(cheerful music) – Welcome to “Ear Biscuits,” the podcast, where two lifelong friends talk about life for a long time. I’m Link. – And I’m Rhett. This week at the Round Table of Dim Lighting we are talking about sibling dynamics and personality tropes specifically– – Hm mm. – the whole birth order thing. We actually put a prompt out to you saying exactly that, “Let’s talk sibling dynamics “and personality tropes on Ear Biscuits.” Tell us how being the oldest, youngest, middle or only child influenced who you are. Feel free to dish dirt on your parents and siblings too. – Yeah! So we’re gonna group this conversation by the type of sibling that they said they were, and you know, we’ll we’ll get in where we fit in. But I think we should probably just go ahead and establish what we are. – Yeah, well, between the two of us we’d represent two different things. And between our families, we represent all the categories. – Everything! – I’m a younger child– – You’re one of– – youngest sibling of two. – you have one other – Older brother. – one older brother. – Cole! – His name is Coal. – Not spelled like the rock. It’s not a rock. – It was originally, but then he changed it out of embarrassment. Just kidding. (Link chuckling) It’s a family name, C-O-L-E. – Age difference is? – The age difference is about three years. But school, was… – He was a senior in high school when you were a freshmen. – Would you call that three years? – I will call that three years. – Three years. Yeah– – Supposed to be in high school together. – And so about two and a half years in age and about three years in school. – Yeah. – I’m an only child. (Rhett guffaws) Yeah– – Surprise, surprise. – The one (Link chuckles) and the only, the special one, you know… If it ain’t broke, don’t have more kids. I’m like just pristine and a perfect little baby. – Just like an only child would say. – Yeah, I know, of course I’m totally joking. I’ve got maybe, maybe there’s some bitterness that I’m gonna uncover once we get to discussing my experience. I did have half-siblings for a while. Well I had a half, not a half sister, I had a stepsister in the house for like grade school and she was in high school. And then by the time I was in third grade-ish mom got a divorce and it was just me and mom. She was not, she had, I mean, she might’ve had prospects to make more babies. We haven’t discussed this. – Prospects? – But, I mean… – I remember a few. – She had some boyfriends. – I remember a few boyfriends. (Links chuckles) – The brown, you remember the brownie points boyfriend? – Brownie points boyfriend. – We always talk about Brownie Points-guy. – He’s stuck out the most. – She was dating him. – Walt? – Yeah, his name was Walt! (Rhett crowing) – I don’t know how I remember that! – By that time I was, I must’ve been 16 because I would come home– – You were younger than that when they started dating. – I do remember being 16 and driving home and mom wasn’t home because her car wasn’t under the car port, but his car was there, and he was sitting– – Sitting on the stoop. – on the the stoop. I’m pretty sure he was drinking a beer. – He had a six pack. – Yeah. (Rhett guffaws) Yeah, I remember this story. I wasn’t there. I just remember my mom telling me, she was like, “Now Link got home and Walt was sitting on the stoop, “drinking beer, he had a whole six pack.” That’s, I just remember– – I mean, that’s just the start of it. – And I was like, whoa! – A nice Netflix and chill is what he’s thinking. – In our world, it was like, he may be dangerous. (Rhett laughing) You know what I’m saying? That’s how I thought about it. – And I was, like, it was weird for me. It wasn’t like, my mom wanted to make sure that I was okay with her dating somebody. Walt was a fine guy. You know, there was nothing wrong with the guy. He was, I seem to remember him a bit of a tool. Like, I mean, yes, there was a time when he dropped us off at the party and on the way there my mom was in the car too, but it was me and you being dropped off at probably what was like an eighth grade or ninth ninth grade make-out party– – Yeah, the best. – and he started talking about brownie points– – Hm mm. – And I– – Still didn’t really understand– – Don’t know what– – but I’m pretty sure I got some that night. You got some brownie points? – I racked up on brownie points. – She also dated, this is just sort of me dishing who my mom dated– – This has nothing to do– – Before she got, – With what we’re gonna be talking about. – Happily remarried. – Listen, can you just table that conversation? – Let’s table that… – Because you’ve got three children– – But I’m basically an only child and then I got three children. – So you got older, middle and younger and I’ve got two boys. – That’s why we had three- – Older and younger— – Just to see what it was like. – I knew about the middle child tropes. And so we didn’t have a middle child on purpose. – No, I think you forgot to have a middle child. – And our kids are… – That’s what happens with the middle children. – Five years… – Forgotten. – So five years apart. Your kids are like two years apart each, right? – Lando’s a little bit more. Lando’s 11, Lily’s 18 Lincoln, 16. – Whoa, so like five. So you got like two and then five? – Yeah. – Okay. Anyway, so before we get into some of the responses, we did a little boopity-boop research. I do wanna just, (Link vocalizing) just up top here, a lot of the responses that we’re going to give are going to fall into, what you may already have in your mind as a trope, or as what you think is established science about some of these stereotypes of middle child, you know, the different sibling order, but just to kinda get all that out of the way without getting into it… If you take all the studies and try to condense them down to just some sort of predictable guidelines, or understanding of sibling order– – You guessed it, it’s indeterminate. – It’s inconclusive. – Lots of conflicting data. – And I’m not saying that it doesn’t exist and I’m not saying that sibling order doesn’t have an impact on who you are, but most of the studies seem to indicate that once you become an adult, these things, other things about your personality kind of went out and it isn’t what order you were born in that determines who you’re gonna be for the rest of your life. I don’t know if that’s comforting, or upsetting to you, based on how you’ve thought about your life. – Of course, once you get into the specific dynamics of the specific people that you grew up with, that has a tremendous impact on who you are as a person, but just to boil it down to birth order is, you know, it oversimplifies things and science is not gonna– – And I think– – Peg it down. – I actually, I’m resistant to this even though this is what the science shows or doesn’t show– – Yeah, I know. – I’m resistant to it because I’ve always thought about my children and, well really not as much my kids. I think my kids kinda go against this in some ways, but me and my brother, I think hit some of those tropes. And I’ve always thought that me compared to you hit some of the tropes of grew up with kids, grew up with siblings, grew up as an only child. – Yeah. – I’ve always attributed some of the things about you and some of the things about me and our differences to that. And maybe I just been wrong all along? – Let’s start with oldest and work our way down that way. You know, we’re saving the best for last. And I’m talking about me, the only child. – Exactly. (Link chuckles) – Starting with Jada. That’s Jada Leigh Frost. “Oh, isn’t being the oldest horrible.” – Hm? – “The trial kid.” They test it all out on us then the younger ones have it easier. This might be the most universal trope. – I think the next one we’re gonna read, vies for that position. But yeah, I mean, certainly when Lily came along, you know, you got this first child, you wanna do everything right. And especially… You know there’s people here having babies, like– – Here on earth? – Kevin @mythical– – Oh, here @mythical. – Kevin’s wife just had a baby. – Yeah. – They’re doing great. And they’re at such a, you know, I was just reflecting, they’re at such a different point in their lives than we were when we started having. – Full of hope. – But they’re older, you know? Kevin’s older, he’s wiser. He can, you know, he’s… I anticipate he’s not gonna wig out in the way that I did when I would like. I still felt kinda like a newlywed. – Well, because– – Couple of years of marriage– – Just few years before– – 23 years old. – You were a teenager!. – Yeah! – It was a few years removed from teenage hood. – So definitely with us as young, young parents of a first and eventually oldest child, is that you wanna get everything right. There was all these rules and systems in place in the Neal-house for Lily. And I think that we were trying a lot out on her that then, yeah, it absolutely, everything that we experienced with Lily, impacted what we pivoted to with Lincoln, or with Lando. I mean, you know, it’s… I’m trying to think of an example that doesn’t have to do with punishing the kids, but you go from… I mean, is it… I brought up spanking on Good Mythical Morning. I guess that’s really controversial. – I guess, (Rhett chuckles) – But– – And it is. Today it is, yes. – And Lando was never spanked. Lily was not spanked a lot, but it was something that was taught and that was part of a system. And, you know, it was… There were certain ways that you could go about it that were, you know, not abusive, I think was what was going on in our minds. I’m not saying that spanking across the board is abusive. I’m still not gonna say that because my experience with her was that it was… I felt like we were doing the right thing. We changed our minds over the next two kids. Well, by the time we got to Lando, really, we changed our minds. But Lily didn’t need a lot of spanking anyway. So, it wasn’t like we really wrestled with it. We just kinda moved on and it wasn’t. We moved to timeouts pretty quickly even with Lily. – I will say that– – But with timeout, timeouts didn’t work with Lincoln and then with Lando they did. – Culturally where we, not just in North Carolina, but again, the culture that we were a part of in North Carolina, it was, you know, “Spare the rod spoil the child” right. And so basically everyone was, again, we’re talking spanking on the bottom. We’re limiting it to that. But then there was this sort of– – An emotion, like not– – Not out anger. – Not out of anger. – Right. – Basically I honestly, the way that I was brought up, my brother and I were both spanked. It was… Again, my wife is the one who’s done the research and the reading on all this stuff. Our wives are the one– – Right. – That do all of the reading about parenting and most of the parenting, let’s just be honest. – Yeah. – But, and Jessie has strong feelings about this. Basically saying that she feels she’s completely sort of flipped her perspective on the role of spanking. Now I… But just to say that I think that there’s definitely a spectrum of how it can be administered, right? We’re not here to defend it and we’re not here. Why don’t you– – I’m sorry I got you into this. – You brought it up again and it’s such a controversial thing that I just don’t even want to, – But it’s good illustration – Talk about it. – of like, if you got your first child and she gets spanked and then your third child never gets spanked. I mean, it is a good example of like how things change and you learn and – Well, and we were– – I’m sorry, but if you’re the first child, in one way or another in every way, you inform what happens with every other child moving forward. – I mean, I guess what I can say is– – That seems like it sucks, to me. – If the same thing was true in our household and Locke was the one who was, you know. We were undergoing, sort of, our own personal evolution. Our worldview was being turned completely upside down as our kids grew up, which is a whole different, a whole different thing. – That’s true. – And studies will be done about kids in this generation (Rhett chuckles) because there are so many people whose worldviews are changing right now. But setting that aside, if you just isolate that, the way that we punished Locke, both the frequency, the intensity was definitely, we were more lenient with Shepard, but it wasn’t just because he was a younger child, it was because we were changing the way that we were thinking about parenting. And I can say that thus far– – And discipline specifically. – There doesn’t seem to be a notable difference between the two of them in that particular. It’s more determined by their disposition and their personality and less the way that we are interacting with them. That’s another thing that I think has shifted for me over time. And I do think that, the science shows this is that, one of the ideas from the culture that we came from is that the parents have… The weight of responsibility, like your kids, I mean, literally, just Bible verses that talk about if you train a child up in the way that they should go, they will not depart from it when they become an adult. And so, there’s actually a lot of shame in a lot of religious circles, when your kid departs from that, or your kid ends up being a hellion when they grow up, that means that you did something wrong. I’m kinda coming to the conclusion that, yes, parenting is very important, but a lot of it is based on what you model, not what you say and also a lot based on their disposition. So, that’s a little bit of an aside. – And we were very focused on, even at the beginning, based on the books that we were reading. I remember there was a book called, “Shepherding a Child’s Heart,” which I thought was very helpful. I don’t remember the specifics of it now, so I’m not recommending it now. It was so long ago, you know, 17, 16 years ago. But being focused on not just getting a kid to robotically respond and do what we want the kid to do, but understand our children’s hearts and who they are and how to shepherd their heart into blossoming as a loving individual and, you, – Yeah. – a well-developed… And probably, yeah, at certain times, it boils down to just well-mannered (Link chuckles) kid. So– – But this wasn’t. I gotta say– – I can’t think of another trial, some other things that I changed. – This wasn’t true for me as a child though. It’s almost like… I mean, my dad was so consistent. He was so consistent. And my mom. Both of them were so consistent– – Hm mm. – In what they thought and how they parented from the beginning until we left. And I don’t, I never perceived a noticeable change between the way that I was treated and the way that my brother was treated. Now– – Hmm? So you don’t think Cole would say he was the trial and then they adjusted it for you? – That may have been happening, but I never sensed it. – Right. – Looking back at it. I don’t have any tangible examples of that, but for my kids, it’s more of a 100% yes. The leniency that we operate with towards Shepard is definitely higher than what we did with Locke and it’s based less on, I mean, I think it’s a combination of just like, you don’t have so much attention now there’s two of them. I can only devote so much attention to them. But also it’s just, this didn’t seem to work that well. He didn’t listen to all. He didn’t listen. (Rhett chuckles) He didn’t do all this stuff that we asked him to do. So, why don’t we just let the second one just be a little bit more free. – @Takingcareofmomma tweeted back at us as an oldest child, “That stereotype of the first born being more cautious “and law abiding, totally true in my experience. “I would even go so far as to say that I did a terrible job “of breaking in my parents before my sister got old enough “to break the rules.” Yeah, like I said, we had lots of rules and parameters for Lily. And I think that, you know, grow up in that world and you’re like, okay, this is… You know, she responded to it. So, she became the reliable rule-follower that then, kind of, as Lincoln and Lando entered the scene, she was… Sometimes we’d treat her like a third adult. A lot of first, oldest children responded and said that they’re the third parent, the babysitter all the time. Being given substantial responsibility to take care of the siblings and to follow those rules and to be reliable and counted on is something that I– – Well, and the negative aspect of that– – It just practically, it plays out that way. – But the negative aspect of that is the bossiness, right? Like I say, – Yeah. – I seem to remember Lily going through the bossy, older sister phase – Hm mm. – which definitely seems like she’s well out of that– at this point. – Yeah. Every everything that we said to her, then she was like, “Oh, here’s a younger kid in the house,” “now I can say it to Lincoln,” you know, “I can…” And can you fault her? It’s like, she’s reinforcing the things that we would have said to Lincoln too– – Well, we’ve had to say. I can’t tell you how many times we’ve had to say… This is not quite as common as it was, maybe even a year ago, but for several years Jessie would have to say, “Locke, I’m parenting right now.” You know, (Link chuckles) because Shepherd would be getting in trouble for something, she would be saying something, I would be saying something and then Locke was like, “Yeah and,” and he’s like, he gets in on it, right? (Link chuckles) So, no, no, no, that’s not your role. Your role is not to parent. But specifically, we’re talking about with this whole rule-follower thing, again, I think this is where it comes down to your specific personality and we’re going to, we keep promising it. We’re going to do the Enneagram episode, right, But– – Yes. – So kids are different (Rhett chuckles) and recognizing, like the fact that Locke, as I’ve said before, is more of a challenger. So, when he sees a rule, he questions the rule. It’s not just the rule exists, you follow it. The rule exists, his immediate response is, “Why does that rule exist?” “Is that rule actually good?” Does that rule intend what it is, what it says that it’s intending to prevent, right? Whereas Shepherd is more just like, I wouldn’t say he’s a rule follower, but I wouldn’t say that he’s a rule breaker either. I would say that he’s kinda just his own person and if the rules suit him, he’ll follow them and if they don’t, he won’t. (Rhett chuckles) But again, this doesn’t seem to be true with my kids. I wouldn’t say this one’s a rule follower, this one’s not. And– – Right. – Maybe it’s a little bit, I mean, how would you perceive me and my brother growing up? You might perceive this a little bit? – I mean, the consistency of discipline that you’re talking about does resonate. I mean, yeah, we would get into trouble and you would get a punishment and then they would call my mom and then tell her and then if I was involved to the same degree, I would just get the same punishment. But if they didn’t have the conversation, I wouldn’t get any punishment at all. So I knew that you were getting this. There were always repercussions for you. So. And yeah, so we would break the rules together, but I would, you know, we’d have to read some momentum and you would have to overcome a lot– – But versus me and my brother– – But you weren’t rebellious. If you’re like, “Oh Cole is,” – I think you’re the same. I mean, I think his personality is probably more of a rule follower, but I think because of the discipline in your home, your actions were similar. – Yeah, I think we’re kinda the same in this regard. I think that compared to– – It’s more about them, the parents– than it is about– – Yeah, I would say compared with– – your personalities. – the general population as kids, both of us were, what you could call a rule-follower. Now, we may have been mischievous, right. – Yeah. – Those do some prank calls, or whatever. Let’s listen to, in my brother’s case, it’s like, I’m gonna get the most explicit gangster rap cassettes available and then let my brother and his best friend listen to ’em. – Yeah. But still, am I going to do the things that the adults in my life expect, at least externally? Yes. Am I gonna be known as a rebel kid? No. And that was the same for both of us. So this trope didn’t really hold true. – Let’s move on to the middle child before we forget. – Okay. – I was tempted to skip middle children entirely and then at the very end realize it, as a joke and then just end the episode, but let’s not do that. Let’s talk about middle children. But first let’s sell that T-shirt. – Yeah. This is the official Cotton Candy Randy Savage. – Ooh yeah, Daddies. – I don’t think that we can say that it is. It is not Randy Savage. – No, it’s– – It’s Cotton Candy, Randy, but it’s definitely inspired by the spirit of Randy Savage, – Yes. – which is out there somewhere. – And which inspires us constantly. Go to mythical.com to get that and all of your apparel needs met. They also have an Amazon store with different stuff, amazon.com/mythical. – Mythical. All right, so let’s move to youngest child. (Rhett and Link chuckle) You get it? See, I still did it. All right, middle child. Cyrus Cole responded, “I’m number six of nine kids.” That still happens? Parents still have like nine kids these days? – It could be a farm. – It must be a farm. – But, no, but now there’s with factory farming, families don’t. So this is not a farm. – What is it? – I dunno. – I dunno. Parents want audience. (Rhett laughs) I mean, when Christy and I first got married and like, we were friends with families that had a lot of kids and we just thought that was. We’d go visit them, Christy would keep babysit the kids sometimes and it would just seem so exciting. I mean, we thought we were gonna have like six kids. That was crazy. That’s crazy talk. – Well, you wised up. It only took three– – Yeah. – for you to wise up. – It really, I mean– – It took two for me. – Well, after the 2nd one we had quite a negotiation before making a 3rd happen. Because I got to name him Lando, he exists. I had to reiterate (Rhett chuckles) that story to him the other day. I don’t know why he didn’t know that. I was like, you know– – “You wouldn’t be here “if your name wasn’t Lando. “Never complain about it.” – “Your mom agreed to “letting me name the third child if it was a boy “and then we went for it.” When she said, “Okay, I will agree to Lando as a name.” He likes his name though. Cyrus says, “I’m number six of nine kids. “Being in the middle left the impression on me, “of being easily forgotten “a lot.” – I think that might just be because you’re one of nine children. I mean, of course they’re gonna forget– – This is a trope though. “Left at stores, church, et cetera and my favorite, “not getting picked up from soccer practice multiple times.” “No cell phone. “It was quite traumatizing as a kid and took years to heal.” Dang, Cyrus, thanks for sharing. I’m sorry that you were traumatized by being left alone at soccer practice multiple times. Yeah, you got the… But in general, this is the thing. Middle child just gets lost in the mix. Not necessarily literally– – Literally. – Lincoln, the middle child in our home is you know, he’s quiet. He’s not gonna be the first to come into a room and just take over the conversation. Whereas both Lily and Lando will do that, you know. I’m here and I’m assuming nothing was happening until I showed up. Or… (Link chuckles) But Lincoln, you realize he’s been there on the couch for a while. He kinda slips in (Rhett chuckles) and slips out. Especially over this past year, there’s a lot of slipping into his room and into his world of video games and connecting with his friends– – Right. – via his headset and screen. But I’ve noticed that he does this thing where… Well, I’m actually getting to the next one, so, I’ll wait on that. But I’m trying to. Have we left him anywhere? Not physically. – I mean, I think that, again, I can’t speak to this because this doesn’t exist in my family, either the one I came from, or the one that I currently have. But I am interested in if you think that this Theresa’s comment, @yellowsun11, “I’m number four of five kids “and I’m definitely a people pleaser “and try to keep the peace.” “My default is to suppress my feelings and desires “as unimportant and instead defer to my siblings’ “and others’ wishes.” “Especially noticeable and annoying “when trying to decide what’s for dinner.” – Well with Lincoln, the one exception is, what’s for dinner. – Strong opinion about that. – That is one thing that he’s gonna be the first to suggest, “Hey, what are we gonna have for dinner?” “I got an idea.” “We need to get hot chicken from this place.” “We need to get this type of chicken from this place,” or, “Hot chicken from this other place,” it’s like, he’s– – Hmm. – Obsessed with that. – But do you feel like– – But other than food– – He’s ever been a peacekeeper between Lily and Lando? – He is… He doesn’t settle arguments between the two of them, but what he does is, he doesn’t ruffle feathers. He knows how to work with within me and Christy’s demands. Like if we’re like, Clean your room, or, “Hey.” His job is to take out the trash and to move the trash cans back and if I tell him to do it, he’s learned. Whenever I have a plan, or even if it’s something like, “Hey you know what, this afternoon, “I think we’re gonna play a board game as a family,” he’s learned that the best thing to do is just to say yes. If I have one of these type of ideas, even though it may not be what he wants to do, he knows that I’m so excited about it and that the right answer. He knows what the right answer is and he will say it, but then behind the scenes then practically, he’ll do, he can kind of finesse it to get some extra screen time out of it. Or, I’m like, “Hey we’re gonna play.” He’s in there on his screen, I go in there and I’m like, “Hey, we’re gonna play a board game in an hour.” And he’s like, “Okay.” I’m like… It’s just so refreshing ’cause the other two they’re like there’s always a negotiation, well, I got this plan, or I’m this and I’m that. I’m sure he has things that he would rather be doing and wants to do but he knows the right answer, it makes it a lot easier to then move forward. And then by the way, an hour from now, they’re probably gonna be wrapped up in something else and it’ll end up being two hours, three hours and we may not play at all. And I’ll just be in here, “You can come get me “if you wanna do it.” But he has this zoomed-out perspective that like… The conflict and the drama is just not for him, you know? So, that’s, sometimes what will be having a dramatic moment as a family and you look up and he’ll be gone. It’s just like, it’s just not– worth it. – And that could just be, that could just be his disposition. – It could be. – I mean both of my kids again– – But it is a trope kinda thing. – If I open the door and say, and I could be like, “We’re going to have “a circus at our house and everything “that you’ve ever wanted will be available to you.” They’ll be like, “Well, I’ve got plans.” Like, all you gotta do is have a suggestion as to something that you wanna do and my kids – Right. – will respond with why they don’t wanna do it. It’s almost like, again,– – I again– – it’s a knee-jerk response. – Two outta three, that’s the experienced in my home too. – So, yeah, it could be. But you don’t see him settling arguments between Lily and Lando? – No, I see– – Being the negotiator? – No, what see him doing is just like smiling and kinda laughing at it. Like shaking his head. – Right. He’s always like, “I’m, not in this fray.” It’s not… You know, he prides himself on living low-stress life, staying on the fringe of things, you know? – Well, I mean, I would say– – Go with the flow. – What I would have said, not just about middle children, but definitely, like in Cyrus’s case with being six of nine kids, I have to believe, and again, and we’re gonna jump around a little bit here because I’m gonna get your responses and only child to this because my… The one thing that makes sense to me, and again, I don’t know what the science says about this, it just seems logical, is that the larger the family, the more you had to learn to be deferential and accommodating to people in your space. It might be you had, just something as simple as, if you shared a room with someone, growing up, you are going to be… The way that you defer to people and the way that you see your personal space and the way that you see your items and getting your way, is going to be different than somebody who was by themselves. And I’ve always thought that that’s why you are really particular about a lot of things. And when things– – Oh, yeah. When people try to take in a different direction, it’s a big adjustment because you didn’t have to accommodate anybody. And I had to do that a little bit with having one brother, but somebody like Cyrus, who’s from a family of nine, you could talk that guy into anything, right? – Probably. – I mean, (Rhett chuckles) in other words– – We’re gonna test it, Cyrus. – Flexibility. I would think that the size of your family, not in every case, has to have some correlation to your personal flexibility. – Yeah, asserting your own preferences, or not, or deferring. Consideration. – And expect. And sort of having an expectation. Like if your preferences always won, then you’re going to have a bigger problem with your preferences not winning, as an adult. Right or wrong? – Yeah, I think so ’cause it’s, yeah, it’s a shock to the system when you… Yeah, absolutely. – Right. – I don’t know if there was… When I left home and went off to college and we became roommates that would have been the first test of like, oh, I’m living in the same room with somebody. I don’t recall us having arguments about that at that point. – I feel like the reason that it’s worked mostly well, it might, I mean, there may be like things that are mildly annoying to me, but I feel like the reason that most of that has. In fact, we were talking to Mike McCarthy the other day and we were talking about the fact that we were college roommates and he was like, “Oh, and you’re still friends?” That’s the amazing thing is that you lived together during college. That’s a huge test of friendship. – Yeah. – I think a big part of it is most of the things that you are particular about in a living space, I kinda just don’t care. Like, how cold is it in here? I don’t know. I don’t really care. Make it the temperature that you want, you what I’m saying. I don’t have an equally strong opinion about a lot of those things. So, I would just say, “Where should this poster be? “Where should this couch be?” – You had assertive parents and you had an older brother and I had, I had myself. – Right and so I just tend to be like, all right, Link’s gonna have an opinion about where this couch is and et cetera and I don’t have an opinion about it and so why didn’t he just make the decision about this. – Yeah, @hannahbatch said, “I’m an only child “and my fiance is a middle child of four and it’s perfect. “I’m used to getting my way “and he’s used to letting other people do what they want.” So in our dynamic, it does work. I mean, if you were a firstborn, that would be an interesting test. – If we were both only children– – Oh, gosh. If we were both only children– – we wouldn’t be sitting at this table– – I don’t think that. – I don’t think there’ll be. There will be no test at all. – And I tend to be really. I tend to be a very deferential person when it comes to a whole slew of like, you know, what things look like, what things feel like, living situation, bathroom. I tend to be very deferential about all that stuff. I’m…. But there are things that I care a whole lot about but it tends to be a pretty narrow spectrum of things that I care a whole lot about and I kinda put all my energy into those things. You know what I’m saying? I don’t even know exactly what those things are, but I think that’s one of the reasons that this has not been a lasting source of conflict for us. – Yeah. We’re in a fortunate birth order situation here. Let’s go to youngest children. This is you. So, we’re onto you. @RachelBlack said, “I’m the youngest out of my sister and I “and I get away with a lot more, “but also don’t have the high expectations put on me “which can be both good and bad.” – I mean, we kind of talked about this a little bit. For me this was not the case because my parents were super consistent. It is kind of the case with our kids, but I think it’s a combination of factors, but without a doubt. Like what Shepherd is allowed to watch, what Shepherd is allowed to say– – Yeah. – What he’s allowed to do, is significantly more lenient than… I mean, you know, again, we come from a conservative evangelical background. Early on, when Locke was really little, and he wanted to play with Pokemon cards, Jessie had questions about that because of the evolution aspect of Pokemon cards. I mean that’s how ingrained that idea was. Is like, “I don’t know about that “because I know that those things evolve.” – Right. (Rhett laughs) Just to give you a little slice of where we come from. – That one’s more extreme than the Harry Potter example, which was also true. It’s like, Harry Potter really took off before we were having kids, but we were too old to be into it ourselves. But eventually Lily got into it, but it wasn’t. I mean, Lando is reading Harry Potter now and has been for a year or so, but when Lily was, you know, nine, 10, 11 years old, there was no Harry Potter in our house. – Right. Because of the witchcraft stuff? – And because I wasn’t into it and it was a residual of that witchcraft stuff that was just like, practically speaking, we’re not gonna get you– – But now– – into that stuff– – if I went into Shepard’s room and he was reading “The Adventures of Satan and his Demons,” I’d be like, “Are you into that?” (Rhett guffaws) – Right. – I’m just saying I’ve completely, again, I’m not scared of any of that stuff. I don’t believe that it’s a reality, so. In other words, like– – And we’re not gonna push our kids towards something by trying to, by setting up the goals for them to kick against. – Yeah. – I think that’s another part of our philosophy that has shifted. Is, you know, don’t let fear-drive set up walls. – Yeah. – You know, it’s more like let’s have open conversations about things and if there are legitimate dangers associated with things, then let’s really get into the details and discuss it. So, it’s not about just a blind rule, or all of a sudden there’s a wall here and it’s like, no questions asked. – Well, yeah and to clarify, I’m using the example of “The Adventures of Satan and his Demons” as a purposely inflammatory thing that I know is going to upset some people, because, you know, I like to do that, but it’s kind of like – He does not have that book? – He does not have that book. It was just a funny example. But even if you think about, let’s just talk about the Lil Nas X-thing for a second and the Satanic panic that’s happening around that. I do think that, you know, rewind 10 years and if my kid. And neither one of my kids would consider themselves much of a Lil Nas X fan, but they’re both aware of the Montero video and the controversy that it’s causing. There was a time where I would have been afraid to just let them watch that and for us to have a conversation about it. Now, I understand that the whole point of the video is to cause the panic and cause that reaction for branding purposes. That’s what Lil Nas X was doing from the very beginning and a bunch of people took the bait and got very upset about it. I mean, it was hook, line and sinker, they just took the bait and got upset about the video and the shoes that had blood in them, right. A lot of people. And I think that now it’s just like, hey, can’t we step back and just. It isn’t like, “Oh, kids you can do and say “whatever you want to.” It’s not that there are no rules. It’s that the things that are important and the things that are actually going to be potentially harmful and dangerous to them, let’s have real meaningful conversations about them. And let’s kind of say that, hey all these things that we thought might be dangerous and harmful, actually aren’t and we can still have a conversation about why some people see it that way, so. – So with our youngest kids, there’s a lot more leniency in our parenting because, because we’re (Link chuckles) evolving. Our perspectives are evolving and there’s so much that you wanna protect your kids from in every single day. There’s so much more out there that they can be exposed to, that could be damaging. So you’ve gotta be even more strategic in choosing the right battles, because if you battle everything, there’s a sense that it just won’t work. – And I think that there– – Nothing will stick. – As a very, very broad generalization, there are two types of kids, right? There are the kids who are going to do the subversive transgressive things and there are kids who are not going to do them. And whether and if you are the kind of kid who is sort of wired to do the transgressive things and you grow up in a really conservative atmosphere, you are going to break bad and you’re going to break bad in a real big way a lot of times. But if you’re a rule-follower when you grow up in that, you might just get out okay and just be a rule-follower for the rest of your life. – Or you might get fixated on it. Like, I mean, with Lando, he’s at a stage right now and we’re figuring it out in what it means and kinda tracing it back and figuring out what our path forward is. But he gets worked up about anything that feels like it’s a violation of a rule. Not like a societal rule, whether it’s a curse word, or even anything that’s offensive, or embarrassing, like a fart– – And again, that’s not something – You know, he’s – that came from you? – No, he’s very sensitive. So for him, it’s like, we’re trying to help him understand a grid through which to interpret what is actually dangerous what does it mean for something to be offensive, you know, or not. So that there’s not unnecessarily tall walls built up around him that keeps him from truly fully experiencing his life. (Link chuckles) – Right. So, another way to say it is– – So, it’s like tearing down walls for him. – We’re both, I would say, to similar degrees, lenient on our youngest kids, but they operate with different levels of personal leniency because they are different kids. – Oh yeah. – Again, I just think it so much has to do with just the disposition of the kid. It’s… I don’t know, the more I parent the more powerless I feel as a parent. (both laugh) I’m just being honest with you. That’s my experience. Now, this aspect of being a younger child really intrigues me. From Paridhi, @mythicanoi, “I’m two years younger than my sister.” “It’s a bittersweet relationship.” “One thing I hate about it is all the competition.” “All my grades are compared to hers.” “All my talents are compared to that of hers.” “Living that way for 18 years, “I have learned to calculate my self-worth “from other people’s achievements.” “It’s not about what I like, or what I can do, “it’s more about, am I better than the other person “because that is the only way my parents will accept me.” – Hmm. – Wow, okay, so we’ve talked a lot about my competitive nature. We had one very infamous podcast where I tried to convince you that you were also competitive. (Link chuckles) – And I won that argument. – Yeah. – So– – That was a joke. – I am, and I think another way to say it is, I definitely come from a performance-based household, right? Now, I am incredibly thankful and grateful for the way my parents raised me and I think I have so much to be thankful for. I do think that they had high expectations for performance. It was like, when you brought home the good grades or you excelled in a sport, you received praise for those kinds of things. So I think that the way that my personality interacted with that is, I was like, “Oh, I see how this game works.” And I turned a lot of things into a game and it’s turned me into a very performance-based person. I’m an Enneagram Three and so I kinda enter into every single arena of life thinking about how I can win, right? How I can come out on top of the situation. Not necessarily at the expense of other people, but just like, I want to be good at this thing that I am now engaging with. I’ve never thought about it being anything to do with birth order, or in comparison to my brother until now. (Rhett chuckles) Until this observation– – So, do you recall, I mean comparing yourself? He was older. I don’t know if basketball is a good example. I know that you guys both were laser focused on basketball. He was on the high school team. You were on the JV team as a freshman, so you were never on the same squad. – One game. – One game? – State playoffs, my freshman year, they pulled me up to varsity and we were on the court in the first round of the state playoffs for like a few plays. – And did you– – Coach, just did it. I think he just did it so it could be like, the McLaughlin boys are on the floor at the same time. – You would you pass it (indiscernible) to each other? I mean, I was a freshmen. I was like, I’d been on JV. I’d been on JV, not starting, by the way, as a freshmen. – Oh, so you just, your pants? – Because Coach Mace, in his great wisdom played Jason Batman before me. – Oh, you’re bitter. (Rhett guffaws) – I am a little bit bitter about that, but Coach Gage was like, “I don’t know what “Coach Mace doing, but I know that you’re good “and we’re gonna bring you up to varsity “in your sophomore year,” which he did, but he also brought me up for the state playoffs. So, yeah, there was a– – You guys will be out in your front yard, on your basketball court, both doing drills. – There was a whole lot of competitiveness between the two of us with whatever we were doing. – Like playing one-on-one? – Playing, one-on-one, playing horse. Some of the most epic, long, extended games of horse in the summertime. One-on-one games that would often end with me crying and running inside because I was the younger one and I was losing most almost all the time maybe till… In high school, every once in a while I might be able to win just ’cause I was getting so tall. – Uh, huh, how tall is Cole? – 6’2″? – Okay. – 6. – Okay, yeah. He might have me by a couple inches. – I think that… Here’s the thing, I think that he also might. I don’t know if he knows what Enneagram he is, but he’s got a lot of, 3 in him. And so, I think that he’s also an achiever and a performer. And so I don’t think, again, I don’t think it was, hey, I’m a performer because I was a younger sibling. I think that maybe both of us are that way because there was, first of all, kind of pre-wired to that and then growing up in a family that kinda reinforced that. So, we both kinda are task and goal-oriented people. But there was a lot of comparison, but I don’t remember, I don’t remember– – Like you didn’t– – My parents saying things like, “Well, your brother “did this so you need to do that.” I don’t remember, I don’t remember that. You guys had a decent relationship. I mean, from my perspective, coming over for sleepovers, I would interact with Cole too. We would listening to music. Yes, he would give me the LL Cool J tape and you would play the Young MC tape and you would both try to tell me who, try to argue which was the coolest and which made me feel awesome. I was like the swing vote here. But he wasn’t– – Was cooler? Young MC? – I think you had the Young MC tape, yeah. And he had a… Kool Moe Dee is cooler. – But you said LL Cool J. – And Kool Moe, he had both of those. You know, he had– – Young MC is not cool. He was cool for a moment, but no longevity. – Yeah. Your brother was right at the time. – Yeah. But my point is when I would come over to a sleepover, there will be interactions, I would experience… You know, I would see you two interact. It’s not like he wouldn’t have anything to do with me, or you, because we were so much younger. You guys had an active relationship. – Yeah. – I mean, there was a friendship component to it, right? You didn’t hate each other. (Link chuckles) – We got into a lot of fights. I would say that… I dunno. I don’t think we were as emotionally available to each other and reliant on each other, as I would say even Locke and Shepard are. And Locke and Shepard have a much larger age difference, which can both exacerbate and help that sort of reliance on one another. I think in their case it has enhanced that emotional connection. But I think that, it wasn’t until we got to be adults, that we would maybe have a conversation that was– – Heavy. – Deeper and kinda went below the surface of like, are we talking. As kids, it was, let’s have a conversation about what we’re doing and how we’re doing it better, how we could do it better. But we’re not gonna have a conversation about how we feel, (Rhett chuckles) you know? But that was kinda also a family thing for us too, right. We didn’t talk a whole lot about feelings in my family. It wasn’t that feelings were bad, it was just that, it wasn’t something that… Talking about feelings was not valued. – But you didn’t. My perception is you didn’t have any buried feelings of animosity towards your brother. – No. – I mean, the fights that you would have as in… He would pick on you about having a crush on somebody and then you would get really angry. And I remember him running back into his room and you had a stick of deodorant in your hand and you threw it at his door – Yeah. – That he just slammed in your face. And I think it made a hole in the door. – I think it may have dented it. Yeah, and I think– – And I was there. – the thing about that is that– – I was like, I’m glad I’m an only child. – He would see– – I don’t wanna get it with deodorant. – He would see that he could get you to join in and that would make me very mad. If he recruited my friends – Embarrassing. to be a part of this thing. Like that’s harder to with than just him doing it. But he would also do this thing where he would… No one really talked about this but… I’ve seen this with Locke and Shepard. Now this is an older, younger thing I’ve seen quite a bit. He would talk about how it was gonna be so difficult for me when I got to, fill-the-blank grade. He’d be like, “When you get to 4th grade, (Link guffaws) “it’s gonna rock your world.” And then I would get to 4th grade and it would be just as fun as 1st grade. I always loved school and never thought that it was difficult, right. And– – So, it never worked? He never scared you? – Every time I would get to the grade, it would be fine. And it became a… (Link chuckles) It became this funny, like, recurring joke in my family. It was, “Well Rhett’s in 7th grade now and “he says it’s okay,” you know? So, Cole definitely would warn me about things. That would happen quite a bit. – I’m super-jealous of not having an older brother. Like when it comes to music is one thing. That’s why I brought that up, is that, or whatever the case. Whether it’s like. My development was stunted, I believe. When you have an older brother, like you’re talking about. You’re observing Cole with his girlfriend and figuring out, kinda between the lines what they’re up to, you know? It might be, you know, you’re gaining confidence that, “I know this guy, I live with this guy. “This guy is ridiculous.” “If he can have a girlfriend, I can have a girlfriend.” You know, it was like, I had so little confidence to even have a girlfriend and I felt like I missed out on that. When it came to music, it was just exposure to cool things that were above my head. Or movies, you know? – Yeah, most of the kids– – Everything– – who end up introducing you to the things that are for older kids, usually have an older brother. – Right. Like Lando watches… He’s got a lot of stipulations about what he’ll allow himself to enjoy. (Rhett chuckles) Again, it’s self-imposed, but for us, it’s like, again we wanna watch things that we enjoy and he’s just along for the ride. Whereas with the younger kids, when the first kids were younger, it was more just catering to things that were age-specific. But by the time you get to three, it’s just like, hey, you’re gonna be stretched a little bit because there’s other people pulling the median age of this whole group up so gotta adapt. – That not a birth order thing, that’s a personality thing because most, well in my experience personally, in my experience with my family and what I would say is my anecdotal evidence, most younger kids are excited about getting to do the things that their older siblings were not allowed to do. Like the idea of getting away with something, watching something that you’re not supposed to watch. Most kids are kinda like, they don’t impose their own standards like Lando does. And so, I just think, again, that’s not of birth order, family dynamic thing. I just think this is how these particular kids are wired. – I wanted to bring up another dynamic. I love when we put out these prompts and then we get back something that wasn’t on our radar. And I’m not talking about if you’re a twin because we’ve made an executive decision that we’re not talking about twins. They creep me out. – Yeah. – And I don’t wanna have nothing to do with ’em. – Speaking of the devil. – So they are– – Twins are the result of the devil’s activity. (Link chuckles) – You guys are out. – Triplets, whoa, don’t get me started on that. – No. Don’t even say the word quadruplets. – Yeah. – Oh my gosh! But I thought this is great. I’ll bundle these three together. If you have a sibling with special needs. Ashleigh tweeted, “I’m the youngest “with just an older brother.” “My brother has autism.” “It’s weird being the youngest by age, “but being treated like the oldest for most things.” “I’m more of a parent than a sister to him.” “Love my brother to death though “and wouldn’t change a thing.” Sophia responded said, “Being the younger sibling “of an autistic child has been tough at times, “but it has also given me compassion and patience “at the times I needed it the most.” And then Caroline responded, “Also younger sibling.” “I’m the youngest, but one of my older brothers is disabled “and has always needed round the clock care. “I’m now a special school teacher and have a passion “for helping disabled students find purpose.” I love the fact that we got these responses to expand this conversation. It’s interesting that all three of them are younger siblings who have an older, special need sibling. Obviously that’s not always the case, but I think it’s a little more unexpected that, okay, as a younger sibling, you’re not getting away with more, you’re having this older sibling experience and it’s… You know, being a part of a family dynamic like this, you learn things that a lot of us never have, I will say, the privilege of learning, expand who you are. I love when they’re all saying, “I wouldn’t change it for the world.” “I’ve grown so much as a person.” “I’ve accessed a level of compassion and patience – Yeah. – “that develops me.” I mean, it’s well, and that’s extremely difficult, but very cool. – I don’t have any personal experience with this, but everyone that I know, who has a family member with special needs, has this increased, sort of, appreciation for life. And I don’t mean like, oh, I’m so glad that I’m not in this situation, but no, like being in the relationship with a person who has special needs has given them a perspective on life that is deeper. And it’s not, you know. You got Caroline saying that she is helping disabled students find purpose. I also think that disabled people help us find purpose. – Hm. – You know what I’m saying? I think that that is a really common theme that you see in people who have members in their families who have special needs is that they have not been. Now, first of all, okay, yes, in lots of cases, maybe there is a burden aspect to it in that this is a lot of work, this is a lot of attention. There’s a lot of sacrifices that are made by parents and by siblings, of course, that’s an aspect. – Sure. – I can only. I can’t imagine because I don’t have that experience. But at the same time I think that there’s a huge blessing that comes with that and I think you’re seeing that in these in these mythical beasts who shared. – As we shift to the only child responses, I’m just very, I’m just struck with how much you are shaped by the environment you grew up in in terms of like, again, it’s not just about birth order, but it’s about additional personalities in your home. And the deeply intimate level of exposure you have to people who are either adults or developing kids at different ages. It’s just, I mean, it has to have an impact on how you develop, at least in the short-term when you’re in that situation, in comparison to being an only child. Being in people’s mess, you know, (Link chuckles) and understanding. You just really get to know people (Link chuckles) when you’re related to them and live with them and living on top of each other. And yeah, so I do feel like I missed out. Bri Shear tweeted, “Growing up being an only child “was awful.” Wow. “I was so lonely. “I always wanted a sibling and constantly annoyed my parents “to give me one.” (Link laughing) So, “Give me a sibling.” Well, you know, there’s a process involved, – Yeah, or a stork. – Bri. I have a– – Did you want this? – I have a lot of… I don’t recall ever asking for a sibling. I mean, you know, my mom… Yeah, ’cause I had the half-sister and then there was the divorce and it was just like, well, it’s like, okay mom is single. It’s just the two of us. It just wasn’t an environment to hope for a sibling. It didn’t seem like that was something that was gonna happen. And there’s also some– – Maybe there are some kids that would have been like, “Aww, I hope she gets married and then I’ll have like… “There’ll be a baby.” Did you ever think? – I don’t think so. Yeah, I don’t think so. – Did you ever hang out with babies and think, “Oh I would like one of these in my house?” – She had a… Her friend, Donna, I remember had this cute little toddler daughter. And I remember being infatuated with her in a younger sister kind of way, like holding the baby, or playing with the toddler. I mean, I had a few baby dolls myself. And I don’t know if that was some sort. I think there was a. It was more of a, it’s so, you know, these babies are so cute, but maybe there was a loneliness thing. I definitely remember being in my room, even when I had the step-sister. That age difference was such that we really didn’t have a relationship. I would be in my room a lot, listening to the radio, or playing with my G.I. Joes, you know, I’ve told this story. I didn’t listen to the radio, or music for the longest time because my stepsister liked music. – Yeah. – I just wanted to assert– – You gotta differentiate yourself– – myself. But yeah and I was certainly lonely and I had this… Sav tweeted at us. S-A-V, siccvanna, “As an only child from Harnett County with a single mom,” What! – What! – Just like me. “I felt like I was socially behind my peers.” “It wasn’t until college that I found and developed “a personality and opinions that were wholly my own.” “I struggle with boundaries of oversharing “and self isolation.” “I often resent not having a sibling to confide in “who could understand exactly where I’m coming from, “without the judgment that a parent might have.” “Even when I know my parents want the best for me, “it’s still a lot of pressure and responsibility “to be a, ‘Good daughter.’” So, I mean, I relate to being socially stunted. I was… You had a voracious appetite to spend the night at other kids’ homes (Link chuckles) of any age. (Link chuckles) – Yeah. – And that’s so strange to me. – Insatiable. – I mean, as close as we became, I know I was very anxious to go spend the night at your house or, other kids’ homes and I rarely did it. I just didn’t. And then whenever I would go over and we would interact with the other kids in the neighborhood, it was a high-anxiety situation for me, looking back on it. I just wasn’t. I wasn’t used to being around a bunch of boisterous, assertive kids. I definitely remember in preschool, being afraid of all the other boys and I would hang out with the girls because at least they were chilled out. – But you also went to preschool, kinda daycare situation earlier than I did. – I did, yeah. I did preschool out here actually, in Thousand Oaks was the first. But yeah, it’s funny because I actually am more on the introverted side as an adult. I’m fine with large groups of people and I can adapt to it and I don’t have a lot of anxiety, it’s just, it’s not my preference. My preference is to be alone, right. But it’s weird that as a kid, my preference was very much like… It’s almost like I got it all out of the way. It was like– – Oh, and you know, and we changed over time in that way too. – Yeah, and so– – It’s not locked in, that’s for sure. – ‘Cause I actually consider you, I mean, I don’t know. You’re kinda borderline introvert, extrovert, I think. – I’m trying to figure out how much this pandemic has influenced that about me because I’m noticing that I really have to make up my mind to get out of my house and my comfort zone and my very small plans. So, I’m in a transition period of getting back out into the world, as a lot of us are. Back in the day, as a kid, I caught up, but I had a lot of catching up to do by high school. – And we’ve talked about this before, but I never perceived any of this. I did not have any perception that you were uncomfortable. I mean, okay, yeah, we went to Camp Caraway and you didn’t take a dump the entire week, (Link chuckles) but I was just like, okay, I mean, it happens. (Link chuckles) – Sometimes doesn’t happen, (both laugh) right? But I don’t remember thinking, I mean, maybe my mom was like, “You know, Link is having a,” she never told me, at least I don’t remember, “Link is really nervous about this week “and you need to help him.” – Right. – I didn’t have any idea that you were not having a great time that I was having. Every single thing that we were doing, I was just like, “Everything about this is awesome.” I tend to think that about everything that I’m experiencing. I tend to think that I inflate it and make it even better than it actually is before and after and during. I don’t know where that comes from, but I never had any indication that you weren’t just having as great of a time as I was having. – Yeah, for me, I mean, if I try to get specific to like, if you have an older sibling who’s gonna hold you down and drip spit from their mouth and dangle it onto your face– – Never hit my face – Again, right. – Had a lot of control. – It never hit your face, so you’re learning, it’s like, this guys all bark, no bite, but for some– – We never punched each other in the face. – You never punched each other in the face? – We did the old Charley horse. That was our go-to. – But for me, you know, I had to learn this out in the, with acquaintances. It’s like, this person is boisterous. I don’t know what they’re up against. Does this kid have a knife? None of the kids had knives, but it… And I don’t recall fixating on knives, but I’m just using an example (Link chuckles) of like, you know, I had to assess these things and come to these experience, how people put on certain ways. And that doesn’t necessarily mean that they can back it up, or that that’s the complete picture of who they are. The more people you live with and grow up with, the more you realize we’re all full of shit and we’re all, you know, we’re all putting on our masks and protecting ourselves. ‘Cause you can see through that in your own home. I just have one person in my home for most of my growing up. So, I just had that data point. – But that might – But the science says that you catch up and you’re okay. – I just don’t know how much, I mean, I think that the whole, I definitely think that the whole feeling like you’re behind and like, “Oh, I’m hearing this for the first time, “because I didn’t have a older brother older sister “to tell me,” that completely makes sense. But the anxiety, or, “I don’t trust this person,” I tend to think that it’s just personality – Personality. – Sure, sure. It has a lot to do with that. I mean, I wonder if my kids asked me “How many kids I should have?” I mean, you know, we’re in such a different world now, but I think my inclination, based on my experience is to not… And I’ll even make a joke with people, sometimes. It goes something like this, “Congratulations on the new baby.” “Go ahead and have another one ’cause you don’t wanna… “Only child, you don’t wanna do that to your kids.” And it’s not really joking. – And then they’re like, “Well, that’s what we were planning on doing.” “We’re in Los Angeles and we just want one child.” – I know. I try not to tell people how many kids to have unless they ask me and no one ever ask me, so I end up– – So you just tell ’em anyway. If I’m pressed to give advice, it would be “Don’t just have one kid.” It’s better, it’s better on everybody to have a second one except for the parents, I think. – So you either don’t have children, or if you’re gonna have children, have two kids? – Yeah. – Or three? – I’m happy that we have three. I can’t imagine having four. I mean, like, he really slipped under the wire there, you know. Barely got through and I’m glad he did, but there’s never ever a point in my mind that I wish I had a fourth kid. – Well, there are– – Never– – There are times– – Christy sometimes seems like she wants a baby again and I’m like, (Link screams) I like have this reaction. – Well, it’s funny – ’cause Jessie, I would say, multiple times a year, maybe she’ll be a day late and then, she’ll be like, “What if I’m pregnant?” She imagines what it would feel like to be pregnant. And thus far it is– – Imagine– – It’s definitely seeming like she’s staring into an abyss of doom when she thinks about it. – Well, you can’t help her with it. Imagining what it would be like to be pregnant is a good exercise because that is not a… That’s a tough experience. Having another child, or having a baby is a thing that somehow some people still think is a great idea. – Well, so there’s definitely nothing about, there’s nothing from Jessie where she’s excited about it. And again, I’m very, very unlikely to make my wife pregnant at this point having had a vasectomy. (Link chuckles) – Not impossible, but very unlikely, right? So for me, it all just boils down to the fact that I’ve always wanted a daughter and my only daughter is Barbara. And I treat her like a little girl and I talk to her about all that she can achieve in anything that she wants and, you know, (Link chuckles) girl power. All my girl power sort of encouragement goes to my dog. And that’s kind of cool in one sense but it’s a little bit sad because Barbara gonna die at some point. Before she gets to be the age where she would go off to college, she’s gonna die. – Yeah, I’m glad that we experienced a daughter and sons. And that dynamic, having a daughter first and like the whole bossiness we talked about, I think that really played into her personality and stuff like that as opposed to having a, if Lincoln was first and Lily was in the middle. Who knows? Everything will be different, maybe. So I think it– – Can I have the last word?- – It all has an impact, but then it doesn’t have this lasting, like deterministic impact. – Well, speaking of twins, we can close with this. (Rhett chuckles) This is where twins are actually really helpful, right. Is, and I’m not talking about like planned twin experiments but there are some sort of just circumstantial experience experiments where twins grow up in different environments for they got separated at birth or whatever. – Hm mm? – I don’t know the results of those. So I’m not going to speak up about it. But that is the only way to know what you just talked about which is like, well, what would Lily be like if she wasn’t the oldest child, is if she had a twin that grew up in a different place or better yet a triplet or a quadruplet. And they all grew up in different places. – Hope nobody comes out of the woodwork. – I mean, the author of the book, “The Sibling Effect, “What the Bonds Among Brothers and Sisters Reveal About Us,” Jeffrey Kluger, said for plenty of us, the only ones left at the end of the dance will be the ones who brung us. The brothers and sisters who have been with us the longest loved us the hardest and by a wide margin, know us the best. So if you, if you’ve got a sibling that you love send them some love today, and if you don’t we’ll send you some love right now. – I do think that that that’s a good point. It’s one thing to have parents who know you and, you know, when you’re like us, and you’ve lived sort of a weird unexpected life and being able to be successful in a medium where we become these public figures that more people know us than we know people, right? Because of our faces being out there and almost everyone who has a perception of who we are has an incorrect perception of who we are. People– – Incomplete– – Like, or don’t like, whatever. Their perception of us is a projection that we have chosen to curate and put on the internet. Now it’s pretty personal. It’s pretty real, but it is a curation, right? If you’re a fan of us, you like us, you don’t like who we are and who we would be if you were to live with us or if you were to have grown up with us. Now having parents who can always ground you and always bring you back down to who you really are, is one thing. It is another thing to have a sibling, to have someone who is in your generation, who knows exactly who you are and sees you for exactly who you are. And I think that that’s something that my brother can do fairly well is when I have a conversation with him… Having a conversation with him is by default a grounding experience, right? He’s not trying to ground me. He’s not trying to bring me down– – Right. – But you just, when you’ve got somebody who knows you apart from the curated public image, and this could be good friends, too. I mean, it’s one of the reasons that people who are like super-famous celebrities who have created sort of cocoon of people-pleasers around them, tend to be these narcissistic monsters. – Hmm. – It’s people who, regardless of what level of, society, they have ascended to, quote unquote, have people who know exactly who they are and will tell them exactly what they think. That’s a healthy thing. And I think that siblings, you need a sibling because of that, I guess you just got me. – Yeah, you’re the closest thing I got. And we use the marriage analogy more than the sibling analogy because when there’s no blood, then if you can end at any moment. – Will there be blood? – We’re not blood related, we will never be blood. – If we punch each other in the face, there might be. – Okay, you can deflect it at this point, (Rhett chuckling) but I’m saying, yeah, there is something different in our relationship than you have with your brother, because of that, the way the bond was determined, like there’s something to the blood of it all. – For sure. – It’s immutable. – Yeah. – And plus, he’s not in your, you know, you’re not working with them every single day. And, we’re not just friends where you got this business that we’re, you know, and this brand and everything that we’re creating together is an extremely connecting and complicating factor in this conversation. But that’s why you have something with Cole and those conversations that, yeah, I guess I don’t have anybody in that sense and you’re not it. – Hmm. – I just don’t have it. – Maybe you can get like a brother, a brother for hire. – I’m okay. I’m good enough, you know… – You can’t recreate that anyway. – I would just rather get my way more often in other senses. – Okay, well– (crosstalk) – Just to play the– – The only child card. – So you’ve got a brother, I’ve got the only child card. Okay, it all evens out. – Let us know what you think. Thank you for those of the hundreds of you, who who interacted with us on Twitter and, um… – You got a wreck? – We’ll keep the conversation going. In the meantime, I do have a wreck and effect, complete left turn, unrelated to everything that we’re talking about. Just a book that I’m reading. It is actually super-relevant right now. I found myself wanting to read this book, because one of the interesting thing that things that has happened as we’re kind of coming out of the pandemic and things are getting back to normal is, “Oh, what do you know?” Mass shootings are a thing again– – Hmm… – In America, right? Sadly, tragically. And there’s all this debate about the Second Amendment. And I just found myself thinking, “You know, I don’t really…” “I hear people say things about the Second Amendment “and I either didn’t pay attention when we talked “about this in class, or I was never taught it.” And so I was like, I’m going to start maybe reading about the history of the Second Amendment and it’s its formulation. So I read this book or I’m like three quarters of the way through it. “The Second Amendment, a Biography,” by Michael Waldman not a brand new book I think it was written in 2014 won some awards is highly regarded as a great comprehensive sort of exploration of the history of the Second Amendment. Both, I started realizing there was so little that I knew and understood about the formation of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I couldn’t, I’m just going to be honest with you, I couldn’t have told you that the Bill of Rights was like the first list of amendments that was added to the constitution after it was written. – I think I could have told you that, but only that. – Like I knew, I couldn’t have told you that and I didn’t know exactly why it happened and what it was a reaction to and what the concerns were at the time. I was pretty ignorant of this. So if you’re also ignorant of it or you just happen to be interested in this kind of thing I recommend, it’s a short read and it’s an easy read. It’s not like super academic or anything. “The Second Amendment, a Biography,” by Michael Waldman just a nice introduction to this which I think then does influence the way that we think about this very divisive and inflamed but very important debate that we’re having in our country as we’re trying to navigate being the country that leads in a lot of things, including by a long shot and by a large margin, people who get killed by gun violence. (relaxing music) – “The Second Amendment, a Biography,” Michael Waldman. All right, y’all, #Ear Biscuits. (upbeat music) To watch more Ear Biscuits, click on the playlist on the right. – To watch the previous episode of Ear Biscuits, click on the playlist to the left. And don’t forget to click on the circular icon to subscribe. If you prefer to listen to this podcast it’s available on all your favorite podcast platforms. Thanks for being your mythical best. (cheerful music concludes)