me. So yeah, that is something that in therapy, I’m seeing. And I might hit on it a little bit, more with this third experience. But yeah, you’re exactly right, and I’m glad you brought that up. So just to get back to the trial, or however you wanna put it, like what Christy and I went through. And I mean, I don’t wanna, I’m not gonna share all the details of it at this point. I think, you know, a lot of that’s her story to tell, and it’s, or maybe our story to tell together at some point. Who knows, but for now, you know I’ll just say that it was, Christy who was dealing with a debilitating level of anxiety, you know with all the circumstances that are happening. Like a certain level of health anxiety that then just became, yeah, it just became debilitating. And there were panic attacks, and there was, you know, it’s not as simple as Googling how to deal with a panic attack, or how to deal with health anxiety. You know, it’s like you find yourself in a place where it’s okay. The natural tendency is a downward spiral here, that then we’ve gotta start, find the right people to talk to, and the right things to do, to back back out of this, or really, I would say to walk through it, to a healthier place. But as far as it relates to my spiritual journey, just kind of processing how I did respond to it. Yeah, I didn’t pray to, or curse God. I just, I mean, I just responded practically. You know, I did everything that I could. I just, I mean when I look back on it, I would say that I met the situation with love. I felt as if I was acting on instinct at the time. But I realize now that it was, I mean it was simply love. I love Christy with everything that I’ve got. And it was then that I, I mean I really knew it at those points, you know. And we leaned on friends and professionals, to help us, and they did, and we got through it. And I mean, it’s not, they’re residual effects and there’s some long-term things that we deal with associated with it, and that we’re more ready for now. But when the worst of it was behind us, I was extremely grateful. But I didn’t thank God per se. I didn’t take credit. And I’ll quiet that voice that tells me, that I should feel guilty for not giving God the glory, so to speak. I mean, maybe somebody would listen to our description to that inner voice and say that that’s God, or that’s the Holy Spirit. And, you know, but I don’t know, but I do not think so. You know, because of the outcome of what that voice is telling me, the application of it, it’s just not, that’s not it. – Well, and as someone who is also married to someone who has had a lifelong struggle with anxiety, in a struggle with anxiety that has been debilitating at times, and has happened inside the church, and, you know, with great faith, and then outside of the church with no faith in that system. There is, in my experience, there is a tendency to, because you have the ability to pray. And because you do have the ability to, when you’re at your wits end, to sort of give it over to the Lord, to invite God into it, sometimes that leads to excluding or bypassing the practical steps that would actually be helpful. – Yeah, we had to drill in very deeply and specifically with professionals involved, with therapist and psychiatrist and things that, you know, there’s no embarrassment associated with saying that. And in the same way that if you had a physical condition, if you had, you know, that you would drill in medically, and you would do everything you could, and you can just resort. – But there are people. There are people within the church- – To only a spiritual exercise. – Like prayer. – There are people within the church. – Like prayer. – And we weren’t, we don’t come from a tradition that is like anti-science and anti, I mean little anti-science, but not like anti-doctor necessarily. I mean, it’s kind of becoming more anti-doctor, with COVID and everything. But there is this, there is a little bit of a, hmm, oh you didn’t, God didn’t do this for you. You kinda had to go to the world to get your problem solved. And there’s some people, depending on what tradition they’re in, that are that live in debilitating mental illness, because they cannot- – Specifically- – Get out of the system. – Especially mental illness, because those type of things are the unseen problems and challenges, are the ones that can be easily written off with a prayer or a proverb, or you know, some teaching. And I, you know, having benefited from therapist, and psychiatrist, and psychological treatment, it’s just not the, you know, it doesn’t pinpoint the specific problems, you know. I think that it requires a professional to do that. It’s not just something that you can apply just to general platitudes. – And I’ll admit something, that this probably get me in trouble, but I’m used to it. Now, when we seek treatment from professionals, whether they be therapist, psychologist, psychiatrist, either for ourselves, or for other people that we know who are going through things. I actually, at this point in my life, I try to steer away from people who have a faith-based approach, or who really bring a Christian worldview into their treatment again, because my experience is that it’s like filling in the gap with something that isn’t actually going to be helpful. It’s like, let’s set that aside. Let’s set that uncertain, I don’t know if praying does anything, giving it to God may do nothing. Let’s take the practical, tested approach to this problem so we can actually solve it. And again, I’m not saying that having a Christian worldview is a bad thing. I’m just saying when somebody is, if I’ve got a cancer doctor, who’s working on me, I don’t want that doctor to say, “You know what? I’m doing this operation on you, but I’m really praying that it goes well.” Or do I just want him to say, “I’m going to do it well, and it’s all on me to do it well.” Again, I mean- – I well I don’t, yeah. I’m sure that there’s pastors who, if people come to them from their congregation with problems, they’ll say, “With this particular challenge that you’re sharing with me, you need to see a psychiatrist, a psychologist, a therapist, you know.” But that wasn’t our experience when we were growing up. And you wouldn’t even, even if you had to go to one of those places, you would just use, you would say, I went to counseling. You would use a code word, and it would be stigmatized. And it would be- – There’s like a lotta prayer-based counseling, and that kind of thing. That’s acceptable. You can do that, but if it’s just the practical, scientific stuff, then I don’t know about that. That’s kind of the attitude that we had. – So, I’ll move to the third and final experience that I wanted to share today. And that’s… and there’s, yeah the details of this are not my story to tell. So, you know, forgive me for, or don’t forgive me, just I know you understand that the way that I’m telling this, and the details I’m putting in and leaving out. My mom is currently facing what may be the most difficult trial of her entire life. Every day, all year long, for years now. And again, we have the COVID of at all. I’m her only child. I don’t know if you could tell I was an only child. – (snickers) Choke on it. – And (chuckles) yeah, and I’ve not been able to be with her. And I try my best to get better at talking on the phone, and to understand her situation, and assess what needs to be done, and to help her. But I’m stuck on the opposite coast because of the pandemic. And so I, you know, I worry about her. Again, it’s that feeling of helplessness, and, you know, I feel bad for going weeks, in between talking to her. But when I do talk to her, she’s always happy to hear my voice, and she doesn’t wanna dump her problems on me, but what else is there to talk about, because this has become her entire life, you know? So we talk about how she’s doing, and I try to really hear her and offer encouragement, and help think through things. And it’s become, you know like I just realized how difficult, and the toll this was also taking on me, you know. And we were on the phone recently, and she relayed a conversation that she had had with someone else. And I’m not gonna tell you the story, because this story was meant for me. And you know what? When she told me the conversations she had, she didn’t build it up, or maybe she didn’t even realize the poignancy of it. But again, I’m not sharing, I don’t wanna share her situation. But what she shared was, it was heartbreaking, and it was honest, and it was beautiful, and it was tragic, and it was inspiring, and it stopped me dead in my tracks. And in this moment I realized, not only was I being there for my mom, but even with all that she was going through, she was also still being there for me. And the specifics of her story, and what she went through, and was telling me about, it painted this perfect picture of love. And she showed me a type of love to aspire to. And I you know, I’ve thought a lot about it since then, and I’ve realized that this is my spiritual practice. Love will be my guide. You know, I’m gonna make up my mind to be introspective, to not miss moments like that, as much as I can. And I will not tear myself apart from the inside. I will love myself, and I will love others as much as I can. And I will live the life that I have. And… that’s my spiritual practice. At a point when, and so I don’t know. I don’t know how people will process that, as glib, or elegant or, you know (chuckles) whatever. But for me, you know, when you boil something down to something like that, there’s so much better just to convey that it actually means to me, in terms of, I think part of it is validating that I still have a spiritual, I’m still on a spiritual journey. You know, I’m not defined by what I’m not anymore. I’m alive, you know, I’ve got, and I’ve this moment, we’re sharing this moment. And there’s so much beauty that we can enjoy and appreciate, or we can miss. And, I’m sure that includes everything that I’ve talked about. Like, I didn’t talk about these things to pull at heartstrings and just to prove anything. It was, these things are going to happen. Who am, I’m not, you know, tragedy suffering, loss, death. These are not things that I want to try my best to avoid. You know, who am I to expect for these things not to happen to me and people that I love? Things happen. And giving myself permission to say, You know what, this is not only my life, but this is my spiritual practice. And… I’m good with it. I have a level of peace at this point, and I’m moving forward, hopefully. – Well, love being your guide as, you know, 60’s, peace, and love, as it sounds, it is actually very practical, and actually a lot more informative than I would have ever thought. You know, ’cause I- – I just, yeah. ‘Cause I thought – totally on the same page. I thought it couldn’t be enough. Like, yeah, I mean, you say it can be enough, but- – To navigate a situation, a life situation that is a very specific challenge, kind of like the ones that you’ve shared here, there is sort of the Christian way to do those things, right? I would argue that in many ways, the Christian way is a way of love, right? You will navigate it in a way of love. You know it’s not a super simple thing. There’s plenty of places where everyone, within the church, and outside of the church fails in that. But only thing that I’m saying is that going into a complex life situation where you don’t have the rule book, the literal rule book of the Bible to guide you, and saying “I’m gonna let love guide me through this.” I think it’s actually really, really effective, and informative than I would have ever imagined it being. – That’s what, and I’m saying, that’s what I’m taking from these experiences. I mean, that’s my takeaway, is that like, it just, you know, we, I’m still here. This is not about me. (quietly laughing) I mean, we normally end in Ear Biscuit with a recommendation. You know, I’m not gonna, instead of telling you something to buy or watch, this week. You know, I just wanted to acknowledge that, another thing that’s very clear to me, and as I look back on these experiences that I could not have made it through any of those without the support of people who love me, my friends, my family. And so, I mean, maybe it’s, as a result of a spiritual struggle, maybe it’s a result of some other struggle. But if you know, I just wanna encourage you. If you need help, find someone you trust, someone who loves you no matter what. And if it feels like a risk, take the risk, and ask for help. You know, I know that it really needs to be somebody that you trust, who loves you no matter what. We were talking about like, do we have a specific, I wish we had a resource that would connect everybody with somebody who loves them unconditionally. And I think that’s just, that’s how I feel about it, but- – That’s the extent- – And we will- – Of my recommendation. – We will do some research on that. What I’ll add to that, is that I know that there are people listening who are still in the church, or a religious system of some kind, and not all, listen, again, the point of what we are telling our stories is not to move people out of the church. But there are some people in a situation, and you know that it is unhealthy. And you know that you shouldn’t be there, but you’re alone. And you know that if you go talk to anybody in your family, anybody, who’s a close friend. They’re all in, they’re all in it. And you know the kind of answers you’re gonna get, and you feel stuck, you feel alone. That’s, you know, me and Link, we had each other. We had our wives, we had close friends. We actually you know, had close Christian friends who were not judgmental and we can process, and we can talk openly about these things, as we processed all of it. You may not have that. But so first of all, just our hearts go out to you, because we know that there are people in that situation. What we can say is that there is somebody out there. There is somebody out there, that you can connect with, that you can confide in. And- – Don’t give up looking. – Don’t give up the search, don’t give up the search. And don’t settle for being in a place that you know is ultimately unhealthy for you. – Thanks for listening. I’m so grateful that we have this open-hearted community of support and, (soft, mellow music) lots of love right back at ya’. #EarBiscuits. – Let’s keep talking. – [Link] To watch more Ear Biscuits, click on the playlist on the right. – [Rhett] To watch the previous episode of Ear Biscuits, click on the playlist to the left. – [Link] And don’t forget to click on the circular icon to subscribe. – [Rhett] If you prefer to listen to this podcast, it’s available on all your favorite podcast platforms. Thanks for being your Mythical best. (snazzy drumming music) (tones beeping)