EB 436: The Most Pivotal Moments of Our 40 Year Friendship

This episode is sponsored by Autotrader. See a car in a movie that you just watched? You can find it on Autotrader. Shop millions of new and used cars on Autotrader. Welcome to Ear Biscuits, the Paul. We’re two lifelong friends. Talk about life for a long time. I’m Link. And I’m rut. This week at the round table of dim lighting, we are celebrating and reminiscing 40 years of friendship, 40 years of friendship with each other. It’s our friend of us right now. Uh, Our friendiversary. This comes out two days before our actual friendiversary, right? So, September 4th, 1984. That is, uh, first day. That’s when it started. It was the first day of, uh, first grade. I don’t want to talk about, I mean, I don’t want to say what it was. So it’s easy, it was easy to retroactively pinpoint that date. And people on the internet actually figure this out. Yeah. Because somebody, we always talk about meeting first grade, elementary school and people were like, well, I did some research and the actual first day of School was September 4th in 1984. So for whoever did that originally. That’s how we know that you can always count on. That’s how long we’ve been friends. Mythical beasts. So we’re going, and we also did a special little celebration on good mythical morning, so you can check that out. It, it did involve, um, a ceremony and, uh, Elvis and, and it was a complete surprise to us, uh, and let’s just say, maybe Stevie talked about this on good mythical more. I can’t remember. It was great to have Elvis. Elvis was not our first choice. It was not our first choice. We did talk about that. We had a couple of other We’ll talk about that a little more. Um, so anyway, uh, we decided what we want to do is we want to reminisce. We have each put together a list of the most significant slash iconic moments in our friendship. This got really squirrelly really quickly for me. Well, we got our wires crossed in terms of the assignment, I will say. Uh, yeah. Because this was This is this is your idea, which made me very happy that that you suggested this idea that we, you know, come up with special moments over the course of our four years of friendship. And I should have clarified because I was thinking at the time not to make it a top 10 because that means we have to narrow it down to the top 10. We have to rank things in order of significance or whatever. So I just went from the beginning and started tracking through our friendship chronologically and tried to remember. The most significant moments and it got out of hand really quickly Well, all you said was way more than 10 the text you sent me was we can each make lists and compare before Or we can make lists and go through it like we would top 10. Yeah, i’m misleading So then I was like, okay, i’ll i’ll pull that together like we would and then we never talked about it Again, what what I was hoping so what I did was I tried to narrow it down to 10 Like 10 things that I was going to rank as like, what are the most pivotal moments in our friendship? And then you’re like, well, I’ve got 40. Well what I meant by that what I didn’t think we were making the decision I was like, would you want to do it like this? You want to do it like this? Like let’s let’s talk about it. And then we just didn’t talk about it again. It’s fine You do it your way, I’ll do it mine. Is this the breakup? Is this the end of 40 years of friendship? Um, I mean, I don’t have 40, but I probably have 20. But you should have 40, because that would be a nice theme. But I may not mention, I may not mention all 40, all 20. And you want to do it in chronological order. Yeah. And I wanted to do it in order of importance, which now I’m not going to do, because I didn’t reorder them once you told me that you’re not doing that. I didn’t want to. Assign more or less significance to different moments, because once I started thinking about them, that seemed like an impossible task. Uh, I’ll do that. I’m up for the task. Yeah, so that, that’s gonna be my role, but since you have more than me and you want to go in a certain order, I’m gonna let, I’m gonna let you do that. And, because there’s so many, and we’ve, if we’ve talked extensively about any of this stuff before, I just feel like, Moving along. You know what I’m saying? Like, for instance, number one, the first day we met. September 4th, 1984. Miss Locklear’s class. We did a whole episode about how the story about that and the specifics about that were potentially invented in our own minds. About writing curse words and being held in from recess. Which we still remember, we still believe. At least being held in from recess. But we don’t question that being the first day. We know that’s the first day. We met less because we remember it specifically and more because Didn’t it just have to be I mean, is there an argument to be made that we actually met at church a week before a month before? Hmm what I so we’re sitting basically what we’re doing is we’re undermining today. We are undermining every one of our most Special memories of friendship and calling it completely into question. I never thought about that. We moved that summer and then I think we visited Memorial and we visited First Baptist. And I don’t know if I would have gone to Sunday school. You didn’t always go to church. Yeah, I did. Every Sunday? Yeah, well, yeah, I was just late a lot. So there’s a possibility that we met before that All right. So let’s mark cross that one off the list maybe two weeks before but we didn’t talk I know we didn’t have a conversation because I was like the new kid and I I hadn’t taught anybody Until I got to school. I don’t think I would have gone to sunday school I think I would have like waited or something right because you were you were the new kid Um, and we we I think we got to north carolina right before school started. I don’t know. That’s that my that’s my recollection You Maybe like a week or two before school started? I don’t know. So yeah, we met for the first time in first grade. Let’s not screw that one up. I would not, I, I am not putting this as the number one moment of our friendship because Yes, it’s very important, the first time we met, but there’s more important moments in our friendship. Okay, like the first time I spent the night at your house. What do you remember about this? I don’t remember at all. But you know it must have been important. This is why I surmise that this is really important. Again, as we’ve discussed. Talked about many times. I had a propensity to invite myself over to other, uh, kids homes. Yeah. Boys homes. Not boys homes, like we’re foster children. Orphanage? Like, not orphanages. Like other Homes of children, uh, you know, you know, other people’s houses, your friends, dude. No, no, no, no, no. They didn’t have to be my friends, potential friends, anybody at all. And what I will say is that every single kid in that like first grade class For the most part, over the course of a couple of years, I invited myself over to everybody’s house. Most people, I would go over to their house, I would spend the night, and I would say, I’ve seen all I need to see. I’m not coming back. Ah. You know what I’m saying? I’ve seen Well, we had a small house. You could pretty much see everything from You could stand in the middle of the house and see it all. I’ve seen what’s in the refrigerator. I, you know, I know what movies they got on VHS. Which usually was none, because people rented VCRs back then. Do they have a Nintendo? I specifically, there was a select number of people that I was like, I made the decision to re invite myself over. And yours was one of those houses. There weren’t many. There weren’t many. There was a handful. So I would say that was a significant sign. I don’t remember the first time, but there was a second and third and fourth time, and then there was at some point where I was able to talk you into spending the night at my house, but it was probably like sixth grade because you were scared to not sleep in your own bed. Well, it is interesting to like There are certain things that we know for sure, like, that we were very different at that age. This is a very, um, validatable point here, you know? And a good example to then, like, extrapolate, right? You were unabashedly inviting yourself to people’s houses, and I was, you know, I, I, I would never do that, but you would certainly do it, it now, but I don’t, I wouldn’t do it now. It’s like, yeah, I would do it. We, we’ve had a role reversal, but we were very different in that way, which I think leads to being different in a lot of different ways. But when we hung out, it, it, it still worked. And I think it has to do with that silliness. laughing together. That’s what, that’s what we’ve like derived. And, and when we, when we wrote about it in the book of mythicality, I think that’s like friends who laugh together, stay together. Okay. That, that, that slogan is something that I think it really is the backbone of, we just had the same vibe, the same sense of humor. And, We also saw each other a lot because there was the the church thing like a couple of like three times during the week We would be in the same space outside of But school there were other kids who were also part of that Right in the class and in church that I didn’t end up going back to their house. Yeah, and it wasn’t We it’s not like from that early age We were seen as like this duo as like best friends constantly and but in my first grade Um, first or second grade. I think it was first grade though, that my mom still has and then became a t shirt. It was like, Ms. Locklear gave us this thing and it was like you had to draw your family, your pets, your favorite activities, your best friend or friends. And I put Link and Matt. Link, Neil, Matthew Ensor. Yeah. And, uh, Okay, I never spend the night at Matthew’s house. That’s a data point, but I drew you as my best friend in first grade Okay. Well, there you go. Okay, that’s that’s proof positive Blonde hair full blue suit. It’s a t shirt. Okay. I don’t know get it anymore. There you go I you know what to break out of the chronology because you mentioned miss Locklear one of the iconic moments in our friendship for me Is making the documentary looking for Miss Lockley, which we filmed in 2003. It technically didn’t come out to 2006. You can still rent it on Amazon now if you want to watch it. Yeah, um, that was an important moment in our, in our friendship because. It was the first time. I mean, we made a movie together within the context of working for, you know, crew being working for a nonprofit, we somehow like altered our job description and like the strategy of what we were doing to include making a film, which was extremely exciting and rewarding. And. Just a really long project. It was like this passion project that we filmed it over one summer, but then over the next couple of years, we would just edit it when we had time and it was directly tied to that, the origin story of our friendship, you know, and it was a big creative risk and a big creative adventure. That we found a way to make it happen. And I think that was just, that was kind of a, it was a super sweet thing that we did, you know, that memorialized our friendship. We felt like this is something we want to share with people. And even now we’re really leaning into that with wonder hole, you know? So it’s, I think that was a really pivotal experience for us because it was documenting an experience and it was making a movie and it was about our friendship in the past. It was also about, you know, uh, an American Indian tribe, uh, seeking federal recognition. It ended up, I would say that it was, it was a bit emblematic of what we’ve continued to lean into all these years and are, and are leaning into with Wonderhole, which we’ll talk about more. Later on because I’m going chronologically. I remember spending the night at your house. Much more than I remember you spending the night at my house. On the U. S. History mattress? Yes. Yeah. Which was like, you would, it would fold up into the couch. But then you would take it out and just put it on the floor, wouldn’t you? I had a fold up bed underneath my bed? No, I just had a mattress that was underneath my bed. We would usually sleep in that guest room because that’s where the Nintendo was. Right, but before that, in the early days, they would, my parents would take that U. S. history mattress. Which I also had one, and I will say, just preface this, later in, when I was going through puberty and I was experimenting with my couch, not my couch, I’m not J. D. Vance, my bed, um, uh, that was a different mattress at the time. Okay, good. Okay? And I no longer was sleeping on it. Well, maybe I was. Was I sleeping on that one? No, no, I’m saying that you do not I can assure you that you’ve never slept on a mattress that I had sex with Are you sure because I spent a night at your house when we were 15 Yeah, you changed the mattress by that point the US history mattress was what it was very very thin. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay I remember your television remote. We’re moving on. I’m just, uh, let me just say that I’m not running for vice president and I know that JD Vance didn’t actually have sex with a, with a, with a couch. Somebody made a joke and it became a thing, but here’s the thing. I am not running for vice president and I did have sex with furniture. So it’s the exact opposite. He is running and he didn’t have. I’m openly not running for Vice President and openly admit that I did have sex with furniture. But you don’t have to because you’re not running for anything. There’s no reason to admit. But I’m saying that if I ever do run for something, and God forbid, I really don’t want to, I mean, I’m going to have to embrace that. It’s going to be part of my platform. It’s going to be like, yes, I did have sex with furniture. Well, you know, that’s what makes the best leaders. No, people who have sex with furniture. No, people who don’t want the office. I don’t want it, Link. Don’t, don’t twist my arm into running for office. I’ve had sex with furniture. Do not vote for me. I don’t want it. Oh, he’s perfect. He’s perfect. He’s the total package. There’s a small group of fans that are going to be very happy you finally addressed this. Oh, which part of it? The, the, when the JD Vance thing first came out, there was a number of fan, fan responses. I was like, Jesse told me that I should say something about it. You know, my social media advisor, my wife, uh, she, she told me I should engage. I was like, I’m just not doing Twitter right now. I remember your television remote had a, it was not, it was corded. Yeah, it was a Zenith. It was a Zenith and it had a. Cord, Xena, the best brand of TV. Okay. What else you got? Let’s not get off on the tangent of who has the best television. Um, you may have 40 years of friendship. You may disagree with this, but I think a significant, some, some of the things in my list are going to be things that I were like, if we were making a movie about our lives, this would be an iconic scene. And then some things are going to be like, this is a circumstantial thing that happened that I think has a lot of significance. Okay. This is the latter. Uh, Pastor Tim, Youth Pastor Tim showing up at Bowie’s Creek First Baptist Church. Yeah. And I would say in a lot of ways. Okay, well I know that he was, he was very fervent and excited to teach us as youth to be just as fervent and excited as he was. To like, take a risk for the gospel. Passion. Passion. About your relationship with Jesus. Yes. Which ended up So much so that you would share it with people. It, well, and just prioritizing it. Like, it being, hey, if this is true, and I’m not saying that this wouldn’t have happened anyway. Because I, my personality was like, I was all in. But, I think this was, if it had been a different, like, less passionate, less good, in that sense, youth pastor. Yeah. I think that I may have been a little bit more, Lukewarm, right? But I think it connected with both of us in a way that it ended up being a thing that we had in common. It’s, you know, there were other, I think there were other girls that we knew that maybe were as passionate or whatever, but like, in terms of like guys who are like, unabashedly passionate about Jesus. Yeah. We had that in common in a way that we couldn’t really connect with other people. I would, then I would, for me that point would be that mission trip. Well, we went to Trinidad. But we went to Trinidad, why? Because of Tim. Right, and we were 14, 15? Uh, that was Yeah. Right before high school right before high school. Yeah, which at the same time without getting into the to the hairy details of why there was a church split at Buies Creek First Baptist Church that year. It had it squarely had to do with. Tim, right, which led to the beginning thought he should be a pastor, right? And so and we had this like very strong relationship with him. So we were very invested. It wasn’t something that the adults were doing. It was something that we were very connected to, right? And then my family being a part of the new church, which then led to the establishment of The Maranatha Cafe. So, I, I see, like, you know, again, you can, there’s an infinite regress, and, and The Maranatha Cafe, that’s where we decided to start our band, the Wax Paper Dogs, which was very instrumental. Right. But I’ve got some more moments. A friendship. I’ve got more moments between then and there, but yeah. Alright, keep going, since you’re going chronological. I’ll make sure you don’t miss any that are on my list. Uh, 7th grade talent show. Hell yeah, 7th grade talent show. That’s where It was, we, we performed Scenario from Tribe Called Quest, so we had the posse cut, and it was me, you, uh, Ben was on the drum machine. Cause what did we do, 8th grade? And then, we added another song at the end that was just me, you, and Ben, so it went from Scenario right into another song. We got two for one. And what was the song we did 8th grade though? Uh, Or did I have it backwards? I thought Scenario was 8th grade. That was 8th grade. We did the same song, which is Digital Underground. One of the first songs that Tupac performs in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, um, yeah, and that’s the one we added a song onto. So that was Me, You, Ben. And we brought the house down. We lived for that. It was like, oh my god. And I remember being in first grade. And watching the talent show of the 8th graders and thinking in 1st grade, Can we be up there one day? And uh, and then in 7th grade we did. And I, and again, that was We showed up all the 8th graders, which was That was great. And again, there’s a bunch of moments that kind of meld like, is this a career moment or is this a friendship moment? Which I think is very representative of our friendship, which is, you know, our pursuit of things has been, well, we didn’t have careers then source of our friendship that makes it easier. Um, yeah, that was very formative. Yeah. I mean, so you, you missed the, the fall, that was fall of eighth grade year, the, the fall festival. Mm-Hmm. was after that. Where we performed you down with Halloween to the to the tune of you down with OPP in my recollection It was because what we had done is we had gained confidence from getting up there for the seventh grade thing And then we’re like we can get up there during the fall festival. It’s not even a talent show We can just say we’ve written a rap and do it. Yeah, and Again to fast forward. This is one that was very high on my list Uh as a friendship moment The full circle moment of performing that rap on the Tonight Show with the Roots backing us. I’ve brought it up a couple of times. I think it’s like one of the, it’ll go down as one of like, the most satisfying, special moments in our, our friendship. Because it was that full circle thing of, the first, I, I, I remembered it as being before the 7th grade talent show, but it was an original song, like, you wrote these lyrics, I dug them up, I still had the lyrics that you’d written, it was like, I knew it was special, I kept it. I don’t think I would have had the confidence to do it without having done the talent show. You can see it in the Book of Mythicality, um, but that’s a good point. But yeah, to be able to perform it there, because I was also like, is the first time we went on The Tonight Show, that was an, a very special moment for us, because we grew up watching The Tonight Show. It was just, it was iconic to us. So to be on it, and to be doing what we were doing, to be doing a will it from Good Mythical Morning, they built the set, you know, they recreated our show within The Tonight Show. It’s like It was such a, uh, a co sign, as they call it. And it was extremely special. That was like a highlight of, like, definitely a highlight of our career. But, to me, both of those, especially the wrapping on there, is a highlight of our friendship. And, I, it’s definitely in the, in the book. In the top five subject to change. There’s a lot, there’s a cluster of events back then in this time period. So I’m going to stay there for a little bit. And it stay, you can stay within like performing for an audience. Well, I’m, so I’ll, let me do that first. The every year there would be, there was the school dance, the middle school dance, Benny. Enzor, who was Matt’s dad, who later became a member of our band, he was the DJ and they, he put on a lip sync competition. Yeah. So it was another time for, okay, at a certain point in the dance, everybody’s going to gather around and then if you’ve entered in, you’re going to get to, you get to, you get to perform and it’s a contest. And we performed a DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince song called Jazzy’s Groove, where Fresh, the Fresh Prince, Will Smith, is just rapping about how good of a DJ Jeff is and I was Jeff and I was just acting like I was doing the the DJ stuff and he made he made the records talk and and and perform arithmetic. One plus one is two. Which is extremely hard to do and I had no clue what he was doing and all these years later here I am taking a course. Now you’re a DJ. From him and learning how to do that. That was it, that was a big moment. We didn’t win though I don’t think. I think Linwood Campbell. I think maybe outdid us with a Black Sheep song. Yeah, have more, a little more energy. It was, it was a hit. The song we chose was not a hit. No one, it was a, it was a, it was a deep cut. Right. It was an iconic moment. A lot of people are trying to limit their bread intake, right? Bread can be high calorie, it can be high carb. Mm hmm. But then there are just so many things that, I enjoy. It’s just part of my diet where bread got to have some bread. The bread. Bread. You know what I mean? You got a hamburger, you got a hot dog, you got a taco, you got some tortillas, you gotta have some bread. You a bread for a taco. Oh, tortillas. Okay. All right. Yeah, that’s right. Well, hero bread reinvented the bread and buns that make everything Rat just talked about. And now you can try their sweet, melt in your mouth Hawaiian rolls for guilt free summer sliders! Let me tell ya, even if summer’s done, you’re gonna wanna keep these Hawaiian buns around, because they taste just as good as any other Hawaiian bun I’ve had. Yeah, there’s nothing compromised in taste or texture. We tried these yesterday as a matter of fact. We had all of them in there. We had the tortillas. We had the seed bread. We had the, the buns. And you, I would have just thought I was eating regular bread. I know, totally. Soft and fluffy. Make a sandwich. But it has zero grams of sugar and zero to one grams of net carbs and is a very high in fiber. I love fiber. I don’t know if that makes me sound old, but I freaking love fiber. We’re fiber fans. And I love bread. Keep the carbs out of your life without compromising flavor with Hero Bread. Get 10 percent off your order at hero. co and use code EAR at checkout. That’s EAR at H E R O dot C O. You know, there’s so many really good streaming television shows that aren’t in English, Rhett. And you can turn on the subtitles. Or, you can learn the language. Oh, okay. Like Lando is doing. Mm hmm. He is? Yep. Yep. To, to watch his anime. Well, if you would like that. Mm hmm. In comes Rosetta Stone, the most trusted language learning program available on desktop or as an app that truly immerses you in the language you want to learn. They’ve used trusted experts for 30 years with millions of users and 25 languages offered, some of which include Spanish, French, German, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, and Arabic. Rosetta Stone immerses you in many ways. The lessons help you pick up a language naturally, first with words, then phrases, then sentences. And it’s designed for long term retention. Plus, their built in true accent feature gives you feedback on your pronunciation so you end up sounding like a pro. A lifetime membership has all 25 languages for all language needs in your life. That’s lifetime access to all 25 language courses Rosetta Stone offers for 50 percent off. That’s a steal. Don’t put off learning that language. There’s no better time than right now to get started. You can get Rosetta Stone’s lifetime membership for 50 percent off. Visit rosettastone. com slash ear. That’s 50 percent off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your 50 percent off at rosettastone. com slash ear today. Non performative moments. Uh, I think that Ben getting sick at that same time was actually a really significant thing, right? Seventh grade. So Right. And this is, you know, Ben’s initial diagnosis of chronic fatigue syndrome. We’ve talked quite a bit about that. Which kind of took him sidelined him in a lot of ways, right? He had to leave school, uh, we still hung out, but, you know, the three of us spent a lot of time together, and I also spent a lot of individual time with Ben and with you, um, and then Ben getting sick and suddenly being a middle schooler, not knowing, who didn’t know how to process that, but also just literally couldn’t, he could not go and do things, you know, uh, You and I were just beginning this like high school journey doing these performances together and I think it kind of had this, um, it was a catalyst for us sort of teaming up and being like we’re a unit. In a way that we had been, but it wasn’t so solidified until that moment. Yeah, um, I’ll add something around that time. The, let’s see, 8th grade school assignments that we turned into video projects. Like Oedipus. Which we dug up and showed on Good Mythical Morning, like, in some of the first few seasons. Like super grainy VHS bad bad, but like in camera edited I think we shot it and we we shot it and put it on the tape in order So it’s like you didn’t edit it later, but you might have done something I don’t know if we had the ability to do that Again that making videos together was something that we did like the first time we were making Videos for school. It was together. There were other people there, but it was and they were comedy. They were dumb and people were kind of letting us just do what we wanted to do. Yeah. Okay. They seem to really have an idea of what they want to do. It seems really bad and dumb, but they’re so passionate about it that I guess I got to let them do it now right around that same time. Um, this is in the category of this would be In the movie, eighth grade, Betsy’s house, the party in the makeout room. So you think this is an iconic? I think it’s so funny now for the, for the rink shippers. This is like, this is evidence piece of evidence. Number one, that we’re secretly lovers, right? They just love this stuff. Right. Okay. And, um, yeah. And as we have proven, we do not mind feeding into your theories. Um, Us individually making out with our girlfriends in the make out room, but then opening our eyes and making eye contact while making out with girls, right? Now, it wasn’t lasting eye contact. If you want it to believe that it was lasting eye contact, then fine. And maybe in the movie it would be. It was more of a confirmation of But it was like, yeah, we’re doing this. Of parallel experiences. Alright, yeah, yeah, yeah. We’re both on We’re both on the right track. It’s an iconic thing that I want to put into something at some point. Because it’s just so funny for two boys who’ve been making out with their girlfriends. And like, they’ve talked about it so much. Like they’ve talked about how they’re gonna do this and like this is what life’s all about like that Not not the looking at each other part, but like we’re making out we’re gonna make out what our girlfriends And maybe this was me like talking about how great it was Going to be and convincing you how great it was gonna be and then I’m doing I’m like see how great this is And I’m like I’m real. I feel like I might shit my pants at any moment. I’m so nervous, but okay. Am I doing this right? It’s probably what I was looking Yeah. Like, uh, I wasn’t laying down though. We were both reclined. Yeah, we were reclined. There’s quite a room, that mink out room at her house. I mean there was somebody else in there too. There was another couple. Oh, at least a couple. Might have been at least a couple couples that happen anymore. I hope so. Um, I’ve still I’ve got, by the way, I’ve got another one from that era before I move on to a really iconic moment, but I don’t know if you’ve got anything else in that. I think. 7th, 8th, 9th grade. The sheer amount of time that we spent outdoors, especially over the summer, but like, That’s where I was going. Just doing stuff outside. Like, all the stories we’ve told before of like, We’re going to chase cows, we’re going to swim in the river, we’re going across the river to chase the other cows, we’re going to, uh, kayak down the river. A lot of these things started because of Ben. And then at that same time, he was less and less able to be there, and we kept, we kept going. You know, even when we were in school, after school, we would, we would go hang out. Even after, in the woods. Even after we got our We would still, after sophomore year in high school, we were still going out into the woods and swimming in the river and like, It was super, like, just this, just the amount of time just talking and adventuring was, I think, the most pivotal, uh, what, well, it may tie with the most pivotal time in our friendship in terms of like really solidifying it. There was this, Connection, but it, but again, it was so much time and, um, we really began to, everyone else started to see us as a duo and we saw ourselves that way and we weren’t self conscious about it, even when people made fun of us, like we didn’t care about those people. I don’t, I didn’t, I don’t recall caring that much about it. Cause there were the, there were the rank shippers. Yeah. I forgot all about this, but our freshman year in high school. Well, we talked about it on here like last year, but I forgot about it again. There was a guy, Daniel, whatever his name was, he would like started the rumor that we were gay. Of course, that was that at that point. That was like, Oh, gosh, this is the worst rumor anybody could make up about somebody. And in our little conservative town, you know, it’s not a lasting memory of having like this, like really negative impact on me. No, you know, like. We had a big group of friends, but like we were always seen as a duo and we unabashedly did almost everything together, you know, um, so that’s when that really coalesced and then I think it culminated obviously in a specific memory. Well, I have, um, a specific thing that I remember related to that and that is summer between 8th and 9th grade, getting ready to go to high school. And us going to the river and just talking about what we were about to experience. And it was one of those Who are we going to date? Like you were very It was one of those like Fixated. Very like a, it was like a TED Talk moment that I would go into where I was trying to, like, cast a vision. Yeah. For, like, this is what high school’s going to be, you realize. Yeah, this, like, futurist thing that you still have to this day. We’ve had, like, fantasy type. We’ve been going to this school. Visualization. With this limited number of girls. Right. And we’re about to go. We’re gonna have girls from Anger, girls from Lillington, uh, girls from Lafayette. Yeah. And girls from Boobies Creek. And suddenly, it like, it, you have no idea what is in store for you. And I certainly didn’t. I certainly didn’t. And I just remember sitting there just thinking about it. And just thinking about our lives are about to change. Yeah, these are the nature of the conversations we had. It was like very involved. It wasn’t, it was deep. And it was fantastical. And there was a lot of it. You know, I think it was we’re just kind of just dreaming and visualizing these things and then you know I think we’ve moved the date around a bit to know exactly where it where it happened But obviously a top moment in our friendship is the blood oath. Yeah, I Would argue since we’re going chronological. We’re basically we’re to it but That is number one. Yeah. I think it’s number one. Oh yeah. Because it was the first time that we had a meta con It was Again, it’s like the way that you talked about like going into high school, this was going into the rest of our lives. This was a huge open ended belief that we, you know, when you admit that to the other guy, to the point where it’s like, yeah, let’s put this in writing, let’s make this a promise to do something big together. It’s not something, it was a culmination of conversations we had, but it was, it was a huge deal. We didn’t have to go there. We didn’t have to ritualize this thing, you know, but doing that meant a whole lot, you know, um, And I bet you it was, we were probably actually 16, 15 or 16. We used to say 14, but that doesn’t make any sense because we were actually thinking about college at the time. I remember when you were thinking about, like, what are we going to do? Are we going to major in film when we get to college? Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know. I think we were probably 16 at the time because it because it had gotten to this point where we were beginning to, like, consider things like at the, you know, at the time I thought I was gonna play college basketball. And so I think maybe, like, let’s go to a place where I can play college basketball, but we can major in film. Yeah, you know, like trying to, like, create a scenario where we got to pursue this thing together, not knowing exactly where we were going. Um, yeah, and I think that, yeah, obviously it’s the, it comes up so much in conversation because it’s sort of the, it’s the, it’s the thing that proves to someone that like, not only have we known each other forever, but we’ve been committed to doing something together. In like a weirdly serious way, right? In a way that when people say things like, oh, it’s really unusual that you guys have been friends this long, and that you’ve done this much stuff together and that your, your lives have been intertwined in this way and that your careers have been intertwined. Like that’s where the sort of rarity begins to stack up because people are like, oh i’ve got a friend I’ve got somebody I went to middle school with that We still talk on a regular basis But I don’t have a room that I go to that and stay in that room with them every single day Right, well, we weren’t thinking that it was we’re starting a business partnership together. No but that’s only because we I don’t think we connected those dots if we If we really would, if we would have known enough about how the world worked, we, I think we would have known that that’s part of what we were articulating. We’re going to go into business together, you know, it’s just that our dreams weren’t about being businessmen or even about making money. And they still aren’t. No, no, they’re not. It’s a means to an end. The business has always been a means to an end. And it wasn’t about making money, like we never talked about being rich. Right. You know, we’re going to make lots of money together. It’s like we were going to make lots of stuff. We’re going to do something big together. I mean, it was very, it was very much aligned to what has happened. It’s crazy. Right. Um, and I kept it in my wallet and I, I don’t remember. And then you lost it. But then. But I didn’t even keep it in my wallet. So I probably put it in my desk and then it was probably cleaned out by my mom or something. Do you recall anyone else knowing about the oath back then? I don’t think we talked about it with people. I don’t think anybody would have known about it. Yeah, I don’t think there was an occasion to talk about it. And I don’t think it’s the type of thing that we would have told a girlfriend. Mmm, probably not. I don’t think so. Our relationships were pretty shallow. laughs Why am I still laughing? Uh, it’s funny. I don’t know. laughs It is funny. laughs I was thinking of a lot of jokes to, like, play on being shallow, but I don’t want to say any of them because they seem cruel. Okay, yeah. So, okay. Shortly after that, the first, um, sort of application of that doing something bid together was starting the band, Wax Paper Dogs. Which we’ve talked about that a million times, we don’t have to go into the details, but we started a Christian band. Junior year is what I’m going to say right now. Yeah, because I was, I was, I was 17 is when I picked up a guitar for the first time and started trying to teach myself so we could. Well actually, we started the band before that, we were dual lead singers, but then I was like, that’s weird, we’re not in sync. And so we decided to, I decided to play guitar. It was just, it was an endeavor. You know, we were going, we were bringing other people along. Like we had, we had a friend group. We brought them along on things like camping trips and stuff like that. And when we started the band, it might’ve not have exclusively been our idea, but it was like, okay, we’re bringing you guys along, you know, it’s like, We’re obviously a duo. We do everything together. We’re going to do this together. We had no clue how formative it would be from a personal, spiritual, um, and creative standpoint. Because I think the thing that makes it really significant is not that the band was good. We weren’t. Not that we were making incredible things. We weren’t. Um, I think the thing that is most, what it most represents is the level of seriousness that we apply to things. Like, it’s, it is a I don’t think that the hallmark of what we have created, I’m very proud of many of the things that we’ve created. But I don’t think the thing that sets us apart is that whatever we do is more excellent. There’s lots of people who make way more excellent stuff than we do. We make the stuff that we can make. We make stuff that only we can make, right? That’s what makes it unique. But one of the things is that, There is a pathological, potentially, maniacal level of commitment to it that we both share that ends up sort of forcing our will on a situation sometimes. Um, I’m not saying it’s healthy, but the fact that we’re both aligned in that way has led to A lot of things. That’s one of the things that has led to things working for us. I would put it this way, and I think in this way it is very healthy. We fostered an unapologetic commitment to dreaming. Like we had these big dreams that then we were extremely serious. about following through with and We just we believed we always thought that we dreamed whatever we were doing Had so much more potential than it probably did. Oh, yeah when we started that band we were already rock stars in our minds It was like well, we’ve done the most important thing which is to start Now it’s just getting from point A to point B and point B is playing arenas. And it was just a foregone conclusion that that was going to happen. You know, it was stupid to think that way. And everybody in the band believed it. That was the cool thing. We all just believed it. Right. And it was a lot of fun. Oh, yeah, it’s fun to believe that way. And the amount, again, you add the component of time. Like, the amount of time we spent together. We would practice. Chasing. We didn’t just dream. We’d be like. Realizing. We gotta practice, guys. We gotta get this shit down. We wouldn’t say shit, though. No. Because we were Christians. But, like, we gotta get this stuff down. We, this is serious. We can’t be messing things up. Right. We gotta get these harmonies right. Yeah. I mean. That’s it. It was such a, it all came together. The time, the commitment, the passion, the camaraderie, so much was encapsulated in the band in, in how we worked. And it was because it was a spiritual thing. We had this sense of accountability with each other, but also with the band that what we were doing was sacred, right? There was a sacred nature to what we were doing. Um, and it was important and our reputations mattered. And that’s what leads to another. Hey, this is a movie moment after you got drunk at Trent’s house. Yeah, on my deconstruction, my first deconstruction episode, like spiritual, uh, episode, I told that story. That just really demonstrates just the level of commitment we had to each other to have hard conversations. I mean, we called it holding each other accountable, but I think in retrospect, there was this level of care that like we knew the real person and we made commitments to each other, or we had made commitments to God in the context of our friendship. Right. And at this point, yes, within the context of the band to it’s like, Hey, we’re going after this thing. You don’t want to. Um, uh, sabotage it with making a bad decision, going and getting drunk at your friend’s house when their parents are out of town for the, for the first and only time. So, yeah, that iconic moment of, uh, you know, we had the conversation in the car and then you pulled over and you kicked me out of the car and then you made me, you invited me to reflect on what I had done by walking home. Yes. And then. Uh, you drove off and I’m taking this very seriously, tears rolling down my face, walking down a two lane road in the middle of tobacco fields in Harnett County and I look up and, um, you know, over the hill, I start to see you walking back, you know, you, you start coming over the horizon, you’re not in the car, there is no car in sight, you’re walking back. And you met me on the road, and then we turned around and we walked back together. Said nothing. Said nothing. And we, and, uh, we got back in the car and we kept driving and we kept moving forward. We didn’t talk about it again. Kept moving forward with, with our dreams. This is like you can’t you can’t jeopardize it. You’ve never had a drop of alcohol. I’ve never had a drop of alcohol I never got drunk again. That’s not true I’m, but you didn’t get drunk again until that time in your bathtub when you were drinking rum when I was married We don’t like to get drunk Yeah, I don’t like to get drunk. Um, okay. That was a big moment. It was big. That was a big moment. I’m interested. What about, what about the time when I like told you that you had really screwed up? You shouldn’t have done that with all your girlfriends. I mean, it was never as dramatic, but you had a lot more infractions in me. You never told me, you never told me anything about it. You never challenged me on it. Oh, well, yes we did. I was a good boy once the band started. Yeah. It wasn’t easy for you. Right. It wasn’t that easy, but I did it. Wasn’t easy to just, to not have shallow dating relationships. Um, so I don’t remember. So I, what I wrote down here is so many things in college because it’s, it’s, it’s college is its own set of very concentrated, formative memories as well. And I would say that, um, you know, our decision to. Our decision to join Campus Crusade and really like go all in there was, was super formative. Um, but I also think that like, we may, we could have gone with some, with another ministry or we could have decided to do something else, but that ended up being like really, really important for our friendship to continue to be centered around this like mission. It was very mission driven. Our lives were mission driven and we saw each other as very important. But it also led to all of the professional stuff. We entered into that scene as a duo. You know, everybody who met us in college, like the vast majority, met us as a duo. You know, for our freshman year, we were still talking about the band we were in and like, we would have a couple of concerts and when we would make friends, we invited them to the concerts that we would have because it wasn’t, it was still within an hour’s drive to kind of go back home. Or somewhere in between and like have a venue that we can now invite our college friends to so like and we both bleached our hair We both looked really weird and different than most everybody else. We were hanging out with we were more extreme looking Yeah, it may have been a common alternative a common thing elsewhere, but in North Carolina, right? It was on you it was a more unusual walking around campus. It was like, okay these Even if these guys aren’t together, I can tell that these, these guys need to be friends if they’re not, if no, if you just saw us on campus. But yeah, everybody met us in that context, and I don’t recall being self conscious about that at all at that point. For me, going off to college together, like moving into that dorm room, and that, I just remember the feeling of the first week and that we had each other at a point where we were completely on our own. And I remember being scared shitless in a lot of ways after that first week. It’s like, wow, this is a different level of freedom. I feel like the net’s gone kind of a thing, but we had each other and we had an identity to everyone else of having each other. And people liked it. I think it, it didn’t push people away. I think it drew people in, you know, the way that we conducted our friendship was inclusive. It was that like, Hey, we’re doing stuff. Be a part of it. Kind of a, kind of a thing, you know, which is when we met Greg and like he became like our closest other friend, it was like the friends that we made were really good friends. Like we’re going on this college buddy’s trip again, this year, Greg, Tim and harm. And it’s like, This identity of friendship that wasn’t exclusive is something that, yeah, we were just, I, we were proud of it, you know? And because of, you might be like, well, maybe we should do some stuff apart, you know? It’s like, is this a little weird? Like, we never, we never talked about that. And that doesn’t really, you know? I don’t, I think there’s a time and a place for considering that once you start sort of establishing your lives and your families and stuff like that. And that kind of thing happens naturally. But when you’re in high school, in college, I think that the lack of self consciousness about that is, it’s like, in many ways, it’s sort of like twins, right? You know, twins, well, and sometimes this happens earlier with twins because they’ve been together their whole lives, but there’s the twins who are like, we’re going to the same college. We’re going to continue being this unit. And they have to self actualize and individuate at some point. But we were, yeah, there was no consideration of that. Now we were doing slightly different things, it wasn’t like every time, you know, we made a decision. Cause I was like, I’m gonna lead this, I’m gonna lead this Bible study, or I’m gonna go on this. This summer project and I’m gonna. We’ll spend the summer apart. MC the MC the meeting or whatever It wasn’t like we had to do every single thing together. Yeah, there was a level of security I think that we you know that we didn’t have to do everything together, but it was still the vast majority I think that the first time the two of us performed a song Together that was just us where by this point you moved You To emceeing like a regional conference, the Christmas conference, 1, 300 students. There was a, I mean, this was a big career moment, but it’s also a big friendship moment where it’s like, okay, there was a little bit of divergence that you were emceeing meetings and on stage, and it wasn’t a duo thing, you know, so publicly you started to develop this, um, reputation and become known, not just at NC state, but at other campuses when you did this. And then, you know, I was there as maybe like a behind the scenes producer, director, so to speak, but like to be on stage and to sing a song that was, and we had done it, we had done a song and like, it was me and Tim singing with you. But then that was a big moment for me in terms of like, uh, our career, definitely. But I think our friendship. When we were both performing up there and then that was the start of us being seen as a semi professional Duo and right along that same time because my first christmas conference I’m seeing gig was as a senior and then the second one was basically when I after I graduated in this december Um, you ended up getting married In june that following june and then greg ended up getting married six months later, right? and We performed at his rehearsal dinner, and we, and we took that same song that me and you and Tim had performed, that Unibrow song, and we turned it into, you know, the, we’ve seen Greg naked, hope soon you will too, hope you enjoy it more than we do, song. And that was, it went so well, and that was when Jesse and Christy, on the way home, they were like, y’all need to do something with this, like, you need to, like, you, this doesn’t need to be a party trick. Yeah, like what are you gonna do with this? You know, in this conversation, I find it interesting We never referred back to that blood oath. It, when we’re making all these decisions and we’re starting to become known as a duo, as friends, but then also publicly once we started taking their advice and started writing songs, making more videos together. We didn’t hearken to the oath. It was kind of like, well, that was a, I don’t know. We never told anybody about it. And then we never talked about it. It wasn’t like once we made the oath, we were constantly like, it was different than when I said, we gave ourselves permission to just dream and like, to passionately follow it, we were, we were, I think we were following that commitment from the oath, but we never thought about it that way, at least I didn’t. And I think I would be much more likely to do that than you, but neither one of us did. So I do find that interesting that it, I think the oath for us was. There was a film school component to it, so when that didn’t pan out, and we just got, we went into engineering at NC State, and we were still roommates, there was still this like, okay, it’s, it’s a little too vulnerable to say at any point, I really want to make, Something happened with the two of us. You know, it just kind of, it felt like we were on this track of like, well, we’re studying engineering. What were the opportunities? We’re going to open an engineering firm together. Exactly. There were two different disciplines and then I was convinced, even while I was in school, that I wasn’t going to be an engineer, right? So I tried, I proposed the idea to my parents about changing my major because we come from a different generation. Our kids would just come to us and say, I’m changing my major. Yeah, we had to go to our parents and like ask permission to change our major whether that’s better or worse it’s just a different generation and uh I was like, I want to change the communications because I think i’m just going to go into ministry because I had done Um the summer two summer projects and I was like, I think i’m going to go on stent which is like short term international It’s where you go to another country for like A year or longer and you, you know, you evangelize in another country. And so I was kind of thinking I might do that. And I was already kind of thinking I was going to marry Jesse. And so I was like, well, she’s not even graduated from college yet. So my mind was in this place where I was like, I don’t know. I’m going to do something like that because we didn’t. And I was thinking I’m going to do something responsible because I’m getting this degree. And. My family would kill me if I didn’t use my degree, is probably what I was thinking. But really, but Campus Crusade, I mean, Christmas Conference? Was we had no intentions on stopping doing that and I think in my mind, I wouldn’t have articulated it this way But if you had asked me what is the big thing that you guys did together at that point? I’d be like Christmas conference. Yeah, and then maybe one day we’ll get to emcee big break the national which we ended up doing the national conference in Panama City And, and so I think that I was thinking about it in that context because entertainment, for entertainment’s sake, wasn’t something we were interested in or even knew what a path would be. Right. So I think, to me, it was like, oh, we found our calling, it’s ministry, and we’re going to use our comedic gifts or whatever in that context, and that’s the thing we’re doing together. But, I didn’t know, I didn’t have any specific, like, path in mind. And, And there was this dynamic of you were generating more opportunities because you were in front of audiences as basically a comedian. And I felt like it was more up to you to include me or not and I wasn’t gonna like push or beg for it. So for the, so the fact that that happened, and that. You know, there was a point where it was like in my through my lens. It was like you kind of bringing me along, you know, I don’t know if you thought about it that way, but like, there might have been a little self consciousness that it wasn’t like people weren’t demanding a duo. They were saying, Hey, here’s an opportunity for you to keep him seeing stuff. And so, um, to me, when we created a comedy show that was, you know, Very much equal. Like that was the next thing where we were trying something again. Now we’re in this point where it’s like, how much of these career pivotal moments and how much are they friendship moments? Well, they’re completely both because it was this acknowledgement that like, we can do this and we’re going for this together. We’re taking this big risk. We’re taking, we’re dreaming about it and we’re following through with it. And yeah, it was when Colin Cole, my brother’s giving us an opportunity to do something. So let. Let’s make a comedy show that works in the context of a crew meeting. He was like, can you create like an hour long show? That’s evangelistic in nature, but comedy based. And that was when we created that show and we were working as engineers and it gave us, it gave us a reason to get together. Like would we get together and just hang out? Yes. But like we live probably 40 minutes apart. Once we were both married. And so, it’s hard to get together, you know, you’re newlyweds, you’re trying to build a life, you’re in different communities, all of a sudden we had very little overlap, yet we were still, we were volunteering doing this thing that brought us together on a weekly basis, we were writing, we were still doing the things, we were writing songs, we were coming up with bits, we were making plans, and we were obsessing about it, and this will come into play a little bit later, and it was fun, This will come into play a little bit later with, you know, another pivotal moment, but I think one of the reasons that I’ve always saw these things as hand in hand is like our career and our friendship, which we talked about previously, can be, can be, there’s a, there’s a, there’s an interpretation of that, which is just like, Oh, well, if we weren’t working together, we wouldn’t be friends. Which we can talk about how we kind of addressed that and talked about that years later. But, to me, how do you cultivate a friendship, right? You spend time together doing the things that you’re passionate about. So some people might be like, yeah, that’s my golfing buddy. I play golf with this guy. Or this is my, the guy that I, uh, we love getting together and doing this activity. Like, we love archery. You know, we get together and we’re in the archery club and you know, we talk about life and that right. Our hobby is our career now. We have other hobbies, but when you, when I think about the one thing that I would rather do more than any other thing is create, that’s my hobby. If I was an engineer, I would have a. creative Hobby on the side. I would be like, yeah, I do I do these creative endeavors. I have a youtube channel where I talk about So and so so and so but my full time job is engineer. I have no doubt that that’s what we would be doing and so That was always a point of connection to me and I never saw it as a cheapening. I saw it as a This is my hobby. I and it’s also his hobby And now it’s become, slowly over the course of that, like making that decision to do that comedy show, then Shane saying, can you guys turn this into an actual ministry position, us turning it into, again, we’ve talked about all of this, I hate to keep saying that, but we’ve talked about this in detail, so I’m moving quickly, but we became full time missionaries with Campus Crusade for Christ, using our comedy evangelism. And that’s when, I think that was a really significant period of time for our friendship, because, We ended up traveling around the United States together. Sometimes just me and you, sometimes we would bring the wives and the kids. Yeah. More often we didn’t because it was too expensive. So we would just be, we would fly somewhere and rent a car or we would drive there. And so we were on the road together sleeping in the same hotel room because again, we had no money. Right. And so it was like the idea of getting two hotel rooms. Like what, who do you think we are? And so. We spent so much time together, we would be in the car together, we would be working together, we would travel around and then we would go back to the hotel room, and we would share a bathroom together, right? Like, it was, those are really pivotal, we do not do that now. We, like, we get our own hotel room. Yeah, we don’t, we don’t. We don’t need that. Forty years of friendship, the one thing you do need is you need separate bathrooms. Right. But at the time, it was this pivotal thing of just like, doing life together. And I keep going back to like, the dreams never got smaller. They kept getting bigger, and we went after it. And so it was extremely risky, um, and exciting. And it, it required a lot, but it was rewarding and it was fun and it was, I mean, the, the amount of time spent adventuring, you know, the, the version of going out and chasing cows, you know, when you add a specific dream and objectives to that, that you’re completely aligned on, it just, it just cures the friendship. It just solidifies it. I, I think, you know, it, if forever, um. And it wasn’t like us doing that and spending that time together was causing us to be like, I don’t think we should, uh, I don’t want to, I don’t want to do this anymore. It was very much like, We got, we got to keep doing this and we like, we got to get better at this. We got to, we got to see where this thing can take us. And again, it wasn’t at the time it wasn’t to become professional entertainers. It was still within the context of this ministry, but we had an idea that this ministry could be huge. You know, the thing that makes me so excited right now is. If you just clip out what you just said, and I’ll be like, Oh, he’s talking about Wonderhole. He’s talking about what we’re doing right now, you know, I think that’s the thing that is, makes me so happy. That’s the last thing we’re going to talk about. But don’t get ahead of yourself. Okay, but it is completely mirrored in it. Okay. Oh, yeah. All right. So we’ll get back to it. Let me look at my list here. Damn. First comedy show did that. Um, there’s, there’s so many like little points. Unless you’ve got a specific one, I, I, the place that my mind goes is the road trip out here to California. Well, I think before, before we moved out, the, the online nation trips were still like that. It was, it was the same thing that we were talking about. Like you and I traveling out here to LA for the first time shooting a television show. That we started to realize how it sucked. Yeah, and like that whole experience and we left and we left staff Because we had to in order to do it. And again, oh, yeah at the time the the the Rationalization was oh, we’re going to have so much More opportunity for ministry by actually going into the belly of the beast. And again, we’ll get into why, what, you know, what, what happened, but I, well, we’ll talk about the road. I think I can contextualize what actually happened in the road trip. I definitely put that on my list. The, what we called, because we filmed it, we filmed it ourselves. There was nobody else there. The mythical road trip series, which was basically us moving out to LA. Like driving a U Haul with all of our crap in it. One U Haul, half full of your stuff, half full of my stuff, pulling my minivan behind, driving all the way across the country and announcing. Where we were at what rest stops we were going to pull over at so fans can line up and meet us And that was I think yeah, that was A big milestone in our friendship. I mean it was it’s iconic moving across the country and You know, we left our families behind because we’re doing them a favor and it put them on a plane. Yeah, put them on a plane once we got all our shit out here. And then we had this, this special trip, you know, that we were taking that was content. I think we were, I think we were probably still saying in the same hotel room, by the way. Probably. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why not? We, I mean, I don’t know if you remember it this way. Um, and again, we’ve talked about, we’ve done whole podcasts about the deconstruction and like where the, how we got from being a Christian to not being a Christian, um, no matter how many times we talk about it, the story for a lot of people will be, well, it’s because you came in or it’s because you moved to California. That’s what happened. Right. Um, even though it was happening very early, yeah. When we were in North Carolina, and in this road trip, I remember, it wasn’t the first time, but some of the most memorable conversations of me telling you that I thought that it was all bullshit happened on that road trip. Really? Because I, I, I have this picture of us being in this U Haul. You driving sometimes, me driving sometimes, and me basically just being like, I just don’t, like, here’s all the things that I can’t believe anymore, and here’s the little sliver that I’m holding on to, and that is just the concept of, the idea of Jesus and the gospel. That was what I had. Yeah. Right? But I had let go of a lot of fundamental beliefs about the Bible being true and I hadn’t quite dove so deeply into like, you know, the historicity of Jesus and that stuff, but I was kind of like in the like, but telling you a bunch of things during that trip, it totally times out that I was like, I just, you know, I don’t know what exactly, I still felt like I still had this sort of, you know, Evangelistic mindset that like we were still like going out to California and like Jesus was going to use us for something. But because I was so much less certain about my beliefs before we ever got to California. I remember that road trip being significant in that sense too. I think I talked to you more directly about that stuff. Definitely. Then than any other. Yeah, because. I was, you know, the opportunity to move out allowed me to skirt having to leave my church, which I was, you know, On the verge of doing so, I was, I was very much there on my own journey as far as that particular road trip and that those particular conversations, um, reflecting like our friendship and it being such an important part. I think it’s that this was a say it was a secret and sacred. Uh, exchange. We were filming, we had a GoPro. We would film, anytime we would think we wanted to film something, we would turn on the camera in the U Haul as we were driving across the country. Cause we, we had our minds, we had mapped out a bunch of videos we wanted to make, but then one of them was just, we’re gonna capture what we were, you know, just the experience and some of the conversations. You can see in one of the videos, we were talking about our hopes and dreams related to our career, and it was like, very real. Um, but you know what we never did? We never rolled on the camera when we were having these like, Deep soul searching conversations. And I’m so glad we didn’t at the time. It would take 10 years before we, we opened the doors to those conversations. But the amount of time that we spent having those conversations, it wasn’t, the reason why I don’t remember it is because there were so many. Again, if you add up the time spent talking about the depths of our soul and what was changing and how scary that was, I think that’s the undertone of like the, the spiritual evolutions that we were each on, um, was very scary and disconcerting. And. Um, uh, it’s just throws your life off balance and the fact that we had a completely safe and open place to discuss it. All the time, all the time, like I remember once we got here and we, I remember we, we would get lunch in, um, you know, around studio city and I, I remember all the times walking up and down the street and, or on our, cause back then we could, we could go to places to eat lunch. Now we’re too busy to go places to eat lunch. That would be our time that we would just, we couldn’t help it. We would just talk about it. Hours and hours adding up of. Just processing. It’s like, and what does this mean? What does this mean for? Like our salvation for our future, for our families, for our, uh, marriages, for our friendship, you know, it was like, it, it, it could have been a threat to that because certainly we weren’t exactly always on the same page, you know, so it was like, Oh shit, I think that’s, I think that’s a, that’s a really interesting observation. It was huge to have that. There’s a really interesting aspect to that was unequivocally the most important thing in our lives. And it was being dismantled, right? And the funny thing is that there’s a lot of times. Because that’s so foundational, when that foundation goes away, a lot of things that were built on that, whether that be a friendship, a marriage, a career, those things crumble as well. But to me, and I’ve only, and I’ve actually only ever talked about this explicitly, In the context of my marriage, because it’s a little bit more, uh, it’s a more relatable story that people who are married and are both Christians and became and got married under those pretenses and on that foundation, one of them or both of them change their worldview and then they get divorced super common story that didn’t happen with me and Jesse didn’t happen when you and Christie and that was, and we’ve always said that like, wow, uh, We kind of learned that our love for each other was actually not rooted in that worldview. That worldview was just a way of seeing the world. It wasn’t the way to see the world. It was a way to see the world. Now we see the world in a different way. We could be wrong. I don’t think you can be particularly sure about that. But our love kind of survived that because it wasn’t based in that. And as we talk about this, I’m realizing our friendship wasn’t based in that. It was enhanced by that. It was, having that common mission was really, you know, strategic for a lot of ways. And it, and it also, it wouldn’t have existed without it. At a certain point, as we’ve already established, but it never crossed our minds that, oh, we’re not Christians anymore. So we’re not going to be friends. And at the same time, it never crossed our minds. Oh, we’re not Christians anymore. So we’re going to stop believing these ridiculously unrealistic dreams that we thinking things are going to come true. Oh, I think it crossed my mind because I was because you were ahead of me and I was like, okay, he’s He’s not going to be a Christian. I’m going to be a Christian. And I think, I think we can keep this together because I just don’t think I care as much as he does. So I think I can just, and then you know what? When he, when he comes, if I’m just, if, if we stay in that realm of not being completely aligned on what we believe, we’re still aligned on so many other things. Thanks. And he’ll come back around. There was a, there was a window of time when it was just like, okay. He’s going off. It’s just a phase. It’s going off. It’s been plenty of phases before. That’s what parents want to believe. And that’s what I would tell myself. And it might’ve been just for a period of like one, two, three months. I can’t remember. But I do remember having that thought. Yeah. And saying, I’m just going to listen and be a sounding board. And, you know, I knew that I wanted to keep the conversation open and ride it out. You know, I wasn’t, you know, I was never one to argue. So. There was a strategy at a certain point. It was like, okay, I felt, I feel like there could be a threat to our bond here. I’m just going to ride it out. And then I might be saving his life eternally at some point. That’s not how it went. Um, yeah, and I never, never, never, that never really crossed my mind. That’s because I’m such a great friend. I mean, it crossed, it crossed my mind about my marriage. Sure. And the only reason it crossed my mind is because I had been told Right, right. By everyone that I knew. Me too. That the only way you can stay together is if you’re both rooted in Jesus and so then all of a sudden you’re not and you’re like, okay, is this one, it just ends. I think it was such, but, but just to get back to it was such, it was so formative to our friendship to have something that was just for. Us, like the, I mean, and well, it was deeply personal. It was also for me and Christy. It was also for you and Jesse. And then the four of us were also talking about it. The way that we talked about it, I think was so, going through that experience together of spiritual deconstruction was extremely formative because it was, there was no chance of it being, there being a public component or a business component. It was, it was a personal spiritual friendship thing for us, it was very, it was clean in that way, um, and very deep in that way. So it was nice for it not to have the, the career and business parts of it, it directly wound up in it. So it’s, I mean, it’s definitely, I mean, it’s probably top three. It’s not an actual moment, but it’s like. It’s a big phase. So where you at next? Well, so there’s a bit of a blur once we get to California and everything starts growing over the past 14 years, right? Yeah. Um, and we basically have just continued on this track of relentlessly pursuing this dream together, hand in hand, still sharing an office. And just these things keep happening and we’re kind of just there for them. And it’s the career and the friendship. But I think that that to that for me brings to mind. I don’t know what you, I mean, I can’t remember exactly what year it was when you wrote that letter to me that we’ve talked about. We talked about, I don’t know how much we’ve talked about it, we talked about it on Howie’s podcast more so than we talked about it on our podcast. Um, but it seems like it was I don’t know. What year was that? There was the letter that I wrote because it was about if our friendship is just about what we’re doing publicly. If it’s just about the work, I don’t want to keep doing it. It was basically like, you know. It got, the balance got out of whack for me. Like, the, the work got away from us and it, and it. And it, um, I felt like our connection was thinning. I would say around 2016, 2017. So 2017 is sort of the pinnacle of this happening. Of us. Overcommitting, right? Cause that’s GMM 22 where we did like five episodes, five videos a day, buddy system, too many things. Christie’s head injury was happening at the same time. Uh, and so those things combining created a sense where. It may have been true and what I said earlier may have been true that I’m still doing my hobby with my best friend and I’m seeing you as much as I’ve ever seen you spending as much time with you as I’ve ever spent with you, but we’re both really stressed out. It’s work. We’re just working together. And not necessarily being friends together. And that was your, that was your interpretation of it. And I don’t think it was a wrong interpretation. My response to you at the time was what I just said a second ago, which is, Oh, well, I’ve never really seen it this way because I feel like I’m doing the thing that I love with my best friend. And so us going after this dream that’s getting bigger and bigger and bigger feels right to me. And you were kind of like, what about the stuff that’s not work related, right? Because that’s, that’s the, that’s sort of the pitfall of it becoming a, your hobby becoming your job. And your friendship being, you know, monetized in a lot of ways. And, and also doing too many things. That led to me going to therapy. That’s when I started going to therapy. When I had my physical manifestation of stress and, but there was, so there’s two fa, there’s like, then there was a time period after that and then there was, then that email came back up at a second, like not too long ago, like maybe last year. Okay. So it was what was coming out of the, maybe two years ago coming outta the pandemic? I don’t know. I just remember I was with Jesse. I don’t know what, I don’t know how it came up and I was like. I think this is me going to therapy for, you know, having gone to therapy for a few years and getting more in touch with my own emotions, but also just sort of like, Making a concerted effort to like, increase my emotional intelligence. Um, where I was like, Hey, Link wrote that letter to me, that email. Let me see if I can dig it up. Right. And I like, dug it up, and read it. And then I read my response, and I was like, Oh wow, this is ni This is not how I would respond now to this because the way I responded was like yeah I don’t see it that way like I actually think that we spend all kinds of time together and our friendship is as good as It’s ever been I don’t see a dichotomy between Let’s just go do stuff. That isn’t work related like let’s go paddleboarding and then let’s make videos together Like they all seem the same thing, but I was like that was a really insensitive response to that because I didn’t actually validate your actual concern and be like, I understand what you mean by that. And like, we didn’t, if that’s how you see it, then we never, we didn’t, this is what we can do to, to meet eye to eye on that. We didn’t see eye to eye at the time. And I don’t recall how much of it, I don’t recall concluding completely from your response. Like, okay, I give up. This is it we’re done or something. Cause that didn’t happen. It was somewhere in the middle. It was like, this is. I don’t, it wasn’t the response that I was needing, which you recognized when you revisited it. I don’t think I, I can’t really recall exactly where I landed on it, but it was kind of somewhere in the middle, you know, at least I got it out there and there was like an, an effort to like, Put some work into our friendship separate from our work But it was kind of this it didn’t fix it because like you said when you revisited it was like, oh shit That’s I I missed him right when you revisited it. It was in the context of um you know the pandemic the your james and the shame being an independent project that like We had some We had some barriers built between us That made it hard to discuss that openly and we drew, I drew, I, you know, I was hurt by a process that if, that you weren’t doing anything wrong, but the way that we, um, the way that we didn’t talk about it. And see each other about it wasn’t good for our relationship. So I think within that context, as best I can remember, it was, or at least around the same time, you revisited that email and pulled it up. And I think that, like, you kind of, well, you apologizing about that and you kind of owning. And, uh, like some regrets associated with how you responded was a pivotal part of kind of breaking down those walls in our communication so that, you know, we could, we could see each other again, you know, and, uh, So I think it was in, you know, it was, it was very difficult because it was kind of a part, there was a part A and a part B to it, you know, would, and it definitely a year in between. Right? Oh, yeah. Right. So at least, at least, but it kind of bringing that part a back into the part B where we were having these like post pandemic issues. Kind of like brought it all out. And yeah, it was like a new level of, um, talking about the friendship and talking about what, what we wanted and what, what being able to express our needs. And, um, I know that was a big takeaway for me is to say, well, uh, if, if my needs aren’t being met in this friendship, that’s something that I can bring up instead of just. If I harbor resentment, that’s gonna, that’s gonna build a wall, you know, we’re not the same people, we may not have the exact same needs, that doesn’t mean that we don’t love each other, and that we don’t need each other, you know, but, um, we’ve always, when people ask us like, what’s the key to having such a long lasting friendship, I, we, you know, We say it in a lot of different ways, but it boils down to communication, I mean so much of it, and like hard work to make a relationship work. Everything that we’ve learned in our marriages to make those work, those principles apply in their own way in our friendship. And we talk about that. You never know what circumstances come together to make that extremely difficult to do. And I think that’s what we discovered. And, but then we discovered that we did have it in us to. To say, to like be completely exposed and put ourselves out there and get through it. And so, it’s, it’s funny to me how it’s fuzzy because it was so pivotal in terms of who we are. And. As as a friendship duo, you know, I think it it’s certainly a Again, I I mean definitely a top five maybe a top three, you know going through that I think so. It was it was like I would say it was the number one Test of our friendship, like realizing our promise to one another ironically became the biggest, um, threat to our friendship, you know, uh, and it, it, it could have, it, it could have gone a sad way. Like it ne it never got to the edge. Like the, I have no story. You know? I guess when I was writing the letter, writing that email, I remember I wrote it on a plane and I was like very, I mean, that felt very on the edge of like, is this is kinda like a breakup letter? It could be, it could be be the beginning of the end of our friendship as we know it, but because I don’t know, there was a lot of beautiful moments in there and I think because we worked through it and we like. You showed up in a way that at one point you weren’t capable of and then you became capable of it and you showed up and that meant the world and I think in my own way. I, I’m sure I was doing the same thing. I wasn’t, you know, I was a different person from writing the email from when we revisited it too. And I think that a big part of it is what communication is important is like, when you think about like the, the weight that you attach to that email, uh, there, there’s a, you know, there’s a negative interpretation of the weight that I didn’t attach to it, which is like, oh, I didn’t see you and I didn’t hear you. The positive, uh, side of that is. Like it never it crossed my mind that we that there was ever a breakup that was even a possibility It would I would have been like what are you talking about? That’s ridiculous, right? and I think that that leads into and we’ve talked about this extensively but like the James and the shame stuff to like right for me it was never I’m doing this thing that’s gonna be my thing and Links not part of it and this might become something big like it was always very much just like Our friendship is solid. Our working relationship is solid. Our career path is not changing. Our career goals are not changing. I’ve got this thing that I feel like I have to do, and so, isn’t perceived as a threat to me, but that doesn’t mean that you perceiving it as a threat is insignificant. But, because it wasn’t a, because I didn’t see it like I was doing something threatening, I didn’t appreciate that. The way that you saw it and because we didn’t talk about it So I think the biggest lesson that I learned in all of that is like just communicate These things and think about how your actions can be interpreted and actually get on the same page about things, right? So that I mean that that’s kind of where for me the biggest lesson in all of that was like I mean, first of all, i’m just a different person than I was when you wrote that email I wouldn’t respond in the same way to your credit. You did Will like physically show up Like, I landed, I got home, sent the email, the next day you were physically in my backyard and we were sitting there talking about it. Yeah, I mean, it wasn’t that I didn’t He dismissed it. You didn’t dis I mean, you weren’t an asshole about it. You just, you, you didn’t see it all, but I basically just told you, I was essentially like, I don’t know why you’re talking me down. I don’t know why you see it this way because it’s not true, but you were there. I mean, you, you literally showed up, so it wasn’t like you were an asshole. You were the, you were the best you could be at the time, right? But I do think that this all leads up to eventually we have to end this podcast. But again, well, let me say one thing about this, you know, the thing I feel about, again, I find it interesting that it’s fuzzy because it was so formative to our friendship now, but I also find that like. As I talk about it, I’m not, like, the emotions that I feel, like, if, like, I feel like I could cry about this, but the way that I would cry about it is that I think it’s a beautiful thing. I think it would be tears of joy. Like, I’m not, uh, like, it’s not welling up any undealt with emotions. Wounds like, and yeah, I mean, thank God for therapy for both of us. Right. Because I know for me, there was a lot of like, yeah, there were, there were tears and talking through it. And like me having my own process, which was just for me and then allowing us to have our process. But now it’s not like I feel good about talking about it. Yeah. And I, I think that’s why it’s fuzzy because. It’s in the past, and it’s like, I’ve, I’ve, the application, the lessons learned I think are baked in, you know, whether I remember the details or not, so it’s not like, oh shit, am I gonna, are we gonna repeat the past? No, I don’t think so. I think that, um, I feel, I just feel, I feel really good about talking about it. You know? Yeah. And that says a lot. Well, and I think a big, a big difference with where we’re at right now, and this kind of leads into, like, the most recent, but also the next and final piece, as far as I’m concerned, is our decision to do what we’re doing with Wonderhole, right? Yeah. Which is a, um, you know, we talked about the reasons for why we’re doing it the way we’re doing it, right? In it, you know, a disillusionment with trying to do things and it went to a traditional path and just making the decision to just make the thing that you want to make. But I think that the. The significance of this as it ties into our friendship is that the foundation, you could say in many ways, the foundation of everything that we do from a content perspective is our, is our friendship, right? That’s the, that’s sort of the bread and butter of Good Mythical Morning. It’s just us being together, hanging out. But Wonderhole is significant in that it’s the place where the friendship is the foundation, but also our passion for the things that we want to create together meet. Good Mythical Morning is Our friendship on display, but we’re stepping into a framework that has been maybe established by us a long time ago, but it’s something it’s not a synergistic expression of an artistic adventure. Yeah, and we have no plans to stop doing it. And we love doing it. The thing that we want from a creative passion standpoint, we want to make the stuff where we’re. Trying things and we’re experimenting and we’re, there’s been this getting on the same page creatively and like trying things and not knowing whether or not something’s going to work, but knowing exactly what we’re trying to make work, but also from a subject matter standpoint. Being able to really explore our friendship and turn the lessons that we’ve learned as friends into The message that we’re communicating through this project. Yeah, it’s been Pretty freaking significant from a friendship standpoint. I’m really excited that We’re we’ve processed Enough and now have got no point of appreciating what we’ve got to a point where we can turn around and package it as a gift to other people. And I think it’s something that we’ve done. I mean, looking for Miss Locklear back. It’s on the list for the, for that reason, GMM is what it is. It’s interesting that we didn’t talk about starting it, but like that is a pivotal moment like that. I would say the first episode, like a pivotal friendship moment, of course. Um, and all the planning and the hatching of that, uh, can’t go without saying, but yeah, I think that packaging, packaging it as a gift for people and make, making people feel good, you know, it’s, uh, And it’s just been, it’s just been fun because it’s what, it’s just of all the things that we do that, you know, the creative process, like really being in a room and being like, what if, What if this happens? What if we try to do this and then this? Like, that’s, that’s what we’re passionate about. That’s our hobby. And, you know, everything else that we do, I mean, obviously, we get to sit here and make a podcast where we talk to each other and catch up, and it’s a product that our company makes. It’s frickin, who, how does that happen? How do you get the privilege of doing that? I’m not gonna lose sight of that. But again, it’s. Talking to each other. It’s not there’s not a creative same level of creative element to it. Um, so there’s just this strange and wonderful coalescence of a lot of things that are significant. And then the net effect is we end up. Spending a lot of time together traveling together to make this stuff like we end up spending time together And then while we’re together we are Discussing the thing that we’re doing which is making this piece of content that is a tribute to our friendship But that kind of is what that’s sort of what we keep coming back to I had a couple of smaller ones, but nothing that I that it would make sense to go back to now You’re so many so many little things. Yeah, this is but yeah, that’s it. I think that’s the It’s nice to know that like the core of What has made our friendship work is where we’re operating from now That’s what that’s what wonder hole is and I think a lot of way, you know First of all, and it’s gonna take work for it’s what we are applying a lot of work You Personally for it to stay there and because it’s hard it’s hard for it to stay something that is it’s a lot of things besides just to you know just just that like joyful creative partnership and so we’re trying our best to preserve that as the core of of this and it’s, you know, back when we were kids spending the night and just having dumb conversations or. Deciding to see if we can get the cows to cross this stream for no reason, just because that’s what we want to be our objective today. Like that level of playful, um, open ended adventure, I think is, is where we still are. Yeah, that’s what, that’s what’s so wonderful about it. And just the, the, you know, In, in itself, just making the thing and putting it out there is part of the adventure. You know, as we record this, we are just a couple of days after the release of the first episode, which has been well received. Um, and I think that over overwhelmingly positive reception and people kind of understanding what it is that we’re trying to do and kind of getting it in the way that we were hoping that some people will get it. We know not everybody’s gonna get it. Um, but I think that. There’s been quite there’s some there are questions like why oh, I thought this is gonna be a scripted show Like I thought you guys hold on now you getting into work. What can’t we talk about work? No, no, but what I want to talk about a friendship. No, no, but by answer to to Is the reason the show is what it is and not that we’ll never do something that’s like yeah This is a scripted serialized show one of the reasons Yeah is because That when you think when you kind of take our friendship and you and our creative partnership and you break it open and you look At its parts. You’re like, oh, well these guys just being friends together And experiencing something together is, is such an, and who’s going to say what, is such an important part of our friendship and even our creative process. Yeah. So that’s an element of it. But then the, oh, what if this thing happens? What if there’s a song? What if we do this little stupid sketch? What if the world changes in this way? Right, right. That’s also an aspect of our passion. And so, My answer, well it’s twofold. The reason that the show is what it is is because A, the platform that we’re making it for, and so there are certain sort of restrictions that lead you into the direction that we ended up going. But, just as important, is that is, it’s much more representative of our friendship than say, buddy system. Mhmm. Because that like, oh, two guys in the bathroom, butt to butt, trying to change clothes, is a encapsulation of our friendship. That we didn’t want to leave out, I guess is ultimately what I’m saying. It’s like, the show is what it is, in some ways, because of that. That’s who we are. So if we do five years from now, 10 years from now, 45, 50 years of friendship, we’ll have that much more stuff to put on the list. That’s how I feel about it. And I can’t wait. We’re just getting started. Happy 40th friend anniversary. Speaking of. Happy anniversary in shaking hands. You’re gonna promote that now, huh? Oh yeah. Look at this iconic moment. We merchandised it. Look at the iconic moment, Link. We didn’t talk about us shaking hands at the senior prom. Yep. Which has become a logo now. That’s a cool sweatshirt there. Celebrate your friendship with Mythical. Um, yeah, happy anniversary, man. What are we gonna do on the actual day? Well, that’s just for me and you to talk about. Get a steak dinner? Alright, we’ll talk at you next week. And, uh, leave us a voicemail. 1 888 EAR POD 1 And a nice review. See ya. Just gotta let you two know, and you probably hear this all the time, that I made a best friend because of Mythical and Good Mythical Morning and all that, but she said yes to being a bridesmaid in my wedding, even though we live across the country from each other, all because I sent her a little Dink It and Sink It shot glass and said, will you be my bridesmaid? So thank you for allowing me to do that. Love the merchandise. Talk at you next week.