Welcome to Ear Biscuits, the podcast where two lifelong friends talk about life for a long time, I’m Rhett. And I’m Link. This week at the round table of dim lighting, I’m talking about, I’m just gonna give you a little bit of update on my spiritual journey. My spiritual walk. How’s my walk? How’s your walk, Rhett? Well, I read my Bible last night, you know it’s- Just that’s the thing we used to ask people. It’s like, that was kind of the shorthand when we were in evangelicalism, be like, how’s your walk? How’s your walk with the Lord? I never asked anybody that with that… How’s your walk. With that look on my face, or that accent. Or it would be like, how’s your quiet time? Well, like I told you, I read my Bible last night. Actually, I got three pages into the introduction of the study Bible and fell asleep. The introduction is not a part of the Bible. Well, it is this Bible. It’s the study part, but it’s not the Bible part. No, no, I was actually looking at the back. I was reading the selling points of the Bible, and it was, it said 60% Bible, 40% notes. I was like, okay. That’s a good breakdown. 60, 40? Yeah. So, you fell asleep in the intro, that’s a- You know what? That’s a pretty thick intro. Isn’t it? Just leave it at that, man. That’s why I think I can probably get three, or four pages a night. I think there was 2,500 pages, do the math on that. I’ll be reading for 1,000 years. It’s so interesting that like- A few years. I think, here is one of the things that’s gonna come clear over the course of me kind giving the one year up update of my quest in spirituality. Two year, I think. Well, one year from the last time I did it. Okay, annual. You know you make that joke, and you’re able to laugh at the fact that like, hey, yeah, I’ll take… I’ll just take… If I do it a couple of pages at a night, I’ll make progress. And the way that I would interact with that and I don’t know, it’s like I tense up inside, and I’m like, I have… ‘Cause you turn it into an obligation. Yeah, we can explore it more, but I’m just kind of laying it out there at this point that, yeah, it’s… It’s laying out another plan, or system, or idea against which to measure myself and beat myself up to fall short. Mm. It’s the tendency that I have that I’m… That I described when I originally, when I went back and looked at my journals for the first time we talked about our spiritual deconstruction and I had my episode. I’m reminded of reading my college journals and just how I just felt sorry for that guy because he was just constantly beating himself up. And this is something that I’m still coming to grips with, I’ll come back to it, but the place I wanna start is this past weekend. Just to kinda just give you an update, which is in some ways related, but some ways just a nice story that I wanna tell you. You know this, you had plans this weekend, you were doing some… You were going outta town, and I’m like, well damn, I’m gonna make some plans too. Mm-hmm. It’s like okay- That’s usually how it works. You gonna be gone Friday. you’re gonna be gone Monday. So, I’m like, oh, this is a great opportunity for me, and I realized well in advance that it was over the Valentine weekend. And I was like, this is actually clicking into place because Lily and I have this tradition every year to go out, I take her out on a Valentine’s date. Mm-hmm. And one of the things I was thinking in terms of her being off at college, her being a freshman is that this will be the first year that we won’t be in the same place. We’re not gonna have the opportunity to keep our tradition alive. Unless, I drive and surprise her. Mm-hmm. And now that I have some extra time with this long weekend, I was able to do that. And at first Christy was like, well, should we all go and surprise her? She’s talking about us coming up there and seeing her. Nah, well, it just kinda needs to be just my thing, you know? It’s just like pouring milk. This is just… Important milk? It’s just like pouring milk. Oh, yeah, it’s my thing. This is your thing. Well, yeah, it’s our date. So, if we all surprised her, even if I just went on a date with her. Honestly, the other thing I was thinking was this’ll be like a mini solo trip for me. I’ll be on the road a lot, and then I decided I’m gonna rent a sprinter van. Yeah, baby, getting back in that sprinter van, I’m gonna be camping. I don’t know where I’m gonna end up every night. I’m just a rambler. I’m just a rolling stone and I just love the idea of it. So, I was hankering to hit the road. Like all those country songs when it’s like, well, don’t plan on me being around for long, ’cause I gotta wrap everything up in my bandana and get back on the road, or- That’s not… That’s not really… Yeah, is a little antithetical to your personality. It’s like, “I’m really ready to get home and settle in.” Yeah, yeah. Well that’s the thing about the van is that you take everything with you and no matter where you go, you got everything that you’ve decided that you need. Oh, yeah. Including your high priced blender and all of your smoothie ingredients. Oh, you can just hook up a regular blender and ’cause it has regular power. Yeah, man, it’s got an inverter. It’s got solar panels. It’s got AC if you need it. It’s got heat if you need it. So, you made a smoothie- It’s got a shower- Every morning. With a toilet in it. You could take a dump while taking a shower in the exact same place. I didn’t do that. But you had a smoothie every day? I skipped one day. It’s good to give your body a break. Anyway. I thought it would be like a nice mini solo trip too. This podcast was coming up. It would gimme some more time for reflection. Mm-hmm. And processing. I’m like, well I know I’m a verbal processor, so I might be talking out loud to myself, but no one will know. People driving by on the freeway will think that I’m on a call, if it comes to it. So, the surprise for Lily was Christy ended up talking to her about how she was shipping something to her dorm room. So, she needed to be there on Saturday. We didn’t know exactly when it was gonna show up. So, she was basically trying to say, don’t make plans because there’s something here. And then I, when I talked to her, I was like, we have this tradition. We’re gonna have to do it virtual this year and mom’s shipping something that you… Once you get that, then we’re gonna do our… I have an idea, we’re gonna do a virtual thing. Was the shipping a lie? It was a lie. Oh, wow. It was me that was showing up, I was the package. Okay, well, a little deceptive. Well, yeah, I mean it’s just you can lie for a surprise. Yeah, I agree with that. You and your… Are you a Bible thumper now? Yeah, yeah, I’ve been reading. I read three and a half pages of the Bible- Yeah, you know- Last night and I gotta say, I’m… Lying’s an issue with me now. The truth is very important to me. Yes, I know, Rhett. You and your truth. I’m a big fan of meaning though. Maybe I’ll get back to that, talk about that. Okay, okay. So, actually I got there Friday night, she got out of a class, and then I called her. And I was parked in her parking lot, but I had a backdrop that looked like she couldn’t tell what it was. And I started talking to her- You green screened it? I didn’t green screen it, no, I was like, I was against a white building, but it was just white. You couldn’t tell. Well, did she say, where are you? I said that I was just getting out of a- studio way. I was just getting out- Of a meeting in my car, so I was… As she could tell, I was outdoors in a parking lot. Okay. I couldn’t hide that. And I didn’t wanna show a sprinter van. And, but I was asking her about her exam. And then I was like, “Listen, have you ever gotten a package? ‘Cause mom told you the package is coming tomorrow.” And I start walking up there and she’s like, “Well, typically it comes to the mailbox, but mom’s saying that they’re gonna deliver it to the dorm.” And I’m like, “Yeah, I think, it’s gonna show up somewhere around here.” And I turned around and I showed the sign to her dorm. And she freaked out. Mm-hmm. And then, she came outside and I Face Timed Christy so she could be… Feel she was a part of it, ’cause I felt bad leaving Christy behind. And Lily came out and she was happy to see me. She’s not a big hugger, but I got a big hug. It was nice. So, we went out, went out to dinner that night. Actually, she had already eaten. You see, this is what I do with the women in my life. Yeah, right. I don’t tell them that it’s a date, and then they’ve already eaten dinner. Yeah, it’s a tradition. So, I just ate some tacos while she watched me. And then, the next day was when we had reservations at one of her favorite restaurants had it, had a good time. And then, she had some school work to do, I did a little mount- You just stayed in the van. I did a little mountain biking. My dad’s living in a van right now. Yeah, I thought I was like- He’s somewhere off. He’s somewhere on campus in a van right now. I did not park on campus, but I did tell her. I was like, “It’s kind of like if me and your mom got divorced and this is what it would feel like. When we ate the tacos, I brought them back to the van. I’m eating in the van and she’s watching me. Yeah. And I’m like, “If we got divorced, we’re not gonna get divorced, everything’s going great. Don’t worry about us, but if we did, this is what it would feel like, for your dad to show up and visit you. And you would definitely be the one in the van. I would just be living in a van. Yeah. It would be immaculate, though. It would have everything that I need, I think. At least, I don’t know. I can do it for a long weekend and I could have done it for a few more days, but I don’t know if I could actually live in a van. And I definitely know that I couldn’t be divorced. Like I’m not… Okay. I’m not up for that. And we were having a really good conversation and that first night and there’s something about you can only connect so much over FaceTime, or a phone call. But like in person it was a… We had a really good conversation and I all of a sudden at a very poignant point in the conversation, between eating tacos and talking, maybe shedding a tear. I heard this voice say, “Well, it’s not every day that you see Link Neals parked out in front of your house.” And it was a dude standing right outside of the van, a fan, a mythical beast. You were just parked on the street? I was parked on the street, yeah, near the taco place. Oh. There weren’t no seats. So, I was like, “Hey, we don’t need seats, I have a van.” That was kind of the thing I kept saying, “I have a van.” Yeah, yeah. The door was not open. The window was just kinda cracked a little bit, but so, he was looking through an almost closed window, yelling at me at- Well, it’s not everyday you see Link Neal in a van, in front of your house. And I was like- It’s worth talking about. I was like, “Hey, how you doing?” He was like, “I’m just blown away. Do you mind if I get a picture?” Of your van? And I’m like, “It’s not, it’s actually not a good time.” I gave him that It’s not a good time. You’re with your family. Well, I’m literally in my house. I mean, it’s like, “Hey dude, dude, I’m divorced.” I live in this van. I’m talking to my daughter, who I rarely get to see, and we’re having a conversation. And this is my house and you’re on the outside of it. You’ve just walked up to my house, seen me through my window and just started, like- How did he respond? Yelling at me. Dude, it’s not- When I told him that- It’s not a good time. He said, “You’re right.” Oh, okay. No, I did not say any of that to him. When I said, “It’s not a good time,” he was like, “Okay, yeah. Okay, not a problem.” But it kind of dawned on him, it might not be a good time, yeah. And then, he left. I don’t feel bad about it, it was just a little- No, it wasn’t a good time. This is my home, if the… Your van is your… Is my sanctum. Well, you’d have to get outta your van. I started pulling the shades after that. If I was… If the door was open, or if I was on the outside of the van, that’s different etiquette. Hashtag van life, come on, get on that, get on board here. So, I’m driving back and well, first of all, I was just reflecting on the fact that I was just so grateful that I followed through on the tradition. We had such a good time, like two days and three nights hanging out on and off together. It was awesome. And I texted Lily and I was like, “You know what? I really, I really had a great time. I’m glad we got to keep the tradition going.” I don’t think there’s a lot of dads who can spend an entire weekend with their daughter, and they both enjoy it like we did. Mm. And so, I’m really grateful for that. I’m grateful for the… For the relationship that we have. And she wrote back and said… She said she loved me and said she was so great that I kept the tradition going. And so, it was- She didn’t say on reflection, it wasn’t a good time? Yeah. Yeah, it was so, it was a special weekend and that was the main reason for going, to spend time with her, to surprise her. But every night I would go into the woods, or find a place to set up my van. It’s very easy to do, you just park it. And this is literally the same exact van that you were driving on our trip, that where there was the power- To Death Valley. Power steering issue in Death Valley. Yup. So, that had the recall has been taken care of. They fixed everything. The clamp is on the power steering. And they didn’t blame me. They let me rent it again. Good. But I did have some time every night when I was just by myself camping, and then, on the drive back, obviously there and back just reflecting. Did you have fire? You know what? I ended up… I had that propane fire ring, which I think, would’ve been okay, but I… I never even pulled it out. It was a full moon. Mm. I had some music, I had a full moon. It worked out. Had a nice chair. Was it cold? It wasn’t cold. It was like in the 60s. I mean, it’s been unusually hot. So, it was… Or at that timeframe. So, it was actually perfect, but I downloaded a few books. I actually asked my therapist to recommend a couple of books based on where our conversations are going. I’ll come back to talking about my therapist ’cause that’s kind of wrapped up in this update from me. But I started… I was listening on the way there and on the way back, I was putting the book back on, I was gonna do some more listening. And then I was like, you know what? I’m just gonna be quiet. And I’m just gonna… I’m just gonna reflect. And you know, the thing that came to me and I don’t know, this may not seem revolutionary, or groundbreaking, but at the moment that I thought it, it felt like it was. It’s just not gonna sound like it is. And the realization was, you know what? I’m happy. Huh? I’m happy, period, period. I think that the reason why it feels… It felt so good for me to say that is cause, I mean, first of all, it’s nice to realize that you’re happy. Especially when you have perfectionist… I was gonna say perfectionist tendencies, but it goes deeper than that. And when you’ve got a really pronounced inner critic that is constantly talking in your ear, you start to believe and realize that… And realize that maybe I’ve believed for most of my entire life that I’m not good enough. That there’s always something that could be improved. There’s always a way that something could be better. And ultimately, I think, it for me at least, it’s always gone back to looking inward. So, applying that brutal level of criticism to myself. So, for me to be able to say, you know what? I’m happy, and also to pair with that, I’m still a good person is… Was kind of a powerful moment for me. I felt like… And you notice I said, “Still a good person,” because I think, in light of preparing for this episode more than normal, I was actively thinking about my past and my devotion to the evangelical Jesus. And how it well, I realized that I’m still currently in the process of deconstructing beliefs that have… That I just thought were who I am, but they’re beliefs that from a very early age I adopted. Mm-hmm. As you said in the last episode, by the time you told your deconstruction story, you had decon… It had been many years since you’ve deconverted. It hadn’t been as many for me, but that it had still been years. So, it was an announcement of something that was a long time coming, and it already happened. So, that’s also true of me that like I… I deconverted, stopped calling myself a Christian before the big podcast announcement, but I’m realizing that the work that I’m still very much in the midst of is still a deconstruction for me. So, but being able to say, I am happy and that… And I think, this is probably an echo of what I said last year, but I think, it’s a continuation of that. To say that I’m happy and I’m on the path. I’m happy with the path that I’m on. And you know what I’m gonna do? I’m gonna put on some 80s country. Mm. And that’s what I’m gonna listen to the whole drive back. And that’s what I did. And you know what I was? I was happy. I was happy the whole time because I felt like a lot of even, well, the trepidation that I identify with myself that I bring to this episode is that like… As if I wanna prove something to somebody, or that I owe a continued explanation to someone who out there, who might be listening to say… And for me, it would be, it wouldn’t be to convince somebody of something, it would… For themselves, it would be to shape their opinion of me. Right. Or actually also to shape my opinion of myself, to prove to myself that I am still on a good path. That any doubts that I would have in my mind that like, I’m still… That I’m actually in this place because of selfish decisions I’ve made. Like what you talked about last week. Like a lot of that, the undermining of… And just kind of the sweeping away, like the… With blanket statements and just simple explanations of spiritual deconstruction. To say, well, it’s really your fault. It’s really on you. Mm. You’re not doing something right. I think that because of the tenden… Those perfectionist and critical, self-critical tendencies, I’m susceptible to that. Yeah. But I’m also aware of it and I’m still learning about it. So, that’s why when we making an active decision to say, you know what? I don’t have to figure out exactly what I wanna say here for anybody else. This is, so for me, this is very much an approach of I’m just talking to you in the way that I would, if we weren’t recording this, like every other podcast. Because this is a helpful exercise for me, but it’s not for anybody else. And it’s not to prove something to myself either. Mm-hmm. So, the decision to just listen to some 80s country music was an exercise in freedom for me to say, I’m not gonna do something because I feel like I ought to. I’m going to do something because I want to. That is no… There’s nothing wrong with listen, enjoying music. It’s like I would get in a place where I would feel guilty for like, well, you thought you were gonna take this time. Mm-hmm. To read this book, or to listen to this book so that you could gain more insight and that you could have… You could make spiritual progress, even if you didn’t wanna share it with anybody. So, you’re kind of failing on your commitment to yourself. It’s like, I can very easily get in that head space again, because I live there so much. So, actually the spiritual exercise for me was listening to Randy Travis. Well, it’s pretty damn spiritual. Well, it’s so good. I didn’t listen to any of his gospel songs. So, it was, but yeah, it’s opening up my definition of spirituality. And I think, yes, I think, it’s kind of a joke to say that listening to Randy Travis is a spiritual exercise. But I do think legitimately it is a step in my personal growth and self-acceptance, self compassion. So that that positions me for more growth in every way, including spiritually down the road, to come to grips with these things that I’m talking about. Well, you know, one of the things I was actually talking about with my… Talking with my brother about this, ’cause while you were there, I was in North Carolina. Mm-hmm. And the… The idea that… ‘Cause I was telling him about this, about the book the “Before You Lose Your Faith.” Yeah, deconstructing doubt in the church. And there is this, you know, in the evangelical church, and really in sort of traditional Christianity, just like an Orthodox Christianity worldview. There is an idea that you can’t trust yourself, right? That you you’re fallen, you’re sinful and your instincts are ultimately bad, because you’re corrupted because of original sin. And the only way to have pure desires and you gotta get that from the holy spirit. You gotta get that from God, right? And so, that’s the way of thinking that we were marinated in. Yeah. And so, I see a lot of that in this book as it talks about like, when you start following your instincts that is perceived as a bad thing by a lot of Christians. Because they’re like, “Well, your instincts are gonna be misguided.” Your understanding is always gonna fall short, it’s God’s understanding and God’s insight that you have to kind of lean on. And it kind of hit me because one of the biggest things that has happened post deconstruction is learning to trust my own intuition. It’s something my wife talks about a lot, which is even more difficult for a woman who is brought up as someone who’s supposed to be submissive to the man in her life, right? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So, not only can you not trust yourself, but you gotta trust the man in your life, and you gotta trust God before you trust yourself. And you lose the ability, a lot of times, you come out of that and you have the inability to decipher between desire and intuition. And this is relevant to what you’re saying. Yeah, yeah. Because you act… Most people who have an intact moral compass, which I believe is the vast majority of people. There are people who have certain things, whether it’s environmental, or genetic, that maybe they’re just kind of bad eggs, right? And they’re gonna grow up and be serial killers, or whatever. But most people know what’s right and wrong in a general sense. And that doesn’t… So, that doesn’t mean you just follow your desires, ’cause if my desire is to do something hurtful to you, or to my wife, or my kids, or whatever, or to do something that would be hurtful to the people in my life. I might still desire to do it, but my intuition, 99% of the time tells me, well, you know that would be wrong. That would be a selfish decision. You can actually trust that intuition, right? So, when you talk, and we’re talking about the definition of spirituality being much more broad than we ever understood it to be. So, when you talk about listening to Randy Travis, making the decision to listen to Randy Travis, or not listen… Not listening to a book that would be quote unquote, spiritual in the traditional sense. I think that both of us and lots of deconstructing Christians are learning to trust your own intuition and believing that you actually do know what’s best for yourself. Yeah. And in a given moment. So, ’cause as it relates to I’m taking a different path right now, right? Like, I mean, yes, I love Randy Travis and I can see how listening to him would be a spiritual exercise. But this morning, yeah, I’m working out, my wife comes down to the garage and I’m listening to “Figuring,” Maria Popova’s very long book. And it’s like, she’s talking about some esoteric thing, where I’m sitting there doing shoulder exercises. And she didn’t… Jessie just laughs out loud. She’s like- Yeah. “I don’t understand,” cause she, ’cause when Jessie comes in the gym, she wants to turn on Lizzo, or whatever and get pumped up. Hell, yeah! She’s like, “How do you not get pumped up?” I was like, “Because that’s not how I get pumped up.” It’s like, I don’t do this, I’m not reading the Bible to please someone else. I’m not reading the Bible because there’s some obligation. I’m reading the Bible because I’m interested in it and I’m following my intuition towards the thing. And when you made a decision to listen to Randy Travis, you’re doing the same thing. Just because it’s a different application, or a different path, doesn’t make it less spiritual. The old you thinks that it’s less spiritual. And that because you can hear that voice. And that per that voice is still there. Let me illustrate in a couple of ways. I wanted, since we were shouted out in the opening of the introduction, of “Before You Lose Your Faith,” I did wanna read some of it. And I went through the table of contents to see what I should read, ’cause I didn’t think I was gonna read the whole thing. And I skipped all the way through part one, part two. I get to the very end and there was a chapter called… The next to last chapter is called, “Sometimes People Don’t Believe.” Mm-hmm. And I’m like, oh, okay, this one’s about me. This one’s about me now. So, I’m gonna read this one. So, I’m gonna skip all the way to the end. And I started reading Jared Wilson’s essay, “Sometimes People Don’t Believe,” and it kind of… It’s kind of written like a sermon, because it was such a flashback for me. It’s like I could see him because of his writing style and the words, and the principles that he’s sharing, and like reading scripture. It’s just like, it was like I was back in church. Mm-hmm. Hearing him, he writes like he talks, like he preaches, I kind of inferred. And it was, I just noticed that I just started to feel kind of sick and it didn’t get… I didn’t get any insight into it besides the fact that I realized that it was actually triggering, like… Mm-hmm. I mean, you hear the term and you throw it around a lot. Honestly, I’ve always felt like I’m not a person to be triggered. I’m ashamed to admit that I’ve always thought that that word applies to other people. Mm-hmm. That you’ve really gotta be, you’ve gotta have… You’ve gotta have some specific trauma in order for that to happen and I just don’t go to church. I don’t listen to sermons anymore, and I don’t read the Bible anymore. So, I kind of have stayed away from that, like crossing the threshold of a church in any form, in any sensation. So, to find myself there by reading this it was also a surprise to me that it just kind of felt like… I mean, the specifics of the chapter were, it was kind of like this more the strawman deconstruction. And it was just an oversimplification and left and right, it was a dismissal that I… And because I felt like they were talking about some… They really weren’t talking to someone who doesn’t believe, they were talking to people who might, who might stop believing, which is the whole point of the book. Or really, he started talking to people who were frustrated and beating themselves up because their evangelism wasn’t effective enough. That’s actually what a lot of the chapter- Yeah. Ended up being about. Mm-hmm. And there was a… That was a big flashback to when all of our training in evangelism, it was just heaps and heaps of obligation. That then became shame whenever we couldn’t seal the deal, or go out on the beach and save some stranger, you know? Even though you do everything you can and you leave the results to God. We always taught that, but again, it just reminded me in almost like a physical sense of that feeling of not being good enough. Not ever being able to cut it, to live up to it. You didn’t fully embrace the reformed tradition that you were a part of. And then- Because if you had, you would’ve been like- Yeah. I do my part and then God does the important part. Yeah. And that’s all I can do. I would say that I believed that and that… I did believe that. So, I guess I didn’t have as much strife about it because I’d be like, well, if God doesn’t regenerate this person, then that’s God’s issue. Ultimately that’s where he goes in this chapter is talking about how it’s a spiritual response that can… A conversion is a spiritual response that can only be, it originates with God. So, if you don’t, if someone that you care about, or a stranger on the beach, or anyone in between doesn’t respond and they just don’t believe. It’s, well, some people just don’t believe because they’re not chosen by God to believe, ’cause if God really wants… ‘Cause he ends up describing, the way that he ends it is, if you’re really concerned that you might not have a saving faith, this is how the whole chapter ends. It’s like, well, if you’re concerned about it, that means that God has made you concerned about it. So, you don’t need to be concerned about it anymore. You’re definitely safe. That’s a sign that you’re safe, right? I actually never struggled with was I actually saved? Because I felt like struggling with that meant my faith was not strong enough. Hmm. So, I would never admit to myself that I ever questioned whether I was saved because a strong faith would never do that. So, it was just my way of thinking and the way that I interacted with the whole system. I feel like I’m willing to admit, and every time I talk about this, I go back to this point of like, yeah, a lot of what I brought to the table, like my experience, my genetics, my environment. Everything about my past builds me to react to this evangelical system in a way that regardless of how much you talk about grace and love, I’m still gonna beat myself up. That’s just a fact of the matter. That’s exactly how it went. And then, it was just a reminder that this totally brought it all back and triggered all of it. Well, one of the things that makes that difficult for… ‘Cause my wife is… She’s a different personality than you, but- But we relate a lot in this way. But she is- As we’ve talked. She suffers from obsessive compulsive disorder and specifically scrupulosity, which is a type of OCD. In which if you’re a religious person, a person of faith, it can kind of turn it into overdrive. Where you’re basically trying to be the best possible Christian that you can be. And it’s interesting when you’re in a… Especially, she was raised in- You may not be washing your hands to the point of detriment. She kind of does that, she does that a little bit to, but- But you’re kind of, you feel like you gotta wash your spirit. Yeah. Your conscience. And she- Constantly. She went to a Baptist Christian school where they said things like, “If you’re 99.9% sure that you’re saved, you’re 100% lost.” Now, they would never have said that at a reformed institution, which we ended up going to essentially, a reformed church, right? Mm-hmm. And so, that helped somewhat, but the thing is that the Bible and also, just Christian teaching and Christian culture in general, the idea of grace through faith and it being a gift from God, and this being, basically 100% God’s responsibility, and you’re just basically responding. You’re actually, you’re not, if you’re truly reformed you’re not even responding. Your response is determined by God. It actually, doesn’t quite jive with the idea of all the responsibilities, ’cause if you just look at what Jesus had to say, Jesus is talking about a lot of stuff that we should be doing. Not everybody who says, “Lord, Lord,” will be saved, but only those who do the will of my father. The reformed tradition takes that and says, oh, this means that it’s not about works, when another way to read that is Jesus saying, “No, actually it kind of, what you do is sort of important.” You know- But then- So, regardless of your theology, your personality is gonna latch onto the obligation and the shame that sort of permeates the whole way of thinking. And by the way, there’s a… There’s at least part of what I’m saying that is kind of like, you know what? It’s my fault. And so, I hear myself saying that and I’m like, you know what? I don’t know if I wanna just accept that. So, ’cause I don’t… I’m not comfortable placing blame and talking bad about anybody, or the church and coming after anybody when my tendency always is to say, okay, yeah, this is on me. This is on me. And these are the things that I’m deconstructing and a lot of it is belief by belief. Like very early on, it was deconstructing the belief that if I left the church, even if Christy didn’t, our marriage would not survive. We’ve already talked about that. Right. But recently, the teaching has been ringing in my ears that where Jesus said, it’s easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for what? A rich man to enter the kingdom. A rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven, ’cause I, on the lats episode. Whoa, whoa, you’re rich? Are you on the Forbes list? I’m on the Forbes list. Are you above or below Ryan, the nine year old? I’m below him. Okay. But he- He might be 10 now. Right. Though, so it’s- I think, we’re above him now, but there’s another kid above us. Oh, crap. Yeah, it’s probably… I think it’s a younger girl. How easy is it for a rich kid to enter the kingdom of God? A kid can go through the eye of a needle easier than a- They’re smaller. Easier than a camel. The older you get, though, the bigger you get, typically. Yeah, yeah. Unless you’re Benjamin Button. Benjamin Button can get right through that damn needle. Eventually. Yeah, it takes a while, though. You talked about privilege, the privilege that we have, and so when I say… Last week, so when I say things like, I’m happy. And you’re rich. And it’s like, well, is it because I’m rich? Am I blinded to like, ’cause I believed that, yeah, what? I believed the teaching it’s like, if you’re rich, you got… You think you’ve got everything you want, so you’re missing out on what you really need. Not only salvation, but like an active dynamic relationship with God through Jesus. That’s what we were taught to believe, and so I’ve found myself even wrestling with that over the past couple of weeks that like, is the… Am I lying to myself just because I’m well off? Is it easy for me to be happy for that reason? So, it’s a belief that’s always been there that I have to pick up and I have to look at, and I have to dismantle it. Or see if maybe I’m wrong about it, because I hear that voice saying… My former self. Okay, maybe it’s not my formal self, maybe it’s Jesus. Maybe it’s the Jesus that I had a relationship with. That’s what I always heard from him. It’s kind of like you don’t hear the thousands of positive comments, you only hear the negative one. It’s a human tendency. Oh, we don’t get… We don’t get those. Do we? Even in this chapter, he talked about something else that kind of, I guess, triggered this again. When Jesus is telling the story of the rich man who’s burning in hell, okay, this is Luke 16. If you’re following along in your Rhett study Bible, Luke 16:19 through 31. So, the rich man’s burning in hell, but he’s looking across the chasm at Abraham, and he’s able to talk to him. Is he in the bosom? The bosom’s not mentioned here. The rich man said, “Then I beg you, father,” talking to Abraham, to send him, yeah, talking about Lazarus. Like another guy who’s like… Send him to my father’s house, where I got five brothers, who are living. So that he may warn them, less they also coming to this place of torment. It’s like, I got five brothers, just raise him from the dead, send him over there. Tell him that I’m burning in hell, they don’t need to come here. This is the rich man. You see what I’m saying? And he said, but Abraham said, “They Moses and the prophets, let them hear them.” So, they have all the truth they need. And he said, “No, if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.” They’ll change their mind, and then he said, Abraham said, “If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.” Of course, this is Jesus talking, referring to himself. So, it’s, you know, and it’s the first thing that I feel, even reading this two days ago is still all of that’s… All of that teaching just Wells up inside of me that’s like, yeah, you gonna be burning in hell. You don’t wanna even believe in hell, but you’re gonna be burning in it one day. And you’re gonna… Because you’re a rich dude, you lied to yourself. It’s like, I don’t… I don’t lay awake at night thinking these things, but that’s why I’m saying, I was triggered in so many ways because it brings up all these things that like… These lies. You think about the whole idea of being rich, right? It’s like, we actually can quantify how wealth directly influences happiness because not from a spiritual standpoint, or not from reading the Bible, but from science, right? They’ve actually done a lot of research on this and they have found that up to a certain point, yes, more money does bring you more happiness, but above a certain point- Right. It levels out. And most people have… And most people have the ability, or regardless of the circumstances, they have a baseline of happiness that they return to once their circumstances level out. Once a transitional period stops happening, right? And so the fact is, is that you know what? The fact that you and I don’t have to worry about is there going to be enough money? That is a thing that took up a lot of space in our mind for most of our 20s when we were on Staff Of Crusade and we’re raising support, we’re asking people for money, and we’re getting to places. Where it’s like, I’m not gonna have to ask my family for money in order to pay the grocery bill. Like we were in that place for a long time, right? And for me that- Your whole childhood. That fear goes much deeper into my psyche too, so- Yeah, so you’re not ever gonna lose that. To feel relief by not having to worry about money in the same way is like, something that then I’m like, should I feel guilty for this? It’s a knee jerk. Yeah, but you… But the point I’m really making is that, yeah, you probably are feeling a little bit of relief and happiness because of your financial situation. But you know what? There’s another end of that when it to a certain place, where all of a sudden finances become- Sure. A burden in a different way because you’re helping people out, and you’re trying to figure out what to do with it. And I- Whatever it’s… And I’m not saying that I am happy because I’m rich, I’m not saying that. Yeah, I understand that, but what I’m saying is that… But I get scared that I am. There’s an element of it that’s just a natural phenomenon, based on the way the human mind works. And so, you don’t ne… So, you don’t necessarily have to go beyond that to over spiritualize, that particular aspect of your life is what I’m getting at. Yeah, so it’s like to act… To experience relief and happiness, and then, for it to immediately be undercut with guilt and shame is a product of a lot of things, including the teaching that I was steeped in my entire life. And that, yeah, so I am deconstructing. I mean, the other thing, those things. The other thing is, I mean, coming out of the pandemic and the specific challenges that we went through as a family, I am experiencing the relief of things leveling out. We’re in a period where things are… We’re not devoid of personal challenges, don’t get me wrong, and you know that, but it’s… They’re of a different flavor and it’s kind of like settled down. So, it’s not a spike. It’s a little bit more of a valley. So, it’s like, it is a kind of a… It’s a time when I can take a breath. So, I’m on this trip and I’m taking more of a breath, and that’s also a reason why I’m realizing that I’m happier, because I’m at this season of life. Or this little phase where maybe there’s another storm around the corner, but I’m not in a downpour, but again, for that to be undercut is telling. Another thing, and I’ll segue into therapy update here, which is another huge part of my spiritual journey right now. Is I guess, the last time at this table, we talked about therapy, we were talking about how I basically came to the conclusion that I needed to switch therapists. Mm. I needed to find a new therapist. Well, I did with the help of Christy, with the help of Christy’s therapist and the conversation we had then, and then subsequent conversations that you and I had. It was very helpful to get me, to really get me to work on that. And Christy did a lot of work. She was like, “Okay, well, it’s the top of the year. You’re gonna go for this. You’re not gonna languish, or be in this limbo. It could be six months if you don’t.” Mm-hmm. If you don’t just meet with somebody, it may not be the right person. And so, I’ve been meeting with a therapist, new therapist for actually, tonight will, I think, will be our sixth meeting. And it’s going really good. And it’s totally different. Yeah. Than therapy was before. And a lot of that is like, with everything that I was going through and all of the acute issues that a bunch of fires that needed to be put out. There were a bunch of torrential downpours. I’m mixing metaphors here, but well, a lot of that- Downpours can put out fires. You want rain when it’s the wildfire season comes around. But then, it turns into a mudslide. That’s the problem. And it destroys your entire home. You can’t get away from that. That’s what it felt like for a while. One thing’s gonna help, no, it’s gonna make things worse, kind of a thing. But, and so, therapy was really helpful, but it was more of that acute survival, get through it as I think, I talked about last time. But now, I was able to set the stage with this new therapist to say, you know what? I wanna move into a new phase. These are the things, and I shared some of the complaints I had with how my frustrations with therapy before and saying, “Hey, it was only my first therapist.” This is what I’m looking for, if this isn’t you, let me know. So, like on our first phone call, the pre-interview thing, I kind of just laid all that out there and I’m glad I did because he was able to respond and say, “Okay, well, I’m different in this way. You want something that’s more conversational. I hear you saying you want something that feels a little more relational.” And, but then he also talked about his therapeutic approach and how it was different. And I talked about my spiritual background and he had a specific point of view on that. He had experience with that. He had a point of reference for the evangelical church and dealing with shame. That was something that he spent a lot of time with. So, I was like, okay, yeah, this is… This could really work, especially because I’ve said that I want to go deeper. I wanna start tackling these issues. And so that’s, I think, a lot of the conversation that I’m having here, it sounds like I’m just being hit with stuff. Like when driving my van, or when I’m reading this and being triggered. But I do think, I’m able to talk about it and make more sense of it just based on the last five sessions. The first five sessions I’ve had in therapy, because it’s been much more pointed in that direction of relating it to my experience in the church and my deconstruction. Mm-hmm. Continual deconstruction. Like when I talk about the camel going through the eye of the needle, that’s something that I… That came up in therapy that surprised me, but it was just an… And it was a realization that that’s another, wow, I am really still just deconstructing because I kind of put a pause on that for almost the past two years, in a lot of ways. At least like a pointed, I’m gonna dig into my past in different ways and then, really see what applications are there, how I can grow, and what lessons I can learn, so I’m really encouraged. And one thing real quick there too that we didn’t talk about with the eye of the needle thing. Yeah. Is which I’d be willing to guess Jesus did say. And I’m not saying Jesus only says the things that you want him to say. There’s more to it than that, but when Jesus talked about the kingdom of heaven, most of the time, or all of the time, it seemed like he was talking about something that was present, right? That was present now, that was present on earth, that he was inviting you into something, right? He was inviting you into a new way of thinking, a new way of living. And I think that the point to that story, to that parable, or the saying, or whatever it is, I completely, I think both of us would agree. It’s like money is a distraction, right? And it can be something that makes it more difficult for you to be present and enter into life in a meaningful, fruitful way. Because our natural instinct is to collect and hoard, and get worried about that, and protect that, and it’s not a very spiritual mindset. That’s not a Christian idea. That’s a broadly spiritual idea that you’re gonna find in Islam. You’re gonna find in Buddhism, you’re gonna find in Hinduism. This idea that money can be a distraction to those things, right? And so, again, the old evangelical voice, we always read that as riches are going to make it difficult to enter the kingdom of heaven. Heaven being the afterlife and not that, oh, a rich man doesn’t get in, but like somebody who’s putting their riches over their relationship with Jesus, or you know what I’m saying? But you can, there is a way to approach that with a free mindset, where you can actually take what the… The wisdom that’s there without letting the guilt seep in, and shame seep in, you know? Yeah. I’ll give a different example. So, we’re not just harping on the rich. Since I was so close to the end of this book, I skipped the last chapter, which is the one about Jesus. Maybe that’s the one that would’ve changed everything for me, but I skipped it. And then it was just ads for other books that the Gospel Coalition had. Ooh, nice. And they got the picture of the book is called, “Taming the Tongue.” What the fuck is that about? How the gospel transforms our talk by Jeff Robinson. Oh. And then, Nancy Guthrie, who’s an author and Bible teacher gave an endorsement and you know- There’s no cursing in her endorsement. I don’t think so. This book hit home with me. Perhaps and just, she describes her experience reading this book. This is an endorsement in the back of this book, okay? Well, listen, you gotta take every advantage, I mean, listen, we know about ads. But listen, oh yeah, listen to her experience, though. And it’s see if it’s like mine. This book hit home with me, perhaps because some of my greatest regrets have come from ways I’ve misused words, confidences I didn’t keep, criticism I was too eager to offer. Bragging to make myself seem important, dominating the conversation when I should have listened. I’ve also misused words by keeping silent when I should have come clean, when I should have offered praise, when I should have spoken up. These and many more insights on how I am. These and many more insights on how we use our words are covered in this brief, but wisdom filled book. A great book to read prayerfully on your own, but even better to use to discuss with a small group. So you can air out how you are in a small group setting. You know, it’s why… It’s like, this is the stuff that I would eat up. It’s like, oh yeah, yeah, okay, now I gotta tame the tongue. Yeah, it’s like, ugh, I’m doing all these things. I’m criticizing, I’m bragging. Shit, I’m also not saying things. I’m keeping silent when I should come clean. I should be offering praise. You know, I just… I’m so glad that I don’t have to read anymore of that book. I’m so glad that I can- But are you saying that those ideas are not important? Are you saying that? I’m saying that- I know you’re not, I’m playing devil’s advocate here. I just wanna… I wanna know what, because one way of interpreting what you’re saying is that- It’s eviscerate- You can just do whatever you want to and you don’t need to… Yeah. You don’t follow any rules. That’s not my problem. Right. That’s not my problem. Exactly, you- My problem is being eviscerated by rules. And it turns out I’m a pretty good person, but I have to convince myself of that very frequently. And that, I think, that’s sad, but I think, that’s my work. Because I believe that it’s true, not because it will make me happier. And I feel like everything that I’ve said today will just… Anybody who wants to from the inside, where we used to be, like you said, you would’ve written chapters in that book. And I would’ve written off everything that I’ve said and everything that I’ve said last year, and the year before, because that’s how I was. But I was… I would do it to others because I did it to myself twice as much. And I would get mad that other people weren’t doing that to themselves. Mm-hmm. And it was not a good way… It was not a… It was not a good life to live for me. It was not, I wasn’t thriving. Well, this is one of the things that people are different, right? And I think that, and I… This has probably gotten better, we haven’t been a part of the church for a while, but one of the things that we noticed, especially in college is that the only distinction that was made between people was men and women, right? It was like, okay, there’s a… The men are gonna separate and go into this room and talk about a few things. And then women are gonna go in this room and they’re gonna talk about a few things, and we’ll talk about some stuff together, but that was the one distinction. But there was very little nuance discussed about people’s personalities. Kind of what you’re getting at is the fact that whether you call it Enneagram one, or whether you just call it a person who struggles with shame and guilt. And my wife in a different way, struggles with it. We have to be sensitive, if I was still in the church, what I would be saying is we gotta be sensitive to those people who are natural rule followers, and are naturally self critical. And we don’t need to spend a lot of time getting them to understand what the right and the wrong is because it’s so built into who they are. We need to be really pouring grace into their lives, right? Whereas, you got somebody like me, that’s, you know, I need rules, right? Because my tendency is to just decide that they don’t apply to me. Mm. You know what I’m saying? And so, when I read her say that, her review of that book and I see, I’m like, yeah, I kinda… That’s true, I need to think about the way that I speak. I need to think about the impact that my words have. I need to think about the impact that the lack of my words have, right? And those are principles that I can apply to myself without a sense of guilt or shame, just because I’m like, yeah, that’s true. And I need to do that, and I don’t do that on a regular basis. I don’t think there was room for that for us to sort of see things diff- Yeah, I mean, I didn’t experience that. To see things differently. Another update that I’m totally fine to share. I think, at a certain point, I didn’t know if I was going to be, but I’ve started anxiety medication, yes. So, that’s why you’re happy? Right, it’s that yoga, I just… That was also at the top of the year, under my doctor’s care, also talking with my therapist. But yeah, I started taking Zoloft, well, Sertraline, I think, is like the cheaper… Generic? Generic. I thought you were rich, why can’t you get of the real stuff? It’s great, it’s the exact same. I’m taking 25 milligrams. I took that for a month and I had a bunch of negative side effects that I expected. Headaches every day, some nausea. I would take it in the morning ’cause that’s when I take my other supplements in my smoothie. If I took it at night, I would forget it. It wasn’t that bad, except for one day that I got a migraine, you remember that? Well, my wife was… Who is also medicated in this way. She was talking to you. She wanted me to take it at night. And she told me the story, she was like, “I told Link that the same thing happened to me and I just switched it to night. And he was like, “Oh no, no, I can’t do that. I have to do it when I do it. I have to do it in the morning.” I was like, yeah- That’s when I wanna take it. Don’t change his routine. I’d rather… I would rather be nauseous and have headaches- Yeah, which is, that sounds like- Than change my routine. That’s Link. ‘Cause once I get over it, that’s when I need to take it consistently. And going on Reddit, like whatever you’re experiencing in your life, it’s go on Reddit and search it just to have other people, who… I mean, this is kind of a, I think, there’s danger in this advice, in general. Well, I guess, trigger warning when you send people to Reddit. In general. I mean, I go to the… I went to the Zoloft thread and it was just really helpful to hear people’s- Yeah, yeah. Anecdotal accounts. If you wanna get the unbiased opinion about people’s experience with things, a lot of times you get the right Reddit thread and it will be very helpful. Yeah, you gotta find the right one, and you can’t… That’s not going above my doctor’s care, but it’s all very practical stuff, and you hear like the preponderance of evidence that a lot of people have headaches. So, I’m not gonna get freaked out about that. And then, I’ve also noticed that it takes longer to climax, and I’m talking about sexually. Oh, I thought you meant, like get to the top of a mountain on a hike. Yeah, it doesn’t affect hiking, but that’s not a bad thing thus far. No, that’s a good thing. It’s a good thing, ’cause it’s just more pleasure for a longer time. Double your pleasure, double your fun, double my dose to 50 milligrams as of yesterday because I want to have sex even longer. No, I’m joking. Is there a way for me to get just the part of it that helps with that? Yeah, I think, you just shave off the end of the pill. Oh, God, to shave off. I was like, I’m circumcised already, and I don’t think that helps. The reason why I upped my dose is because all the side effects, basically subsided after three weeks. But then, it’s still kind of hard to tell if my… ‘Cause for me, it’s not… I don’t have panic attacks. I’ve never had a panic attack. I’ve actually been in denial that I’ve had… And I spoke about this in the last therapy update. I’ve been in denial that I’ve had like a diagnosable anxiety disorder. Mm-hmm. But I said, okay, my last therapist said I did. I mean, when you’re having heart palpitations that they’re not constant, but they come and go. It’s like, I’ve had that for decades. Whenever my stress would get over a certain threshold. So, I mean, so I was like- And that’s gone? That’s what went away after- You’re not getting the warnings on your watch that say… After a couple of weeks, yeah. Elevated heart rate. Well, palpitation is different. It’s just like a flutter it’s not an el… It wouldn’t show up as an elevated heart rate, but and sometimes, I remember when I worked for IBM, I would lay down on the couch to watch television. And that’s when I’d feel it, when you get still they’re happening, but you only feel it when you’re still, or sometimes it’ll wake you up when you’re sleeping. But those have gone away, but I don’t… I think, I might be able to benefit from upping the dose, so I’m seeing if there’s more benefit there, because that’s really the only thing I can point to. And it’s really, it hasn’t been… It really takes a couple of months for you to really see. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, it took… I had to get over this hump of being willing to say that I have a problem and that I might need medication for it. Yeah. It was, you know? With Christy and Jessie speaking so openly about it for years, and the benefits of it. I was very… I had a very positive outlook on it, but I was just like, but I don’t need it. Mm-hmm. I don’t need it, I just… I just am constantly eviscerating myself in my own brain, but that’s just my normal. So, it took everything coming together to get to this point, but once I got over it, I’m like, okay, I’m… When I started having headaches, it did… I actually didn’t question it because I feel like this is, it’s just an experiment and it’ll either work or it won’t, but I’m not gonna quit before I find out if it works. And it has already started to work, but I do have a little bit of a headache right now, and I kind of hate you. No, I don’t, I’m not irritable, but I might be later. Don’t take it personally. I won’t, I guess. So, that’s where this is ending. It really all comes down to drugs. That’s my spiritual journey right now, drugs. Well, hand me the book because I’m thinking of… I’m thinking of a chapter that I read as you talk about these things again. But I do feel like I’ve just lobbed all these softballs at anybody who cares to just write me off, but I don’t- But that doesn’t matter. I don’t care. It doesn’t matter. I don’t care and the reality is they don’t because it’s not about some belief, some belief that they can counterpoint, that then they can use to keep people they love from leaving the faith. And that’s why they come after you. Well, ironic thing is I don’t know. I try a lot of things out on this podcast, just new thoughts. So, but one of the things that’s hitting me is we were from the reformed perspective. A lot of the Christians that we’re still in very close relationship with are in the reform tradition. We haven’t written Christians off in our lives, and still taught regularly to many. And I do think that for those who are truly reformed, sort of like all the way to full tulip Calvinists. Yeah. I know that they’re worried about us, but then, I think that they have the ability to kind of farm it out to, well, if they’re not chosen, they’re not chosen and I have to deal with that. But it’s not like I can say much to change them at this point. I think, the way that I’m beginning to think about belief in convincing people and that kind of thing. Again, I have this, I wanna convince people of things, but you start realizing that no one ever has been ever, no one’s ever been forced into believing something. Believing something is an involuntary reaction to a set of circumstances, and experiences, and predispositions. You get to this place and you just, you either do believe that something is true, or you don’t believe that something is true. Now, new information can be given to you that might make you reconsider it, but just the idea that I can say something that’s going to fundamentally change the way somebody thinks about something, I’m actually moving more into that place. Not from a reform perspective, ’cause I don’t believe in that, but just from a… Don’t worry too much about it. Like when you talk about, oh, well, I’ve said all this stuff that could be used against me. I know you’re not really worrying about it, but- Yeah, I, I don’t think- But you know- Will read any of that, or… I have, I’ve seen the posts and the comments, and the reposts, and the soundbites, and all that stuff. And my mind has changed about those things over time to a place, it’s like, well, of course, that’s what you’re gonna say. Right. But as you talk about therapy and you talk about medication, I’m reminded of chapter two in this book, which I think was the most relatable for me, from Ian Harbor. Because Ian went through a deconstruction and went and moved to basically progressive Christianity. Okay. He mentions our friend, Science Mike. Oh, he does? What’s the title of the chapter? “Progressive Christianity Was Even Shallower Than the Evangelical Faith I Left.” Right, and so, it was this idea of like, my faith was deconstructed and I moved into progressive Christianity. And what I found is that they weren’t giving me anything to build, to rebuild a faith. And also, it was characterized by a lot of rigid fundamentalist thinking, group think in this, that was stuff that I was uncomfortable with in the original thing that I left. Yeah. I find it interesting that the application was to go back to the original faith, versus just saying, I don’t want to identify with an ideology, or a group thing. But progressives had become just as fundamentalist as the fundamentalist that they despised. Only now, instead of the litmus test being traditional values, it was wokeness. If you didn’t tow the party line of progressive orthodoxy, you were an outcast, a heretic. I’d heard about the dangers of moralistic therapeutic deism, MTD. The default American religion in which God simply wants you to live a decent life, not be sad. And he doesn’t intrude on your life. I originally ran a progressive Christianity to counter that kind of shallow belief, but what I found was more of the same, only with new definitions. Wokeness was the new morality, therapy was the new path to happiness. Cancel culture was the new church discipline. And like MTD, there was conveniently no personal God to place demands on your life in any meaningful way. And this progressive MTD, Elizabeth Gilbert’s trope is the only thing left. God dwells within you as you. There’s no way to distinguish between ourselves and God, in this paradigm, we are God. He goes on to talk about, he’s not anti-wokeness, or anti-therapy. He was in therapy for a couple years in college, can benefit many of us. But I think that- Therapy is the path to happiness? Well, maybe I would say that, okay, you’ve taken this opportunity to give your spiritual update, which kind of becomes also a therapy update. So, how do you respond to that? Is therapy your religion? Definitely. I see therapy as my… I need therapy to help me make sense of all this. I’m talking about, I’ve talked for over an hour and I’m just scratching the surface of insight into myself. This is the work that I’m doing is to understand my past, my present so that then, I can move into my future unburdened from unnecessary burdens. And be the… To love, I’m gonna go back to that. I mean, that is my goal, but I need professional help to understand myself and to break down the lies that I’ve been telling myself so that I will be free to be the best me I can be. Insert whatever trope you want at that point. You know? I think that this is a path forward. It is not… It’s not a religion. It’s not something that I worship. It’s not a system of beliefs, or actions. It’s help, it’s treatment in a lot of ways that then opens me up to where I can go next on my life journey and spiritual journey. But I feel like I’m very much, everything that I’ve described today is I feel like I’m being held back from not fully processing my past. Mm-hmm. And this is my treatment to process it so that I can continue to move forward. To be, I wanna be open. I wanna be… I want to have a vibrant experience. I wanna live life to the fullest and I wanna make the most positive impact I can make while I’m here. And I think that this is a necessary step of treatment for me. I could, I guess, I could imagine that some people would just worship therapy as a religion, but I… I just see it a lot simpler than that. I mean, the thing that I would say to a guy like Ian is I think, we’re all on a journey toward wholeness. Well, if we’re getting healthier, if we’re seeking things that will be a benefit. I don’t wanna be on a journey to wholeness. Yeah, right, right, right. When it’s like, okay, I’ve got it figured out, or this is when it’s negative this and negative that, I’m against this, I’m against that. And so, I mean, I hear what he’s saying when it’s like, if you just move from being against a bunch of… Being against a bunch of other , it’s like, some people get off on that, but that’s just not me. So, I guess I agree with… I feel that. Well, I mean, I definitely agree with the idea that fundamentalist thinking happens in multiple circles, right? We talked about that last time. Yeah. And I’m very uncomfortable with a lot of the fundamentalist thinking that I see on the left, I am, because I think, there’s not a lot of room for people to ask questions. Yeah. Without being labeled and right, and there’s a very binary way of approaching a lot of things. Mm-hmm. But, and obviously I believe that exists on the right and it was one of the things that I was happy to leave behind. Not the reason I deconstructed, but just something I was happily, I was happy to leave behind. But if we’re all trying to move towards wholeness, and we’re all trying to make sense. Like you say, make sense of your experience, and make sense of your life. And ultimately, I don’t wanna… I don’t wanna say it’s about a pursuit of happiness because that’s a little too shallow, ’cause I think that happiness is just a state of being that comes and goes, and you can’t… You can’t achieve some person that… We used to talk about joy being much more important than happiness as Christians, right? Uh-huh. I think for Ian, in his journey toward wholeness, for whatever reason, because of his personality makeup, his circumstances, his background having, tying into some kind of traditional system and an idea that there is a more well defined source of this authority and this purpose, it’s something that he’s after. And it might be something that is at least for right now, required in his journey toward wholeness. I’m not gonna blame him for that. Again, I can’t change the… He deconstructed, he got into what he calls progressive Christianity, and then saw some emptiness there and is going back to something that feels more well defined, or just fits the… His particular disposition better. Mm-hmm. And I think, that that’s the thing that I’m trying to like… But that’s not what you’re after, that’s not what I’m after, but we’re also not after the same thing, right? Right, yeah. And so, to go back to your Randy Travis of it all; whereas, maybe if I was in that van coming down the highway, yeah, I’d listen to some Randy Travis, but I’m not gonna listen to Randy Travis the whole time. I’m gonna put on this book about some other thing that I’m interested in. And that’s my moving towards wholeness, and that’s actually following my intuition. And in that case, it’s following my desire that my intuition tells me is good for me, right? Yeah. Versus like, I’m gonna do something that’s gonna tear down me and tear down my relationships and- Right, right. And to me, and this sounds whatever, woo, whatever, that’s spirituality broadly defined. It doesn’t have to have… It doesn’t have to be super well defined because I’m not able to define it well, and that’s not something I’m after. And I don’t think it’s something that you’re after. Yeah, right. But if that’s something that you are after, you are going to gravitate towards orthodox systems. And you know what, maybe that’s what’s best for you at this point, And I’m not gonna try to convince you otherwise. Yeah, okay, well, we’ll end it there. I think, it was… I’ve got some more bones to dig up. I’m gonna be digging up bones for a while. Mm-hmm. That’s a Randy Travis reference, I know you’re catching that. But I will leave you with a wreck and I’m gonna stay in an audio book that I’ve been listening to, “Miracle and Wonder.” This has been very spiritually edifying for me. It looks at Jesus from, you know what? It doesn’t look at Jesus at all, it’s about Paul Simon. I got you. Audible book, “Miracle and Wonder, Conversations With Paul Simon and Malcolm Gladwell.” Mm. And it’s five hours long, and it’s the Malcolm Gladwell treatment of Paul Simon, one of the greatest song writers of all time. So, you really get an insight into his creative process. So, it’s not as much personal as it’s a… It’s a study in creativity and songwriting through candid conversations, like 50 hours of conversations that… 30 hours of conversations that he recorded. Hmm. Being in the same room with him. So, it’s really cool, especially the first half. If you’re a fan of Paul Simon and Simon and Garfunkel as well, it’s like, it’s very inspiring. And from a creative standpoint, spiritually edifying. So, check it out, highly recommend it, “Miracle and Wonder.” Well, thanks for listening to our updates, hashtag Ear Biscuits, let us know where you’re at. We love to hear, we’d love for you to take part in the conversation. Where you’re at, how you’re processing these things. We’re interested in your ideas and your experiences. So, share ’em with us. Yeah. If you’re willing. How’d you process this? To watch more Ear Biscuits, click on the playlist on the right. To watch the previous episode of your biscuits, click on the playlist to the left. And don’t forget to click on the circular icon to subscribe. If you prefer to listen to this podcast, it’s available on all your favorite podcast platforms. Thanks for being your mythical best.