EB 386: Our Most Dangerous Vacation

Welcome to “Ear Biscuits,” the podcast where two lifelong friends talk about life for a long time. I’m Link. And I’m Rhett. This week at The Round Table of Dim Lighting, we’re back. Back! After a break. Yes. The show continues. And boy… The podcast continues. We considered, we considered. No. We considered not- No, we didn’t consider it. We didn’t consider it. We didn’t not continuing it. We had some fun while we were away or you were away from us and we were away from you. We went away. Two different, not so exotic. exotic locales. Not exotic in a traditional sense, like we went to- Well, I wouldn’t call ’em exotic. I’m just saying we did some things. We did some dangerous things. We did some dangerous things. And it wasn’t until just a second ago that I realized that the theme, I think the common thread of some of the things that we did over the past few weeks was calculated risk, was danger. That maybe people might say, why are you guys doing that? Don’t do things that you might die doing. Huh. And I haven’t thought about it until right now that we could have died. There was multiple, multiple- That’s a lie. Multiple places that I could tell you were we could have died. thinking about dying. We broke the seal on us going scuba diving together. Yes, we did. That falls under the category of- That was the least dangerous thing we did, by the way. I think. Really? Yeah, because when you take into account the depth that we went to, I think maybe you’re right. I don’t know though. But one thing I do know is that, boy, we are outdoorsmen. We are outdoorsmen. We really like to go into the great outdoors and just have a great, great time. We met our college friends in Colorado for year two of outdoor adventure, catching up. So let’s give ’em the update on that and the scuba diving. Which do you want to do first? Let’s do scuba diving first. Now I’m really- Well, there was one thing that happened that I didn’t expect that was just amazing. We’re gonna save that. We gotta save that at the right time. And it wasn’t even scuba diving. Chase went with us. You’re talking about Chase? That’s the unexpected. Chase is our guide, and Shepherd. You’ve been scuba diving with Chase before. This is my first time- I never leave home without him. And with Chase, and Chase brought his camera set up. Now, let me also say I brought my camera set up and aborted. I aborted really early on filming anything because of reasons that I’ll get into. And also Chase was there. So I talked with Chase at the end of last week as I was heading out. You were right behind me and I stopped and he stuck his head in my window. We had a little exchange. I’m gonna fill you in on that exchange. Yeah, I was like, “Hey, I’m trying to leave here. That exchange was him saying, “Hey, do you want me to give you all the footage that I took from the dive?” And I was like, no, because that would require me doing something with, like, looking through it. And I said, Chase, this is what would be really helpful. If you would take, like, you know, half a minute of some compelling footage that just is evidence that the three of us went on a dive together, 30 seconds, that then while people are watching “Ear Biscuits” on YouTube, they can see that whatever point Jamie says, this is the point when I will show the footage. I know how this show So anyway, was made. that’s what Chase promised me. And if he doesn’t deliver, it’s the end. I’m gonna kill him. I’m gonna kill him. No, I think it’ll just be me and him going scuba diving again. We took a boat out to Sure did. Anacapa and then we went from Anacapa over to Santa Cruz Island. Am I right about those names? If you didn’t know, there’s something called the Channel Islands. I think it’s a national. National park. It is. So there’s a string of islands, maybe seven or so off the- You probably heard of Catalina. Yeah, off the coast of, that’s one of them. California and at least two of these islands have been featured as background images for different OS releases, Mac OS releases, right. Because there was a Catalina, definitely. And I didn’t know there was another one. I’m pretty sure that in one- Maybe just a background on Mac, there was a Santa Cruz island picture Okay. Or something. Anyway, crazy. First of all, you know I love islands. Crazy history on these islands and obviously some tragic history of, like, the people who lived out there. There’s like 5,000 people who lived on the islands where the Spaniards showed up and then they took ’em off the island and made ’em build churches and, you know, ravaged the population. There’s nobody out there anymore, except there’s people who live on Catalina and there’s some people, I don’t know. Which one was the one on the left and which one was the one on the right? As we were leaving the one with the arch, and then you got a good view of like, Anacapa is north of Santa Cruz. Santa Cruz is the one that has, like, some houses on it. There’s some people, maybe researchers or something living out there, but we’re talking like desolate rocky islands with just cliffs, essentially. Yeah. Like an hour or so boat ride to get to from Ventura is where we left from. And we don’t go on the island. The captain stops the boat and gives us this orientation and then, yeah, for the first time ever, we’re scuba diving together. There was a point when we got in there, it was me, you, Chase, Shepherd. Lincoln was supposed to come, but then he got sick. It was just like a head cold. But you can’t go scuba diving with congestion. I mean, I didn’t have any congestion. You can’t equalize. I didn’t equalize properly and I still had, like, Not this most recent time. Pre when I got my certification. So I was sad that Lincoln couldn’t make it, especially with what happened. He was pretty bummed out. But yeah, we’re going down there. We’re going, we’re swimming around. And there was a certain point I kind of forgotten that we had not done this together. We’ve done so many things together that, like, it wasn’t top of mind. And then when I was underwater doing my thing, You saw how good I was at it and you were like, oh, I’ve never done this with him before. No, I was… I just turned around. I was like, I’m gonna look at my buddy, Rhett, scuba diving for the first time and I’m gonna take full credit for this. And you’re like, he’s so big. Well, I just took a little joy from seeing you having some fun. And you know what? And your son. You deserve the credit for taking the initiative. I enjoyed it so much. I didn’t build it up too much, so that you could then have your own expectations exceeded. And now look at us, man. And listen. And the thing about Shepherd. I mean, we’ll talk about how Shepherd did that day. But right now, Shepherd is in Florida at a camp where he’s, like, scuba diving, you know. He’s gonna come back more certified than either one of us. Officially. I think so. I got a report today that he’s had a on and off migraine for a couple of days, that prevented him from going in the water yesterday. So I don’t know if further certification is in jeopardy. But he’s having a great time. Conditions have to be perfect. I mean, it was beautiful. We were scuba diving around. We were in the kelp forest. It’s relaxing. Well, it is relaxing. But I was dealing with… Let me tell you what I was dealing with. First of all, my son was there, which when your 14-year-old son is your dive buddy because, you’re not my dive buddy. You’re my best friend. You’re not my dive buddy. Chase is my dive buddy. And that’s not, like, something that you do a blood oath about, and that can change at any moment. It can change dive to dive. But when my son is there, he’s my dive buddy and I’m thinking about his safety the whole time. I’m being a dad, you know, and I’m dealing with my own situation with a new wetsuit that’s kind of choking me right here. I’m also trying to Totally fine to be choked while scuba diving. trying not to get sick. ‘Cause I get seasick and I had taken a Dramamine as we go out there and I was like, okay. I guess I’m gonna be okay. Like, no issue going out. But then, like, as you’re sitting there in this boat that’s stationary, now that you’ve stopped and they’re telling you to- The thing I didn’t anticipate. You know, when you see somebody, like, scuba diving, I actually noticed this. I watched a commercial and there was some guy in, like, a tank with something, some animal. I can’t remember the details. And I remember every single time I’ve ever seen somebody scuba diving on television, you just look like, oh, they’re just swimming around in the ocean. And it isn’t until you do something that you realize, oh, there was a lot of time that it took to just to get that stuff on, to get this thing strapped. It’s a lot heavier than you anticipate. Yeah, it’s like an Instagram versus reality post. Yeah. And it takes 20, 30 minutes or so it feels like to get all this stuff on and secure. And as you’re in this boat that’s kind of doing this side thing and you’re prone to seasickness and you feel like you’re getting choked and you’re dealing with your son who’s having a hard time getting all his stuff on. Yeah. You seem, you seem stressed out and you get hot when you’re trying to get all this stuff on. And you’re trying to remember everything, because if you forget something and then you’re in the water and you didn’t turn your air on or something, that’s gonna be a big, big problem. You know how kids- So stress levels can go up. Heat levels can go up and then you’re bobbing around. And yeah, you start to- So I started to get a little queasy, but the other thing that was happening is you know how kids are like. Shepard will get to a place where he couldn’t get his glove on or he couldn’t get his wetsuit and he just kind of freezes and just waits for you to grab it and it’s like you kind of feel like you’re doing all the work and he’s not, like, advocating for himself. And so, I’m literally saying things like, advocate for yourself. I wasn’t even beside you, and I heard that like. There’s other people in the boat, dude. A lot of other people. Yeah, yeah. They’ve seen fathers and sons dive together, trust me. Were on opposite ends of the boat and all of a sudden I hear, I’m like, what? Yeah, you gotta be- I guess Shepherd’s not advocating for himself. The reason I use that term is because that’s the term that Hal used when we were training. Yeah. It is important. He was like, Shepherd, you’ve got to advocate for yourself throughout this process, anytime he would come to help. So it wasn’t like I used that kind of language with my son on a regular basis. It was actually nicer than what I usually would say and way more technical. But so he was having a tough time and then he was thinking, I’m being choked, because it’s cold. The water’s cold. It’s like 60 degrees, which sounds warm, but is very cold for water. And you got, like, this vest over the top of it. So there’s lots of things like bunching up around these McLaughlin necks that are causing trouble. And so, but we get in, we do the dive. And what I notice is that- I’m glad I went first, because if I were just listening to this, you’re not selling it. At the end of the dive, because there was so much current, you know, diving in the Caribbean is like going to an amusement park. It’s so easy. The water’s warm, there’s no current. You’re not wearing anything. Yeah. But, like, the kelp forest was moving with us, right, Because as the waves come to come up against the island, they kind of move you at the same rate. But then, right, the background. Yes. Like the bottom of the ocean rocks and stuff. stays stationary. And I looked down and felt, and immediately got sick, to the point of thinking I was gonna vomit in the water. You’re underwater at this point. Underwater. Yes. And I, again, from my training, Hal, who did a great job training me, Hollywood Divers. He was like, if you have to vomit, do it into the regulator. Don’t take it out Don’t take it out of your mouth. and just vomit through the regulator and it’s just like out into the water. And I was like, bro, I don’t think I’m gonna be able to do that. And the reason why is because when you’re vomiting, you have this Natural reflex. Natural reflex to then ugh, and then if you’re, like, doing that without your regulator in… Water goes in the pipes. Yeah, you’re gonna be… And then, if you’re sucking down water, phew, you might be in a panic situation. So we get out and- You did not vomit. Did not vomit. How close do you feel like you got? I mean, I have an issue with vomiting. Meaning that it takes so much to actually get me to even when I want to, when I’m so sick and I’m like, if I could just vomit, I just can’t do it. So I got outta the water and you get back into this boat that’s like the wind is beginning to pick up and it’s just, like, still feeling choked, dealing with Shepherd who’s like, I got a headache. Long story short Shepherd had a headache. Didn’t do the last two dives and kind of just laid up on top of the boat. He ended up having a good time. It didn’t, like, ruin scuba diving for him, but I was dealing with the queasiness, like coming and going the whole time. You took more Dramamine. I took a second one. But every time I got in the water, I felt good. It was always at the end of the dive it would be a little- But the last dive, we did three dives. The last dive was my favorite dive. Had no sickness at all. Not having to think about your son and worry about the safety of your kid. Now that you ditch him, you had an awesome time, right? I’m just going around. They paired me up with that dude that was from another group. Yeah. I don’t care about that guy. I lost him several times. You’re a great buddy. But he also was- He didn’t want to be found though. He didn’t seem like he really wanted to be a buddy with anybody. But, Rhett, what you need to remember about what you just said was that if you needed help, you didn’t have your buddy. I knew where you and Chase were. Okay, yeah. You were basically with us. And we didn’t talk about this. Do you remember this one point where I turned around and looked at you and I took the regulator out of my mouth and sometimes I’ll take the regulator out of my mouth ’cause I might swish ocean water around in my mouth. That wasn’t part of my training. I’m trying to get comfortable with the regulator being missing and then putting it back in my mouth. Yeah. And keep my stress It’s important. levels lower. It makes me feel more prepared for something to go wrong, like if I do have to hold my breath. You’re not supposed to ever hold your breath. You’re supposed to keep your regulator in. I took my regulator out. I wasn’t about to vomit or anything. I was having a great time and I turned around and I looked at you and I took my regulator in my mouth and I’m like, I put it towards you. I knew that you were being foolish. I was just being foolish. But there was this one moment where- Which is not a good thing to do, by the way. I realized how dumb that was when you kind of, I saw that you shuttered a minute and you were like, do you want me to give you my- I have an octopus regulator, a backup regulator that I can give you, so you can- Do you need this? And I was like, no, I’m fine. Whoop. And I was like, oh yeah I shouldn’t. No horseplay. Horseplay. Well, it’s one thing to horseplay. It’s one thing to do the thing that you would do if you were having a crisis, as a joke. Sorry. This is why you’re not my dive buddy and never will be. But I didn’t do it to Chase though. I did it to you, because you’re not my dive buddy. Yeah, you can do anything with your non-dive buddy. I don’t even know why I did it. I was just like, I’m having a good time. Hey, look at me. Here’s my regulator. Regulator’s out. But yeah. So yeah, thank you for being there for me. I quickly realized what was going on. But we had a great time. I keep wanting to see something big, sharks included. We saw some little sharks. We saw some little sharks. I want to see these big animals, because there’s a thrill in it and I think that there’s actually a very, very low risk of anything happening to you. It’s pretty uncommon for a shark to attack a scuba diver. I’m not basing that on anything I’ve read. It’s just kind of a feeling. Okay. Yeah, let’s go with that. This is my theory. And tell me if I’m right or wrong about this. You’re right. I think you’re more likely to be attacked by a shark while swimming or surfing, ’cause you’re kind of on the surface and you’re thrashing and you more resemble maybe a wounded animal, but when you’re down- And still highly unlikely in those scenarios, but when you are down in the water, and you’ve got these bubbles coming up and you’re big and there’s this tank, like, a shark can figure out this is not what I usually eat and so I’m not gonna eat it. Now, if you’re like holding the fish and you’re, like, chumming up the water or whatever, all bets are off. But that’s my theory. That’s why I don’t have any fear about sharks in the water. Yeah, I don’t find myself being afraid of anything except… I’m not afraid of the animals. I’m afraid, what am I afraid of? I talked about overcoming my fears of, like, just being underwater and ’cause I don’t like holding my breath, but you don’t hold your breath. So, like, clearing, equalizing. Now that I’ve had a sinus injury, I have a little bit of fear about that. And I think I have a fear of the unknown, of, like, something going wrong and I’m not gonna keep my wits about me. The abyss. No. Of just problem solving and keeping cool. I think I would be- The situation I haven’t encountered yet that I think might make me nervous is like, you can dive under an oil platform, right, and oil platforms go very deep. Like, way deeper than you can scuba dive. But there’s no bottom to it, right? Every place I’ve dove. Dived? Yeah. Which one is it? Yeah, both. This seems like something we should know. Dove. Deep dived. Dove? Dove. Dive? Scuba dove. See, that sounds horrible. Scuba dove? Dive. I scuba dove? No, you scuba dived. Well, once you dive, you’ve dove. It says both are acceptable. Both are acceptable. See. But Dove is more frequently used in the United States and Canada, whereas dived is more common outside of North America. Yeah, but in the context of scuba, We’re in North America. it’s probably scuba dived. I know, but that’s, you know. So. And Chase wants to do a oil platform dive because there’s lots of- I want do it all. In fact, I was watching Instagram, TikTok something, I don’t know, and the guy was like, you know, there’s people who live and work on oil platforms and they make TikTok accounts, of course, because it’s an interesting lifestyle. What else are they gonna do? And they said this is- I saw one that was like, this is what happens when you throw a piece of bread or something off of an oil platform. And he threw it off. All right, guys. And immediately, hundreds of little fish went up to it and started eating it, and then within five seconds, a big shark came and ate a bunch of the fish. And so it was kind of like, this is what’s happening on an oil platform because stuff falls off of it. Stuff grows on the platform. There’s a lot of interesting fish. It’s a little ecosystem. But there’s no bottom to it. The bottom is a mile deep. You’re afraid of the abyss. Well, because you’ve got weights on you. Now I haven’t had any trouble with, like, regulating my buoyancy Buoyancy. to the point where I would be really nervous about that. Also, I know where to grab to pull the weights off so you go back to the surface. But I think that just looking down and seeing the abyss, which I’ve never seen, I suspect that that’s gonna be unsettling. Like, if I go down there, it’s lights out, man. Literally. Let’s find out. I mean, let’s not talk about the submersible. I don’t want to bring that into this. What are you talking about? Jenna, have we sold scuba diving to you? I mean, are you open to this? You’re a bit of a risk taker. I am. Yeah, I am open to scuba diving. Even after the way Rhett talks about it? Yeah. He’s such a Debbie downer. I’m having the time of my life. And you wouldn’t know it. But what I’ll tell you. What I did not have the time of my life doing is being on the boat. But before that return trip, something highly unusual that I don’t think we have an appreciation for, because this is actually my Norm. first ever trip scuba diving that required boating to any place. And something happened to us that Hal said has only happened to him once in 30 years of scuba diving. We saw a shark wiener. Well, technically, you would see two because they have two penises. That’s amazing. But that’s not what we saw. They were given an alert that there was a sighting. And so then they said, we’re gonna take a little detour before we do our third dive and we’re gonna go over here. And when we got over to the spot, which was more in the middle of the ocean, not close to any of the islands, there was another boat there with like a lot of people spectating on it and then we saw… I’ll let you say it. Orcas. A freaking pod of killer whales. We saw just a bunch of killer whales and me and Shepard, they were like, you want to go around to the front of the boat? And you’re, you were on the top. But Shepard and I walked around to the front to, like, the bow of the boat. And we’re looking over and we’re seeing, they’re, like, surfacing. And it was like, oh, here’s two little Shamu and then a baby. Well, don’t say Shamu. Not Shamu. These are very much not Shamu. I wish it was. These are free, wild. Oh yeah. No bending of the dorsal fin. Fin. Fully erect dorsal fin. And the boat positions itself such that these two killer whales go right in front of the boat. And I’m looking, I’m seven feet above these killer whales, like, going right in front of the boat. It was a thrill. And then I looked out there and there were some other ones out there that were absolutely huge. They’re so big. And people were scrambling to, like, take pictures and video and we don’t have any of that to show for it, because I didn’t wanna miss any of it. And I knew I after, you know, I knew that I wasn’t gonna get anything worth of crap. You know what killer whales look like. You can watch videos of ’em. You don’t need to see ours. Now, It was pretty magical. This is kind of- The two in the front were absolutely gargantuan. I haven’t really let this sink in, but you realize this is the exact same spot That you saw the blue whale. That I saw, like, three blue whales last time in my only ever whale watching. I’ve got whale luck. I’ve got whale luck. Yeah, you’re the whale boy. And that’s why I got, I mean, I’ve been at talking about, I got two ideas for my next tattoo and one of them is a big whale skeleton. A whale boy. But maybe I’ll do both of them. But yeah, I saw blue whales, which was highly unusual. There’s only like 15,000 of these things and the world. And then seeing orcas in California is pretty rare according to these folks who go out to this area. And there was this added tension because if you’ve been following the news, you know that the orcas in, I think maybe it’s the Straits of Gibraltar, So over there on the other side of the world, they’ve been orcanizing. Yeah. And attacking boats and taking the rudders off of boats. Not seeming like they want to kill the people on it, but seeming like they want to dismantle the boats Just immobilize the boat. And it’s become, and I don’t know a whole lot about it, but based on like secondhand information from my wife explaining a Twitter thread to me, just to contextualize how wrong this could be. That’s the best. Apparently there was one female orca that had a run in with a boat. Something that, you know, damaged her. And she has a personal vendetta against boats and she is spreading the word about how we gotta dismantle these boats. And that’s what’s happening. And if you think that that’s impossible, if you think that orcas cannot send that technical of a message to one another, you are highly likely wrong. I think that what we’re gonna find out about- According to third-hand information. I think what we’re gonna find out about whales is gonna blow your mind in terms of how smart they actually are and the level of communication they have. People are working to figure that out right now. But our boat didn’t have a rudder. No. They were just like, is this thing gonna try to take us out, ’cause the boat’s not very big. But that was when the captain said, our boat doesn’t have a rudder, it’s got a motor. And so we felt like we might be okay. That was the thrill. That was the thing we were building up to. I’ll tell you another thrill that we need to build up. “Good Mythical Evening” is happening again. We just wanna throw a little plug in here. What’s the date of this bad boy? The 24th. Thursday, whatever that Thursday is. Thursday, August 24th. Thursday, August 24th at, what’s the time? It’s right here. 7:00 PM Pacific. 7:00 PM Pacific. That would be, Which is 10:00 PM Eastern, live streaming on Kiswe. Get your tickets at GoodMythicalEvening.com. We’re doing things a little bit different this year. You have a big, big part because we’re do- It’s “Good Mythical Evening,” pain versus pleasure, or pain or pleasure. And you’re gonna be able to vote live in a number of ways that determine whether or not we or one of us or both of us experiences pain or pleasure at different points throughout the evening. So it’s all gonna be on you. The level of entertainment has nothing to do with us. It’s all to do with you. It’s still from the GMM set but entirely new, not safe for work segments, one right after another. Just mounted on top of each other, if you know what I mean. And did I mention that we’re still gonna be drunk? Yep. We’re gonna be quite inebriated and subject to your quims. So there’s different types of tickets. The t-shirt is awesome. It’s sort of a little- You can that and a couple of them, a couple of different ticket packages. And also for the first time ever, we’re doing a little partnership with Alamo Drafthouse, like our favorite music, favorite movie theater, you know, where you go and you can like eat and watch a movie at the same time and we just love the vibe there. And you can drink there. Yeah. They’ll serve you beers- At select locations around the US, you’re gonna be able to watch “Good Mythical Evening” there with other mythical beasts. Highly limited. Those are gonna go out… So get those tickets quickly to have this “Good Mythical Evening” communal experience at an Alamo Drafthouse near you. Or watch from the comfort of wherever you want to watch us just get hammered and unfettered. But it we’re gonna be totally safe about it. It’s just gonna be totally unhinged. GoodMythicalEvening.com. “Ear Biscuits” is brought to you by BetterHelp. You know, one of the aspects of adulting is making decisions. Figuring out- Or how you’re gonna navigate things. And, you know, a lot of us just kind of stay in our own heads and try to figure it out there. I did that for a very long time and maybe I would consult with a friend here or there. But therapy was not only transformational in helping me approach things from like a, you know, access my emotions in new ways. But when it just comes to those decisions about tough life stuff, Right. Having a qualified, wise person to talk through things, sometimes simply saying something out loud and hearing someone’s perspective on it is enough to send you in a certain direction. And that’s been a really beneficial part of therapy for me. I like what you said about getting outta your head. For me to, like, actually talk it out of my head, and verbally has been tremendously helpful. And hey, we recommend therapy for you. If you’re thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It’s entirely online. It’s designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Let therapy be your map with better help. Visit BetterHelp.com/ear today to get 10% off your first month. That’s BetterHelp, H-E-L-P, dot com /ear. “Ear Biscuits” is supported by Factor. You know, I’m a busy man. You’re so busy. I’m married to a busy woman. Oh, she’s so busy. We have busy kids. They’re so busy. Everybody has to eat, Link. I think that what we’re after is we’re after convenience. Yes. Quickness. But also like good taste and health. Those are the things that we’re after when it comes to our meals. I feel that and I don’t like making a decision ’cause then I revert to just going through a drive-through. Let’s talk about Factor, America’s number one ready to eat meal kit. It can help with your decisions and your nutritions and your eatings with ready-to-eat meals delivered straight to your door. So far, I have had a few things. I had this chipotle with pork chop. Mmm-mmm-mmm, very good. I had some sun dried tomato chicken. Okay. And just very kind of- I was floored with how it was literally like, I looked at the instructions. It was like, pierce the film. Heat it up. Heat up for two minutes. in your microwave. Now, it’s not… It’s fresh. It’s never frozen. And the meals are ready to eat in just two minutes of heating. And so if you’re on the go, they have effortless wholesome meals like grain bowls and salad toppers that are ready to eat when you’re on the go. No microwave required. And they’ve got calorie smart meals and protein plus meals. So no more than 550 calories per serving. Serving, heh heh. And 30 grams of protein or more. And Factor offsets 100% of their delivery emissions sources. 100% renewable electricity for production sites and offices and features sustainably sourced seafood in the meals. So head to FactorMeals.com/ear50 and use code EAR50 to get 50% off. That’s a lot of percentage off. That’s code EAR50 at FactorMeals.com/ear50 to get 50% off. To wrap up the scuba trip. The scuba dive. I thought we already did. No we didn’t because you’ve got photo evidence that I’ve seen that’s pretty funny, of my trip back. So once we started going back, Yeah, that’s right. It did not look good. Once we started going back, I don’t think we can communicate just how unexpectedly and suddenly rough the trip was. When we started to take off, it was like boom. And you were in the freaking bathroom at the time. I was trying to change clothes and- I was having trouble staying in the boat. Here I am, naked, trying to pee in a toilet ’cause I had- Well, I had a new wetsuit. I didn’t pee in it. Well, you had a semi-dry suit, so it’s a little bit different than peeing in a wetsuit. Exactly. Yeah. It was tough to not vomit. I gave my yellow offerings to Poseidon. When I came up and got up top, yeah, you were quiet. I peed, like, six times. You were staring off into the distance and you didn’t look good. So I took a little picture. Well, it’s an hour trip back and it was- it didn’t let up at all. And here’s the thing, it wasn’t like… I’ve had miserable seasickness before. Like when I got in the paper for catching that 55-pound amberjack when I was, like, in ninth grade. And I did throw up that day. It wasn’t that. I knew I wasn’t gonna vomit. But I was like, I’m gonna be uncomfortable until we get back and I’m just gonna have to sort of sit here and take it. Yeah. And so I did that. I just sit sat there and took it. And you took a a pretty good picture. I mean, it seemed like it was like… I thought you had, like, done some post-work on that picture based on the picture. Really? I was like, that’s a good looking picture. I mean, I hope showing it now where . I didn’t think anything of it. It’s just like I just snapped- It’s a cool picture. Oh, I just snapped a shot. I mean, I looked like an idiot. I just wanted to make sure that I remember that moment, if none other, you know. Forget the killer whales. I want to get a shot of this giant being miserable on a boat. Yeah. It’s funny ’cause I don’t get cars sick. You get car sick, but you don’t get seasick. I get seasick. I don’t get car sick. What’s the deal with that? Well, you’re just giving yourself permission. You shouldn’t do that. You think I’m giving my- Are you giving yourself permission to get car sick? Yeah, because that allows me to, like, sit in the front seat and be like, you know, I get car sick. Can I sit in the front? But is there something physiological happening that I don’t understand. Well, it’s certainly a different motion. Motion in the ocean. Yeah. It’s different from the motion on the roadcean. Let’s skip to the river though, ’cause I want to get to this. Okay. Highly recommend scuba diving. You may remember that last year we went whitewater rafting with our college buddies who we had reconnected with really through our Spiritual Deconstruction episodes. We started reconnecting. Pandemic hit right on the heels of that. So, like, we just really reconnected over the course of pandemic. We put that into physical action of being on a trip together. That was a weird sentence. And now it’s year two. We’re getting some college buddy momentum. Yeah. I mean, and we decided on the first trip. We’re gonna do this again. We need to learn from, you know. Our whitewater rafting was kind of boring. And I was like, we’re gonna do something better this time. So, like, nine months in advance, we started planning and I started looking at what’s something that’s a more exciting thing? And we settled on doing whitewater rafting again because the first time it was just lackluster. We wanted to make it more intense and we wanted to move it up a little bit in the year, because we learned that most of the whitewater acting that happens in Colorado is due to the snow melt. So if you wait till July- If you wait till July, mid-July, which we did last time, you’re gonna get, like, little piddling stuff. Also this year, crazy snow pack, right? So there’s just so much snow in the Rockies. So there was lots of talk about how intense this was gonna be. And this is something that once I saw that you were very, like, you were just like, I had nothing to do with it. I’m gonna figure this out. You were, like, totally committed to being, like, we’re gonna figure out where we’re gonna go And this is not gonna be boring. And I was like, okay, yeah, I’m totally down. We didn’t plan enough stuff the first time. We were like, well, you know, we ended up just riding scooters around downtown. It was lame. Well, we did some good stuff. I disagree with your assessment. I know, I know. You did complain about- We were having a great day that one day on those bikes, Everyone was talking about how fun of a time they were having and how beautiful this town of Golden Colorado was. And you just kept talking about all the things you didn’t like about what’s happening. Well, that’s ’cause I learned it from you and how you talk about scuba diving. Oh, come on. In the moment, I don’t say a damn thing. I only talk about it on the podcast. I was shit talking the scooter, not the e-biking. Okay. So I’m like googling the most exciting whitewater rafting. Yeah, I might have put it in the term extreme and I might have put it in the term like class fives and class fours. I don’t want no class threes or class twos anymore. And we have done class fives before. I mean, 20 years ago in the Upper Gauley in West Virginia. Right, ’cause I’m like, you know, we can do this. And Greg was with us then. But once you got the trip set up, where my anxiety began to brew a little bit, and I typically don’t get- I don’t get scared about doing things. I get sort of properly concerned, but I’m not, like, scared. I’m just kind of like, is this dumb? And when I asked that question, it was because I’ve been whitewater rafting quite a bit, but never have they asked us to show up a day early to do a test. I mean, I’ve been on the Upper Gauley. They didn’t ask us to do a swim test. And they were like, you gotta come the day before. We’re gonna put you in the boat. We’re gonna do a swim test. We’re gonna take you down a rapid. It’s planned for two hours. You’re going what? Meaning you’re gonna- Pre raft. Intentionally jump out of the raft and then swim. And they wanted to verify To prove to them that you could do it. That you could swim. That you can pull each other back into the boat. Because obviously, if you fall out, you want to get back into the boat. So it’s an assessment so they can say, yeah, you guys are not ready. This was in Durango, Colorado in the Animas River, Upper Animas. And the Upper Animas, it was just like, there was a trip that was class fives and class fours. And I was like, yes, this is what we’re gonna do. And then it was, you do a day of rafting and then you camp on the side of the river and then you get up the next morning and you keep going on class fours and class threes the rest of the way. And I was like, yes. We may be swinging the pendulum too far the other direction, but we’re not gonna be saying that we didn’t get a thrill out of this trip. And I felt good about that. Everybody else had a lot of questions, especially when they started scheduling the swim test like you said. And everybody was a little bit, I don’t know. I didn’t want to camp. I mean, let’s just be honest. I’ve got a bad back that I actually keep, pretty ready for anything. But what can happen is if I have a bad night’s sleep, I can wake up and it can feel really bad. And the idea of camping Yeah. In a tent and then getting up and going on this river after having been on the river, I was a little bit like, I’m not gonna be, what is it called when they bring a helicopter to get you? Airlifted? Yeah, I’m gonna be airlifted because of a lower back injury. Well, because the terrain was such that they- We went to a train station and we loaded, like, the deflated rafts and everything and, well, we had guides who did all of this and we just watched and we’re like, yeah, go for it. They definitely did. And then we get on this train and we ride up this train track into the wilderness, into the middle of nowhere. There’s no accessibility except for the train track. There’s no roads, there’s nothing. So you’re exactly right. You would have to be train pulled out or airlifted out. If it’s beyond the train track, which a good part of it was, I think it would’ve been a chopper situation. So I think that’s why they wanna make sure if you’re, hey, if we’re taking these chumps out into the wilderness, you gotta make sure that they can get us back down this river. Every time we would talk about it in the thread, I felt like I would have to say now, people would raise concerns and I’d be like, now we’re not backing out. We’re still doing it. Everybody was we’re still doing it. We’re still doing it. I was watching the flow rate of the river because in doing a little bit of reading, I was like, wow, when this river flows above this certain number, it can be dangerous. People have died. And it was flowing at that rate and it was going a little bit above it and a little bit below it in like the weeks leading up. And so I was just like, I’m still gonna do this. I’m not gonna back out and I don’t think anybody in our group is gonna pull the cord. Yeah. And nobody did, but there was mounting concern about the conditions and also the camping situation. Yeah. I was mostly concerned about two days, you know, and overnight. Ugh. But I wasn’t backing out either ’cause I was talking big. And then four days or so Balls to the wall. before we leave, we get the news that our trip has been canceled completely. The rafting part. The rafting company has canceled our trip. And the tragic reality is that a guide died on the river. So, you know, our hearts go out to the family and all the people, you know. And then we were like, okay, so now what do we do? Well, there’s one other company in town. We’ll rebook with them. Well… But we’re like, all right. Let’s slow our- This is a good opportunity to, like, assess. Maybe we should take a beat and think about this. So we went with, we were Mild to Wild. We appreciate the responsibility they took in saying, you know what? It’s best if we cancel this trip. So we took a beat and we said, all right, we’re gonna call up Mountain Waters Rafting, and take their suggestion, which was let’s forget the overnight camping. I also don’t think that they had that option. I think fate helped this decision be made. It was like, there’s a trip that is the lower half of the Upper Animas. So the part that- Just a one day. Right after the camping No overnight. would’ve happened, and one class four to start. So yeah, let’s do that. Let’s do that. So we booked that and I feel like that was a great choice. ‘Cause we had an Airbnb, why not stay in that instead of, like, camp on the ground and do two full days of this thing? So we get out there. Mountain Waters, shout out to you guys. Did an awesome job. We had an amazing time. But we get out there and of course we had done the swim test with them still for the lower half of the upper Animas, the night before, the day before. And boy that water is cold. And that water was not half as cold as it was up there when we started, because every- They said it was 38 degrees. Yeah, he said every single drop of water that we will be rafting in today was snow yesterday. Yeah and we were wearing wetsuits, but… We were wearing wetsuits with, like, another jacket over it. 38 degree. Like, it’s so bracingly cold. You don’t really want to fall in and- And when it just splashes up and like one drop hits your face, it’s… Yeah. And it and more than one drop hits your face, like every… It was so intense, so consistently intense in whitewater the whole way ’cause the thing dropped so much. Yeah. That you are getting wet the entire time. You don’t have a lot of time to think about how cold you are though. No, because from the moment we put in, the moment we got out, like you said, just constant waves of whitewater, no reprieve. Yeah. And I was in the front of the boat with Greg and two other people. And then you, Tim and Harm were in the another boat ’cause they had to split us up. And so I enjoyed watching you guys go down and like, I mean, it was like riding a buck and bronco. Yeah. I mean, and there would be these huge like waves that would just be churning and we would just nose first, boom, into these things, just hitting walls of river waves that just splash you in the face and try to knock you out of the boat. And it was relentless and absolutely amazing. And scenic too, because it’s complete wilderness. Oh, it’s so beautiful. You don’t see anybody driving a car on a road by you. You might see a train, the train go by. I don’t remember even seeing the train going by. It might have, but we ain’t gonna stop and look at a train. I’m looking at this whitewater. We’re on a train. It was exactly the level that I was hoping for. And I didn’t ever feel like my life was in danger. The only thing I felt, because the very first rapid was the class four, was the most intense. Yeah. Talk about a start. The very first time we went up on this wave and then came down and the boat kind of like slaps down and you kind of collapse, that’s when I started thinking, how am I gonna do this without hurting my back, right? Because you’re supposed to tell ’em if you’ve got back problems. I never do, you know. What are they gonna do? When it comes to rollercoasters, whitewater rafting, et cetera, I don’t have back problems. Okay. When it comes to my actual reality, I do. When it comes to this podcast, you certainly do. But I don’t want to be limited from it. Oh, come on. Roll your eyes, dude. You know how much I would hear about it if you had the back issues that I have? It was my shoulders, you know. Oh yeah, your shoulder. Okay, so. Every time we would go like this, it would be like a little twinge. Compression. And I would be like, okay, I got to figure… That was the only thing I was thinking was like, I don’t want to get hurt and be compromised for the rest of this day. Yeah. And not be able to like paddle. Right? But once we got through that and I was like, okay, I think I’m gonna be okay. I had a blast the rest of the time. I wish I could go back to the class four knowing that I was gonna be okay and I would’ve enjoyed it a little bit more. I had a point a little over halfway in the trip where I was a little disappointed in myself because we’re going through these rapids and then it’s because it’s constant, I just found myself thinking like, what are we gonna do for dinner? What are we gonna do after dinner? Well, it’s hard to not want something that’s really fun, but a little bit uncomfortable to be over. To be thinking about . I mean, because we were cold, that was part of it. But just my mind wandering, I’m sitting here like paddling my ass off. My mind’s not there. Like, I was disappointed in myself. And it’s like, man, this is exactly what you had hoped for. It’s exceeding all your expectations, yet you’re sitting here thinking about It’s hard to be present. Just thinking about a sandwich. It’s hard to be present. Yeah. It kinda lull you into this place of like, rocking a baby to sleep almost, Well, I wasn’t about to go to sleep. In a tempest. You know, it’s like a baby sleeping in a tempest. That’s where I was. I just kind of, you know. Maybe it wasn’t quite enough for me. Nobody fell out. Maybe I needed to fall out, dude. I just feel like, it didn’t quite go extreme enough. So this is what I wanted- I just need to be jolted into my body. I need to be jolted and say, aye, you’re mortal. This is what I wanted to talk about. Because the extreme choices did not end with the whitewater rafting, right. The next day, we got on these side by side UTVs. Yeah, I was like, let’s do some- Which I had never been on before. Always wanted to. So again, these are like the dune buggies where you’re, like, two seats side by side. Essentially, you’re- There’s the top cage. There’s there’s a roll cage so that if you fly off, it’s not a four wheeler. And I booked this. Well, I asked Kara to book this and I said I want to do ATVing and I don’t want to guide. Yeah. Yeah, that was a good call. ‘Cause a guide, you gotta stay behind the guide and you gotta go where the guide goes and you gotta go to the speed of the guide. And the guide says things like, well, not just the guide, but the guys who oriented us to this were like, don’t do any drifting around the turns and all this stuff and, like, watch yourself around blind curves. ‘Cause we were gonna, the route was to go up this mountain. This was Purgatory, Purgatory Ski Resort, which in summer is just a beautiful mountainside where you can go mountain biking. You can go alpine rollercoaster riding. And you can ATV around on the whole thing. It’s absolutely beautiful out there. And a little bit, just a little bit of snow at the top. Yeah, which we made it all the- The route was to go all the way to where the snow was and we went beyond where we were supposed to go because we had gone pretty fast. We had three ATVs, UTVs. So I was like, I’ll go by myself for the first part. I found that an interesting choice ’cause the way that you presented it in the moment was that as you were making some kind of sacrifice to go by yourself and I was like, well, of course everyone wants to go by theirselves first. It’s funny. I’ll go by myself and drive first. Well, hold on. Really? No, I honestly think that’s how you see it. I think you must have seen it differently. When I was like, everyone- I didn’t think anybody want to be by themselves. Well, but hold on. There’s five guys. There’s three steering wheels. So by saying I’ll go by myself first, you’re guaranteeing that you get to drive first. Of course, nobody wants to be the passenger first. Yeah, I didn’t think of it that way. Well, clearly you didn’t think of it that way when you said, I was like, okay, Link. So. ‘Cause I want to be with people. I thought I was taking one for the team. It was clear in the way you presented it. And by the way, But you also wanted to drive. because I drove first, I drove on the more boring part when we started switching up. So I actually did take one for the team. Okay. That’s your perspective. That’s fine. What I’m saying is that Yeah, it is. What I’m saying is that when we- I was like, okay, who’s gonna be by themselves first because that person’s probably gonna end up driving more and they’re gonna get to drive from the beginning. I didn’t drive more. We ended up working out the math. We ended up working out the math so that it was even. And I also drove first with Greg? No. Tim. Tim is my passenger. We all switched it up so that everybody would be with everybody else. The one thing that I said from the top is like, I am not going to be a passenger while Link is driving. I didn’t hear you say that. I told everybody else. Oh. I just said, my only rule is I’m not going to be a passenger while he’s driving. Huh. Which proved to be, what is the word? Prophetic. What? What? So. You don’t have a perception of how you are, man. Like, you’ve lost your own plot when it comes to this kind of I am immortal. Risk taking thing. So, I mean, again, like breaking your pelvis. Balls to the wall. Breaking your shoulder. Balls to the wall. Like, there’s evidence of you, My back feels great. of you not calculating your own risk. And so, but what ended up happening… First of all, we’re going very fast. These things probably go 55 top speed. We’re getting above 50. I’m not listening to what the guy told me. I’m doing fishtailing and stuff all around these curves. It’s like the most fun thing, man. Yeah, and you were in front of me. Yes. And I saw you do that and I was like, good idea. It was so fun. I didn’t even… And it was a big, wide road. And these are giant, like, fire roads. There’s very little risk in it. Scoot scoot. Then there becomes this place where we transitioned to… We had switched actually twice by that point, but we got to a place where it became more of a trail. And now we’re in a mountain pass on this trail. And the trail is, you know, it’s no longer like a well kept road. It’s wet. It’s got giant potholes. It’s got a giant drop off on the side of the mountain all the way around, ’cause it’s like this switchback going up the mountain. And at this point, I’m driving by myself. You’re driving and Greg is your passenger and I’m behind you, and then Harm and Tim are behind me. Yeah. So at some point, like, the thing that’s so amazing about these UTVs is they’re so forgiving. The shocks are incredible. I’m like, why don’t they make shocks on cars like this? We could do anything we want. If you put shocks on cars like this- We need pavement. People would just be driving over medians. You can go like 50 miles an hour and hit a median. It’s like no big deal. It’s crazy the way these things forgive. What was that? Nothing. But what I was noticing was I was like going around some of these turns, like, there’s a bunch of blind turns. And by the way, there’s other people out there on vehicles. You come around these turns and you can’t see anything. Blind turns, and also every once in a while, come to like a big rock or a big dip or something and it would like really jar you. And you’re driving, like, you’re holding onto the wheel and you kind of anticipate it. I was behind you and I was going as fast as like, I was going a little bit faster than I was comfortable and felt was safe. I was like, this is a little too risky. I’m probably going too fast. I could not catch up with you and Greg. And so I thought to myself, I was like, I can only imagine what Greg is going through right now, because as a passenger, you don’t have any control. You just have to kind of, like, just close your eyes. So we get to the next part where we switch and this is where Greg is gonna come drive and I’m gonna be the passenger as we go down. Yeah. Greg, Greg, who’s quiet and didn’t say anything to you, Greg was like, I don’t know if I can drive. My nerves are shot. Really? He said, Link is a madman. Oh, poor Greg. And I was like, well, what did I tell you at the beginning of this? I’m not gonna be a passenger while he’s driving because he doesn’t have any- He was like, he went around every blind curve, completely pedal to the metal, never slowed down. He went around every blind curve, didn’t slow down at all. And he said he would come to these big rocks and stuff like, you know, there’s a couple places where like the the rock kind of coming down the side of the mountain become the trail, completely just a rock. There’s no traction on that. And he was like, he didn’t slow down on any of the rocks. He didn’t slow down at any moment. And I was like, yes, that’s why I said I wasn’t going to ride with him. Well, you know, it… So it’s interesting to me that you don’t have a perception that maybe what Greg was experiencing was pure terror the entire time. Well, let me give my perspective. Okay. First of all, the faster you go, the less you feel the bumps. Fact. And yes, that I did notice that- There was a pool of urine forming around Greg’s seat? I did notice at many points that Greg would eek out a sound. Is that right? And it was kind like, ah. It was kinda like that. Ah. I mean, every time he would go, ah, I would go . Like Mario. I thought we were both just having the time of our lives because I was. First of all, as a passenger, it’s tough because you’re not in control. So, like, I didn’t feel like- I was taking some of those turns and I was like, I am right on the edge of my comfort zone and I really hope there’s not somebody coming around. But the whole time I was just thinking, man, because I can’t catch up with him right now, I’m going so fast. He’s going faster than me and Greg’s in there. I was thinking that the whole time and I was like, I can’t wait to see what Greg says. I’m sorry Greg. It was fun though. Well, and when I would come around to turn and see, like, a long straightaway and I didn’t see you, I began to question. You started looking over the side. Yeah, I was like, if they go over the side, we’re not finding them today, because how are we gonna know where they went over? I mean, I didn’t get close to the edge. I was hugging the mountainside. And it was fun. It was fun. We may have not actually been in danger at any point. I’m just saying that to me, the fun- He did drive though. I completely understand how fun it is and, like, that’s the whole point of it. Like, the simulated or actual risk is part of the reward. Right? This is what daredevil stuff is all about. This is why Red Bull exists as a brand. The thing that’s interesting to me as is illustrated by the way that you just described it, is that you actually don’t have a perception of the risk. Like, it doesn’t register with you that like, oh, I’m doing something very dangerous. When I’m doing it, the whole time I’m thinking this could be a life-changing thing. Like, I could make a mistake on this and go right off this thing or come around this turn and run somebody head on. The rest of my life is gonna be different. But then I’m like, but I’m having more fun than that concern. The fun is outweighing the concern. My perception of you is that there’s no concern. The concern is completely absent. I do think that I am a best case scenario, boy. You’re a whale boy. I’m a best case scenario boy, as opposed to a worst case scenario. And it’s probably people all along the spectrum and that’s probably. So yeah. It’s kind of a downer to think about the worst case scenario. Well, let me just be clear. I do think that- On the spectrum of people, I’m on the end of not taking a lot of risks, doing risky things. I don’t constantly think about the worst case scenario. I’m not an Enneagram 6, I don’t think. I don’t not do things, because… I don’t worry about my life. It’s just when I’m doing risky things, I’m like, I want to do this in a responsible way. I was very confident in my ability. That’s what Greg- I wish I could’ve recorded the things that Greg said when he got into the, and was slowly coming back to normal as he was driving down the mountain. He said something about your confidence. I think it may have been blind confidence. I feel like I’m a good extreme driver, you know. I’m sure you are. We just drove and drove back from visiting Lily, and it was like six-hour drive and, you know. Six hours can turn into eight or it can turn into five depending on how you drive. And Kristy doesn’t like to drive. And I was like, you know what? You’re sleepy. Just go to sleep. And I kept looking over at her and a couple times she’d tried to go to sleep and then I’d look at her again and she’d be wide awake again. And I guess she’s learning not to say anything to me. I’m an aggressive driver, but I couldn’t help but notice that every time I would switch lanes, Kristy would look in the mirror. Kristy would always look in the mirror to see if- And I didn’t say anything to her. I was like, well, you know, if she wants to, She’s not relaxed. If she wants to help, she can help. But I mean, we got there in record time. We got back in record time. I mean, it was kind of your fault. I mean, you called us up and you’re like, hey, if you get back in time, I’m slow roasting a pork butt. I’m making some barbecue. I was like, mmm. Best case scenario boy’s gotta get back for that barbecue. That’s the best case scenario. And boy, I made it back in under five hours. Four something. It was awesome. And your wife had a great- But she wore out that side mirror just looking into it. You didn’t talk to about it? No, there’s nothing to be said. Nothing to be said. So I believe in taking risks. I was watching this TikTok. I didn’t think I was taking a risk and I think that’s your point. I felt like I was in a safe, fun zone. I wasn’t gonna go off the mountain. When you go around a blind turn, balls to the wall without slowing down at all, when we’re on kind of like almost a single track thing at that point when there’s other UTVs coming down the hill, like, why do you not slow down? Because I was going, well, ’cause I was really hugging the right. But do you think- And I think if anybody’s coming around the curve… But when you’re doing that, are you thinking to your yourself, are you pushing it outta your mind that maybe somebody could be coming around? Like, is that gonna ruin it for you if you think about it? I’m just like, I’ll… It’s unlikely that it’s gonna happen. Yeah, it’s very unlikely and I can react and they’re probably going- They’re not gonna be coming around that close to me. Unless they’re you. Yeah. Unless they’re me. Right, right, right. Exactly. So if it’s another you, I’m counting on me being one of a kind. So if you are coming down, you’re not gonna be hugging the outside of the mountain. You’re gonna be on the inside coming down because that’s the safe spot in terms of the slope, right? I mean, we met one other ATV going up, and I passed ’em. Listen, I didn’t slow… When you stopped, I probably caught up with you in like 60 to 90 seconds. But I’m just saying that, like, when I got to a blind curve, I wouldn’t just say, pedal to the metal. I would just take a little bit off and then I’d come around and I’d be like, Link has to not be letting up at all. And then Greg was like, he would pedal to the metal around every blind curve. I’m a little bit worried If it had a horn, I probably would’ve blew it. I’m a little bit worried about you because you do, I mean, you have a history of breaking bones. I saw a TikTok of a guy doing something that I would never do. Okay. He was at the Grand Canyon and he was like, ready? And then he, like, takes a four-step running thing and then he jumps over the railing and to land on the other side, which from the angle of the camera, you couldn’t see that there was ground on the other side of the railing. But the thing that he didn’t take into account was that the ground on the other side of the railing was sloped Back towards the drop off. Yeah. Into the Grand Canyon. So the dude goes over the rail and then he’s like, got this smile on his face, like, gotcha. And then as he lands, he tumbles. Tumble, tumble, tumble. And then the woman, his wife, his loved one, whatever, who’s videoing this is like, ah. And then he is like, he couldn’t have gotten any closer without just going over. But he saved himself. Well, he stopped. He stopped almost falling. Yeah. I would never do that. I mean, that is patently stupid, and that’s different. Yeah, because you don’t wanna go rock climbing. You’ve never expressed a desire to go sky skydiving. I actually, I want to skydive. Shephard really wants to skydive. So I’m probably gonna do that with him at some point. Yeah. I mean, I like driving. ‘Cause I do feel like I’m not, like, a total idiot. It’s not about being an idiot. That’s not what I’m saying. I’m just saying that… I didn’t totally disengage my brain. When someone else is experiencing it with you, they are perceiving the danger. And then when I bring this up to you, you’re like, what? Greg was having, like, Greg was scared? That was it seemed like it was a surprise to you and it wasn’t a surprise to me at all as the person driving behind you. I was like, Greg’s fucking, like, shitting his pants right now. Yeah. I did notice there were no high fives. But again, to bring it back to the fact that we have, you know, all these things that we’re talking about doing that are fun, are different levels of danger. And I’m all for it. Last time we talked about this, when we quantified what are the most dangerous things we do, that’s when I broke my collarbone after that. Yeah, I’m not comfortable having this conversation ’cause you’re jinxing it. No, no. I just think that- You’re actually willing my injuries. Well, the balls to the wall mental- So it’s not, don’t do the things. It’s just this like, okay, there are certain moments in which pulling back a little bit is gonna drastically decrease chances of something going sideways. But I don’t think you should not do it. You may have seen, there’s a genre of TikTok that usually is from like a brain doctor and they say things like 10 things that I would not do as a brain doctor. I guess that’s a neurologist. Okay. And then they begin to list things and, you know, some of it is stuff that I also wouldn’t do. But then some of it’s things like, well… I don’t know what- I mean, if it was like 10 things I wouldn’t do as a safety specialist. I don’t know why… Never ride a motorcycle. Oh, because of the brain injury. Yeah, they’re just, like, riding a motorcycle, not worth the risk and I’m like, okay, well, I don’t know exactly how much I agree with that. Like, my wife doesn’t want me to ride a motorcycle. And so I’m just like, okay, I don’t really want to ride a motorcycle enough to begin that discussion. But maybe if it was like, okay, well we’re gonna rent these dirt bikes and go through this desert thing on these dirt bikes and I’d be like, okay, I’ll do that. But, like, I’m gonna ride my motorcycle across the country on roads with cars on them that will annihilate me if I run into them. Okay. Maybe that’s not a risk I want to take. What I found myself thinking is I don’t agree with living like this because I could die by, like, just some weird thing falling on me that I have no control over, you know? So I’m not gonna completely try to eliminate risk. I’m just gonna try to be like, okay, well… And I think one of the things that I think, with things like whitewater rafting and the UTVing, I’m like, this is something that normal people pay for on a daily basis. Like, every single day, these guys take a group of people of various athletic inclination out onto this river to do this thing. I’m not Alex Honnold trying to like be the first guy to free solo El Capitan, you know. So if I’m doing something that’s, I’m not the first one to do it, then I think I’m gonna be okay. That’s my general- And then when I’m doing it, maybe I’ll do it in a way that, like, takes into account the risk. Like, the most risky thing that we did I think was a UTVing because that was the point in which we weren’t in control. Rafting, that guide, we could be four dead bodies and that guide would be okay. Right. He doesn’t really need us to paddle. It just makes us feel like we’re getting our money’s worth. That’s my theory at least. Probably wrong. Well, I think with the weight, you’d have to paddle. You gotta do some paddling, but he could probably get through. So was whitewater rafting on the neurologist list? No. Was UTV? No, the only motor sport was a motorcycle. I don’t remember the other things. But just the the point being, I’m not gonna live- Repeatedly banging your head against a locker? I’m not gonna live in such a way. Oh, she was like, I would never let my child play tackle football before the age of 14. So it wasn’t like I’ll never let my kid play tackle football period. It was just definitely not before the age of 14. Which, you know, if I had kids who really wanted to play football, I’d probably try to deter it. But I think calculated risk is- I mean, these things are fun for a reason. It’s the same reason I like horror movies. ‘Cause I’m like, I’m not going to die. That demon is not gonna possess me. It’s gonna possess that person on the screen, and unless Brian the Exorcist is right and just going to the movie is a problem. I think the calculated in the, like the word calculated in front of risk, maybe I’ll think about that. Yeah. Because as someone who’s just watching from the outside, it feels like once you’ve committed to the activity, like, there was a calculation that led to you making the decision to do it, and then once you’re in- I’m wearing the helmet. And then once you’re in the middle of it, I’m wearing the seatbelt. Calculating risk at this point may hinder my funds. So I ain’t gonna be thinking about that while I’m out here. We’ll just deal with. We’ll deal with it if it happens. Is that an accurate description of what’s going on? Maybe, maybe. It takes work and it’s not fun work to calculate. Well, I don’t think I spent too much time doing it. To me it was just like- That’s how it feels to me. To me, it was I’m describing my perception. The blind turns. Okay, what could happen around this turn? What can happen? Yeah, right. You don’t wanna think that. You wanna think I’m gonna go around this turn as fast as I can. Yeah. I mean, I was looking. Well, good. Good. And if you had have been with Harm or Tim or- You weren’t gonna be with me ’cause I already said, I ruled it out in the beginning. I just did not know that. Well, it’s funny that you, like… And the reason I didn’t I didn’t hear you say it. want to do it. The reason I didn’t want to do it is just, like, I don’t want to have a conflict with him on this trip about that. Like, if I’m in the passenger seat and I start trying to tell you how to drive, you’re gonna get really mad at me. And it’s like, I’m not gonna do that. I’ll let somebody else do it, and Greg’s not gonna say anything. But Tim- Oh, well no. Greg said a lot of the same thing. Ah. Tim or Harm probably would’ve been like, slow down, man. It’s a blind freaking turn. Greg had a great time. Point taken, point taken. I mean, I think he had Sorry, Greg. a great time. Sorry, Greg. The thing is once you live through it… and you’re welcome. Quite a thrill, right? Yeah, once you live through it, it’s like, well, that was a lot of fun. Yeah. Clean out your britches and mail me a check. My favorite memory was the most, you know, innocuous part. We’re gathered around the fire pit. The first night, we’re catching up. It’s nice to, like, reconnect with our college buddies. We all have our, who we are to everybody. And then there’s like, our friends are professionals. I feel like they can come, they can hang out with us and they can just be, they can just let loose. Professionals. Yeah. We’re all professionals. We’re not professionals, but they are. What do you mean by that? They have reputable jobs. Okay. Where people trust and respect them. They contribute to society. And we don’t? Well, we do, but it’s in kind of a kooky entertaining kind of way. It’s not in like a- It’s not professional at all. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they could all be members of the Chamber of Commerce, you know. But then they come out with us, and where it’s like, hey, look at us. We’re college boys again. But poor Tim. Poor Tim could not get from New York State to Durango. His last flight, he just couldn’t get on it. He was like, well, I could come the next day and I could miss the first night. He ended up deciding, and we all agree, this is the best decision. He drove from Denver. Instead of getting the flight to Durango, he rented a car and he drove six hours to meet up with us that night. And it was after a long day of flying and he was gonna be there at like 1:30 AM. And first of all, I mean, we were hedging at the top of this I mean, I felt kind of bad. Like I thought maybe I didn’t know if it was my allergies or if I was coming down with something. And then we had a long day of flying and I ain’t got a lot of sleep that week trying to get ready for the trip. I was like, I think I’ll probably be in bed. By the time you show up after driving six hours, Tim. But then as the four of us were kind of around the fire outside and we were like, let’s check in with Tim. At that point, once we checked in with him and he’s driving and we’re like, how you doing? Like, you falling asleep? He says, well, you know, it’s tough to stay awake, but talking to you guys is really helping. We put the phone in a chair, in the empty chair. His chair. And we just included him in the conversation for a few hours until he got there. But he was going, when you drive from Denver to Durango, which first of all I think during the day would’ve been a beautiful drive. Right. He couldn’t see shit the whole time. Right. But all he knew was that he was going into mountain passes and he would be like, I’m going into a mountain pass. And he would just go away. We would keep talking. 15 to 20 minutes later, he’d be like, oh, Tim’s calling. I’m back. And he is like, I’m going into a mountian pass. That was one of my favorite memories was just the fact that we were reconnecting and we were kind of his lifeline. Like, keep coming, Tim. We’re here for you. You can make it. But it was almost like, as long as I didn’t look at the phone, at some points it was like he was already there. Yeah. And then I looked over there at Tim, to see what he thought about something and just be like a little phone propped up. It was very strange. It’s kind of like… I mean, as we continue to get together year after year with our college buddies, you know, we’ll start dying. And then I guess as we’ve discussed, if we keep getting together as college buddies, I’m gonna kill one of us. Also, I didn’t want Greg’s blood on your hands because you would never, ever forgive yourself. That would be pretty bad. That’s the thing I need to think about. But then we would just have Greg’s personality on a phone device. An app. Yeah. We’ll have it on a device and we can put- We’ll always put all of our college buddies in a chair to be a part of the conversation. But it will be an AI representation. It’ll be just basically the same. Yeah. So that’s what we’re gonna do. Tim did eventually show up and we stayed awake for him. And I will say, But we were like, bless his heart. Bless his heart. He had a real tough time getting back. He got back like a day and a half after everyone else because of flight issues The same thing going back. Yeah. We got home that night. So Tim took several Two days later, he’s like, I got home. I was like, what? Yeah, Tim took several things for the team. Thankfully, he did not have to be the passenger in your UV as well. Now, one of the things that I really appreciate about this group of guys is first of all, you know, very similar life stage. We all got married within a couple of years of one another. All had kids in the same general, like, five to 10 year period or so. We’re all kind of dealing with, you know, anywhere from college student to, you know, middle schooler. Everything in-between. Everybody has been married for over 20 years. 20 years or so. Yeah. And to all the, you know, the women that we all knew back in the day and it’s like, you know, I’ve said this before, when we talk about our background being involved in, you know, Campus Crusade, Campus ministry is like one of the positives. I think I’ve firmly established what I feel the negatives are. So, you know, I’ve talked about that a lot. But one of the positives about that, about being in a group, that there was this intentional community, but also this intentional like, hey, get inside somebody’s soul a little bit, you know, as a friend. It’s not just about, Hey, what can we do together? Let’s party. It’s about how can we do life together? How can we be there for one another, right? And so that, even though we’re all in different places in terms of where we’ve kind of landed spiritually, that connection remains. And you can have a conversation about anything, and we’re all able to kind of talk about what we’re going through in life right now and then be this, like, supportive group for one another. I don’t know. I’m not in any other… We’ve been blessed with being a part of groups of friends where that type of vulnerability and encouragement is kind of part of it. It isn’t just with those guys, it’s kind of been represented in most or all of the meaningful adult friendships that we’ve had with other guys. Yeah. I have to assume that that’s not super typical for guys who get together. Yeah. So I’m very thankful for it. It was kind of baked into us as part of our church experience. That I think it’s, you know, it’s a level of connection. You set the bar at a certain place in terms of like community and connection, that’s still very important to us and defines a robust friendship. If you can’t really go there, then you’re left thinking, well, when something goes wrong in my life, they’re gonna wanna be here for me. But what’s that gonna be like, you know? Then we start talking about these things. I mean, I think there are friends that, you know, your friends can surprise you in those moments. I would hope that everybody would have a friend that even if they don’t get really deep all the time, that they would be there for ’em. But I do think that that’s kind of like, that’s a standard that we bring into what makes the most meaningful of friendships is that you can talk about anything and exhibit care and listen. And I think one of the really beautiful things about it as well is that while we are at different, we landed in different places. We have different world views. No one is trying to, or no one is trying to change anybody else’s mind. No one is like actively, like, we don’t feel like we are projects for these guys and they don’t feel like they are projects for us. Definitely. It’s about the connection, right? And it’s very hopeful, right? Well, but when you leave the church… I mean, I know so many people whose friendships have been so redefined because one of the things that happens so often when you leave the church is that, well, first of all, most often, you’re kind of just shunned and you’re kind of held up as this example of what could go wrong. And then people try to find things about your story and your circumstances to serve as like, you know, warnings for other people. But another thing that happens is that even when the relationships continue, it’s very clear, like as someone who’s been on the inside, someone who’s been in the church, who’s been an evangelical Christian, who’s been like very focused on changing people’s minds and sharing the gospel with people, all your relation- It’s just like, you know, in one sense, it’s kind of like when you’re involved in a pyramid scheme and all your relationships become about you getting people to be a part of your thing, right. It’s, like, you can’t have a conversation without wanting to, like, sell Mary Kay to somebody. Well, sometimes it becomes like, you can’t have a conversation without wanting to sell Jesus to somebody. And, like, that makes relationships awkward, and it seems like is this about love and connection or is this about an agenda? I’m not saying we don’t have great, philosophical, spiritual conversations where we challenge one another, but it’s done in love, and the thing that is kind of pervades the conversation is love and connection and wanting to, like, get under the rocks with each other. Yeah. So it’s a beautiful thing. Yeah. I think it’s life giving to say that you love- When somebody loves you unconditionally, it’s life giving. Yeah. I think it boils down to that, and that’s why we’re gonna do it again. And I’m already thinking about what are we gonna do now? We’re thinking we’re gonna move on from- No more whitewater rafting. Water rafting. Yep. No more of that. Just because we feel like we’ve done it. We’ve done it. Like, what else can we do? Maybe not ATVing, apparently. There was talk about Alaska. I had a lot of fun doing it. Don’t get me wrong. I’m just not gonna be a passenger. If Tim can’t get to Durango, I don’t know how he’s gon’ get to Alaska at the same time as us. And Alaska’s a bit of a problem. I didn’t bring this up, but my dad’s been talking to me about wanting to go to Alaska. Not with me, but just in general. So maybe this is reconnaissance or we might have to invite my dad. That’d be funny. The challenge is it has to be a long weekend. That’s the time that we can all kind of commit to it. And this day, this time was one day longer. We want some more. We’re open. #EarBiscuits. Let us know if you got any suggestions for… Here’s what we came up with as our criteria. We want to have a home base that’s more of a, you know. We like to luxuriate in an Airbnb private setting. A multi-day, like, trip on mule back where you’re camping every single day. We like a good hot tub. We like a good fire pit. And then everybody needs their own bed. Poor Greg got stuck with the twin bed this time. So I guess I owe him twice. What were the other requirements? Sense of adventure. A sense of adventure, still. Oh, and also proximity to a cool town. That was something that Harm threw in. And I think like, Okay. First of all, Durango, Nice. Durango is doing a lot. We love Durango. A lot, really well. And we shouted out the Durango Hot Springs on our, I think on my Instagram story, because we met James. Oh yes. Who was in charge of… Well, first of all, let me just say we don’t like to talk about getting recognized, because it makes it sound like we’re really into getting recognized. But sometimes you show up in a town, nobody says anything. Nobody knows who we are, has no point of reference. And then sometimes you show up in a town and it’s like this town, they’ve caught the mythical virus or something. Because every single- Durango got some love. Every single place that we went, every store, every restaurant, it wouldn’t just be, oh, there’s one employee who’s a mythical beast. It would be like half the staff is and all these other people. And, you know, they’re bringing us stuff. Then the guy in charge of Visit Durango shows up at the restaurant and like he’s like, this is the best bartender in Colorado and he’s gonna do this special shot for you guys right now. And he’s like, what else you guys want to do? You want to go to the hot springs? What? So thanks to James for that hookup. If you’re in Durango, go to those hot springs. Yeah, that’s a cool spot. It’s like a bunch of hot tubs. We, like, chilled out in a hot tub and watched live music. And then the kids, the family area was totally separate. Love that. Yeah. They’ve got a good thing going there. They got a good thing going in Durango in general and lots of hospitality and lots of adventure, but a lot of good food. So that whole, we wanted to have that home base, a sense of adventure. Like, we want to do, and it doesn’t have to be one big thing. It could be like, well, one day you’re gonna do this and the next day you’re gonna do this. Just some stuff like dude stuff, adventure. And then the last thing being that, like, cool town where you can, like, go have a drink or get some good food. So. And it doesn’t have to be Colorado, but Colorado has a lot of that. Nope. It can be anywhere. #EarBiscuits. Let us know or leave us a voicemail. 1-888-EarPod1. I caught you off guard there. It’s time for me to give my . Oh man, this is the good one. If you love peanut butter like we do, and… Uh-oh. If you’re willing to spend $20 on a jar of peanut butter, treat yourself, do it at least once. Get yourself some Spoon Junkie. Not a sponsor. I just love this stuff. They have different varietals of peanut butter, nut butters. And the one that I got is called Crack Butter. Smooth cinnamon, date, dual peanut butter. Now, you can get it off the website for $20. Is that the one, does it have cardamon in it? Can you click on the ingredients, because I think that somebody got this for me. You can’t. No, I don’t think it does. I think there may be another one that has that. And that was the thing that for some reason had spice, but… There’s a lot of options. I like to slice apples and dip it into the Crack Butter Spoon Junkie. Do you use a apple slicer? You gotta get one of those. I think I have one. That’s another for another day. Spoon Junkie. I guess it’s a heroin reference. Well, it is now. I mean, the name of the flavor I like is Crack Butter. Yeah. I think they’re a little irreverent. Or maybe there’s crack in it. Food is not well regulated. It’s not. Goodness. We’ll see you next time. Hi, Rhett and Link. I’m a newer “Ear Biscuits” pod listener and viewer, and I just wanted to call to tell you guys the beautiful visualization I see every time I hear the title of the podcast, “Ear Biscuits.” You know when you bust open a can of Pillsbury biscuits or like croissants and it doesn’t bust open like very far. There’s just, like, a little crack and the air comes out and pushes the biscuit out. I just imagine that coming out of an ear with kind of a fart sound. It’s kind of a cute little visualization that I get when I see the name “Ear Biscuits.” So thank you for that. I love it. Bye. To watch more “Ear Biscuits,” click on the playlist on the right. To watch the previous episode of “Ear Biscuits,” click on the playlist to the left. And don’t forget to click on the circular icon to subscribe. If you prefer to listen to this podcast, it’s available on all your favorite podcast platforms. Thanks for being your mythical best.