just a quick warning before we get started due to the nature of this week’s guests content this week’s ear biscuit is going to contain some sexually explicit conversation so if you don’t think you should be listening to specifically sexually explicit conversation you can skip this ear biscuit and join us next week you’ve been warned welcome to ear biscuits I’m Rhett and I’m link joining us today once again from VidCon where we recorded a handful of ear biscuits is one of the most notable internet personalities with a focus on sex education on YouTube Laci green in case you aren’t familiar with Laci she describes herself as a sex education activist and her YouTube channel is home to her very frank video series about sex called sex + the number one sex education show on YouTube the channel currently has 1.3 million subscribers and has racked up over a hundred and thirteen million video views now Laci offers advice and support that covers a wide variety of topics here’s a few of the titles of her videos just to give you an idea what she covers 10 secret vagina facts so feminism in horror films a is for abstinence shaving pubes Wow and transgender adventure no matter what you’re looking for in sex education I think the point is chances are Laci has at least one video for you and she has a great answer for why she titles the videos the way that she does but we certainly got into a lot more than just the titles of the videos we talked to Laci about her background which includes growing up in a strict Mormon household and why she decided to leave the Mormon religion why she became interested in sex education and feminist activism in the first place and what led her to create her YouTube channel sex Plus and also her MTV webseries braless that she’s been hosting for going on three seasons now and also towards the end of the podcast we talked in depth about the entire Sam pepper incident she was very centrally involved in that she recounts the story from the beginning and helps us hone in an important message for all of us in the YouTube community so make sure that you stick around to listen to that we really had a great time talking with Laci getting to know her and her story and we know that you’ll enjoy this biscuit too but first we want to Ryan you to check out our animated song biscuits on our YouTube channel good mythical morning you guys know song biscuits we wrote songs with ear biscuit guests with input from Twitter and then we release those on Saturdays well now we’ve animated our favorite ones on GMM so make sure you look for that yeah on Saturdays on the good mythical morning channel now all to the biscuit so you’ve got an interesting water bottle here that you brought we provide little waters but you brought your own thing because you didn’t you didn’t know if we were gonna do that for you it wasn’t it has a built-in cup it does it’s also you know can you describe it like it’s a vagina I assumed I didn’t even have to say that if you I’m gonna tell you about my water bottle but I’m gonna do it in terms of of a jacket there’s a lot of parts missing on this water but I mean that’s gonna be a tough analogy it’s a weird water bottle I mean it’s it’s got a cusp of that weird I mean is there a valve right in there no no you just in the world it works with it works with gravity there’s no Volvo well there’s no boat no clitoris either I gotta say so I was expecting Laci to kind of take the conversation there naturally oh but yeah I mean you can feel free to just start there that’s well because you know honestly one of the questions that we did have for you is you know we’re VidCon yes and this is like the pinnacle of fan interaction right this is when it gets real real it is so real out there right now so when you yes like you said that like this is the middle of a zombie apocalypse and we and we can say we’ve taken refuge right now but during this time do you find yourself like how often do people come up do what link just did like immediately ask a question when you describe your water bottle more specifically just coming up and being like I really need some sex advice right now well yeah it happens oh it does yeah it happens but I think it happens little mate but when it did happen what happened people I think they just kind of hold on to their questions and then they pull me aside really you know secretly hey can I ask you a quick question or hey I love your work can I just ask you a really quick question really it’s never a good question question like you’ve been asking a question here at VidCon yes what had I feel like I’m betraying just about like period stuff sex stuff if the condom was on right I’m worried that it broke do you think I should take plan B you know just kind of like teenagers who are worried about doing sex right and there’s a lot of concern about a lot of the urgent questions I get are worried that like oh my god do I have an STD or am I like putting myself at risk for pregnancy even if they’re the safest ever like sometimes II will describe the safest sex in the world that you can have as safe as it can be right and they’re still scared and so they have these questions and this is the type of email that I get the most – so when people are talking to me in person and on email and on Twitter they’re urgent like please it’s our right now I already know what it’s about you know it’s a sex fear stuff right and so when you get those questions in an environment like VidCon or just on the street wherever mm-hmm is there a okay I’m gonna take this time because I can’t imagine this obligation you know we just get asked to be funny and then do a little bit something funny and then we move on right or just a picture yeah which that’s easy compared to what you are being asked to do no one has ever asked us about a condom right really we know we know if your guy’s condoms don’t work there’s enough children our merch do you have like a go-to thing which is like okay I’m gonna give you a short and sweet answer I’m be sympathetic and try to or I’m just gonna be like listen you know I do this yes for a living but I’m not a doctor and if you really have the question about this you like what do you do it’s just like talking to a friend right so you’re like here’s what I know about what you told me here’s the best advice that I can give you I’m obviously not a doctor if you’re really worried about something please go see a doctor you know and a lot of times people are just looking for a little bit of like someone knows my you know I struggle my secret my fear my worry right now so I can be that person for them right I can be like hey it’s okay like this is a common thing a lot of people deal with this here’s probably you know based on what you’re saying to me here’s probably what’s going on you probably don’t have anything to worry about but if you are worried go get tested or go to the doctor but you also can’t reply to every email once you start talking about the emails that you get no I cannot do that there’s too many emails I mean that seems like a weighty reality to know that people are emailing you in desperation but it’s not even feasible for you to reply to all these people yeah and if you hired a team yeah that’s true I do have a lot of anxiety about the amount of email that I get and the seriousness of some of the questions like there’s some really serious stuff people come to me with and I cannot you’re right like I cannot handle all of that myself and I’ve just had to make a disclaimer you know on my website if this is emergency I can’t be 911 one you know I just can’t one human being yeah and this is a lot of stuff across a you know a huge spectrum of topics to that I’m not always an expert in you know right yeah I mean I would say that every once in a while like we’ll see like a question or somebody will tweet me like you know this person turns out to be something like this person really wants to harm themselves can you guys and if that happens once every four months for us I can imagine that happens once every four hours for you yeah it happens a lot more because I think people feel like they can’t talk to me about it yeah so they do yeah yeah when you’re so I mean how would you describe you know your tone it blatantly honest in your face just how do you describe it yeah I think those are good words to describe what I do I think it’s really Frank and also very friendly you know I’m a friend that’s the way that I think of my relationship with the people that watch my videos is I’m not your doctor I’m not your teacher I’m not your lawyer I’m not this I’m your friend I happen to have a little bit more knowledge about some of these areas so I could probably help you out but then the day I’m just a friend and I’m just a person you know who happens to be interested in these in these Olympics and I do my homework and stuff so I try to help people out because I’m pretty good at research and you know I have a lot of research training in my education so I think that I can bring that skill set to people and make information more accessible so I think those are the types of you know the way that people digest my content in the way that I see it mm-hmm and you found yourself being the modern-day dr. Ruth of the Internet is that a title that you’ll own dr. J character I don’t know if I can compare myself to her she’s a hoot it she’s still living right yes but did you but have you liked what came first were you already doing this and then you found out about dr. Ruth or do you know about dr. Ruth like like growing up I knew about doctorate oh come on doctor I don’t know we’re old you didn’t know about dr. no we did but we think no sometimes we don’t know okay for the past 15 years maybe she’s falling out of vogue yeah yeah I think people know who dr. Ruth is relevant Cultural Revolution you own the title doctor yeah I don’t mean like on the domain name I just mean like are you comfortable you should have biz Netcom monarchy dr. Ruth or the Internet no I don’t really own that as my title I guess a lot of people use that to describe me but I guess they just see it as a little bit different what I do how much she does um I don’t know you don’t have the accent and she’s a little bit more harsh she’s kind of got like a he’s crotchety which seems like a weird pun yeah she is she’s a little bit more like taking it you know she doesn’t want to mess around or like deal with your feelings I’m I’m more okay with talking about feelings you like how are you doing like the emotional dilation your style is different but that that’s why you’re the modern-day Internet version of her right so you’re saying I’m like that the 2.0 yes dr. Ruth 2.0 okay I’ll take it I’ll take it you are now taking that I’m taking I’m owning it but it definitely dumb you know so it you have been described that way by like it seems like the kind of thing that like if like a traditional news outlet is trying to explain who you are that’s with it that would be like the go-to we think like traditional news outlets what we’re trying to say dr. Ruth demonic dr. Ruth except I’m not a doctor they don’t really they call me Laci this expert a word sexpert is a word people use that word to describe me too I feel very uncomfortable with any of the really authoritative titles right like dr. expert all of these things I’m not a doctor like that’s a formal designation right but even expert is thrown around a little bit more especially in the internet age like who’s an expert what makes you an expert and people have referred to me as an expert but sexpert is just so wait it’s just like okay don’t take me too seriously not really an expert I’m a sexpert right it’s kind of like a little bit of a sexual and obviously I mean sexually but it’s like sexualized a little bits like yeah like I’m a sex for at least that’s how I’ve heard people use it and when people use it to describe me I feel like I’m okay with it which is it we want to get into that too because we want to but I think we should save it because we want to get into the some of the the do’s and don’ts for things people terminology people should avoid in your opinion but let’s get back to the Oh origin of all of this the origin of Laci and how you got to this place where you are this person that speaks to so many people about these subjects in a powerful way so let’s go back to the very beginning where you from where am i from well I grew up in Portland Oregon came over to Sacramento and now in the Bay Area State on the west coast yeah when West Coast girl for sure and your parents are like an interesting combo of Awesomeness yeah that’s about that my parents are really awesome I didn’t always feel that way and I’m pretty open about that online which creates a little bit of awkwardness between us it’s a little real but yeah they are Mormon and I grew up Mormon so that has been a really played a really big role in getting me to where I’m at and your dad is Iranian yes yeah he’s from Iran and your mom is like what you would picture a Mormon to be white lady she’s a white lady daddy’s like a pretty he’s pretty white for an Iranian – okay like every we have like olivey skin my dad does a little bit but he’s pretty white looking as well which is why people don’t usually pick up that you know half my family’s from Iran how did they meet they met in college they both went to BYU which was at that time called Rick’s College and it was just a junior college and then they turned it into the big giant University right yeah so they both they were both Mormon even before they met they met through Mormon Church in the Mormon College yes yes both ended up there somehow okay and being from a Mormon family do you have lots of brothers and sisters not as many as a lot of Mormon okay I think my parents were like whoa raising kids is really hard I think we’re done so I have two siblings to see younger and younger younger sister so you’re the oldest yes I’m the oldest and okay so what was growing up like I mean what was your house like and what were you into it was Jo like I had a good you know upbringing but when I was a teenager a lot of things started to change for me and my political awakening so you know I am really close to my family we’re really tight and our to this day we kind of have like that you know we’re blood we stick together mentality but there are some kind of real cracks in that right because of our political differences so did you your political awakening how did that happen is that like because you met like hikers in Utah that’s how it works right there’s like Mormons in Utah and there’s like rock climbers they like they like have different ideas about their the world yeah religion yeah that’s true but my awakening was not in Utah it was in Sacramento because I was a teenager in Sacramento I was starting to which is a little bit different than in Utah in a lot of ways actually Oh hikers and there are some but that’s a different story yeah no it’s it’s a much more liberal place but still pretty conservative by California’s yeah it’s right so I just kind of felt like at odds with a lot of the ideas that I was being fed and just sort of felt really critical of a lot of the religious stuff that I had been brought up to believe was the truth about the world so do you remember like thinking you know I think a lot of people I think a lot of people from a religious background probably go through this where they’re just sort of like mmm I don’t know if I buy this sometimes it’s sometimes it’s you hear a different perspective sometimes it’s just it kind of just hits you do you remember like a seminal event yes there was a seminal event when I was in the church they separate you out by gender so all the women go to certain classes and all the young men go to certain classes and the classes I was taking were like about raising a family getting prepared to have kids cooking sewing this very the community was all around very traditional gender roles and I was kind of like I’ve always been a massive nerd and I wanted to be a doctor I was so set on it you know by the time when I was like nine years old I was like I want to be a gynecologist I was all about it like I was ready to do the vagina thing and then the Mormon Church sort of you know made my dreams come crashing down so as a nine-year-old you wanted to be a gynecologist yes how did the funniest well I mean have you had you been to a gynecologist oh no but I knew there are baby doctors oh you know I want it to be I didn’t say mom I want to be a gynecologist it was more like I want to be the one that delivers the babies and make sure is that make sure that girls and women are healthy right interested in women’s health stuff okay so my parents bought me like a bunch of books about it they totally encouraged me to learn about it and you know that was somebody was completely immersed in but it’s not something that’s encouraged in the church so much that was not my experience they don’t want you to go to med school and stuff they want you to be a mom I know it’s not okay with that right and so what you do but there’s a we you know there’s always more of a process than that right so yeah what was it a this isn’t right I’m not cool with this let me talk to my parents about it you know how did that that doubt begin to express itself yeah I just I started feeling really alienated going to church so I tried to stop going and that’s where the conversation started to come up right like why don’t you want to go arguing with my parents about it as a teenager and expressing feelings of basically what I was picking up on was a lot of sexism in the church and I didn’t have the words for it at that time and my parents didn’t really either so it was like a lot of fighting and clashing over figuring out why I was no longer willing and I slowly just moved away from it and tried to find a new community and that’s a big part of how I found YouTube was leaving the church because when you’re in the Mormon Church your entire life yeah revolves around it and everyone you know so if you decide this feels really bad inside for me which I did where do you go who do you talk to in it especially at what age I mean 15 14 yeah that’s what I mean there’s so much change taking place personally there is without any sort of upheaval otherwise I mean there is a only another license at this point you can’t even like drive away oh yeah it’s like the worst feeling ever when you’re a teenager you have no control you know you just want so much control there’s like this big battle with parents and it was very much the case for me plus all the political stuff on top you know so it seems like it was a it was an issue with the values right you know even in your draw my life video when you put them you have the Mormon Church up on the whiteboard you write sexist racist homophobic around that you all say that what you write was that a was it mostly that the sort of the value issue that like I don’t agree with these values was there any of the like which is all often happens like an intellectual like I also don’t believe what they believe this stuff about X Y & Z that I’m gonna have a planet or whatever and there’s lots of mischaracterization about that but there’s a lot of weird stuff that’s real so was that any part of it – yeah I think that came later for me because I started to doubt all the general stuff and then I started thinking more critically about what I was being told and opening my mind about the world and maybe what trying to seek truth right trying to figure out my own truth figure out who I am what I believe and when I started looking more into it yeah there’s a lot of weird stuff and it doesn’t make sense and also I was really into science so it was like this does not fit with the scientific view of the world and that was a big conflict – like religion or science which and I was very you know already heading away from religion so science just kind of nailed the you know the hammer and the car the nail in the coffin for me yeah you don’t want to bury the hammer or to get out if you accidentally get buried alive only bury the hammer if you’re also being buried right so did you at that time did what was the relationship with your parents and and also how much younger were the your brothers and your brother and sister at what point like during this like 14 15 16 questioning yeah it wasn’t a good at that point my relationship with my parents was not great you know that was where I think a lot of our conflicts begin because we were fighting a lot about our values our beliefs about the church about God whether or not God exists and I became very staunchly atheist when I was about 16 or 17 and like really got into that whole thing you know there’s a big atheist community online yeah that was a part of my coming-of-age I don’t really identify with that anymore but it helped me have like a place that I could feel like oh this is where I belong right place for me so without a license you’re a way to get away and to establish your own sense of self apart from the church and your immediate family was the Internet yes atheist community online mm-hmm and also YouTube okay yes how do you tube fit into that um YouTube was where a lot of people were making videos about their religious flight people talking about being alienated by their beliefs or their parents beliefs there’s a lot teenagers and stuff on there older people as well did you start making the videos then – yes so you you followed suit he said I can make one of those – I’m just not gonna watch I’d be a consumer I’m gonna be a contributor right yeah and I actually didn’t start making videos about the religion stuff I started making videos about homophobia that’s my that was maybe but homophobia in the church so I was talking about I was talking about a lot of issues I talked about today as I experienced them in the church and that’s kind of where I jumped onto the YouTube bandwagon and so that process okay so when did you start YouTube how old were you at the time I was 18 17 or 18 okay yeah and then it’s a right you’re starting and then you go off to college yes I actually went off to college when I was fifteen oh yeah I graduated really early but I did the community college things I still lived at home but yeah I was already in college of it okay so around that time so yes because let’s talk about tell us about how the you know obviously already said that at age nine you were like I want to be a gynecologist but when the sex education thing you know became an interest and also began to incorporate itself into your content yeah I think when I started becoming sexually active was when that came on my mind which was about you know 18 17 18 sex is a big part of your life as a teenager you’re having all these new feelings and these experiences and I felt very ill equipped to handle it all and so it became an interest of mine you know I just kind of learned everything that I could absorbed everything that I could about sexuality and gender and all these issues that were affecting me and I thought hey there are probably other people out there who don’t who feel the same way as I do right they don’t have the answers they don’t have anyone to talk to let’s start a community here and that’s when I sort of shifted gears and I was doing a lot of sex ed stuff on my college campus when I went to Berkeley around that time so it all kind of fit together for me right and so you made a youtube video called how to make fluffy chocolate chip muffin exclamation point yeah that was a great application my god the digging skills well it’s online that’s your in fairness the first video that at least is still public I don’t know how many you’ve private it yeah it’s about birth control the NuvaRing review you’re reviewing that yes yes and and and then you had an update going off of the NuvaRing a little bit later and then there were you know it seemed like you were kind of finding your way it became less about chocolate chip muffins and more about sex education on your channel don’t be fooled though my life is still very much about real that’s real yeah no it I think like I just was uploading something what was interesting to me I like a lot of youtubers right they just upload like random stuff and they find their way and seeing what resonates yeah with the audience and also what makes me feel excited the kind of content I want to make and that makes me feel fulfilled and proud of what I’m putting online so the Nexus was sex there we go it’s actually very fitting ya know that the sex stuff was relevant and also I I found a lot of people want a place to talk about it there wasn’t really anywhere online there’s more places now to talk about that stuff as a teenager but it really wasn’t and especially not on YouTube the only stuff that was talking about sexuality on YouTube was sexy it was like yeah right hey like here’s this vibrator come check it out I have to be 18 or older watch the video you know it wasn’t like let’s talk about the experience of figuring out sex as an 18 year old and do you feel I mean you kind of already said this early on when you said that you felt like your background in the Mormon Church really contributed to you know your perspective and what you’re doing now it almost feels like your background and sort of the philosophy of the Mormon Church is a compass an anti compass for where you want to take things it’s like yeah you know I’m gonna go in the exact opposite direction of what I saw that that perspective accomplished at first definitely there was like a lot like I said that the whole atheist thing it was definitely a rebellious thing but now I don’t feel like it’s so much just trying to not be the Mormon Church I actually have much more respect for the place of religions now and like what religion the intersections between religion and sexuality my viewpoint has matured and I think that you know a lot of people because of my past see me as like the anti that’s not the case and part of it is because I don’t talk about that part anymore how am i abused of religion a God in the world I’ve evolved that’s not what I do online anymore so kind of like in this sense like a lot of people are stuck with my 17 year old self online in a lot of ways right well it’s interesting cuz I’d say still probably the majority of the world still kind of gets their perspective on sexuality from some holy book whether that’s the Quran or the Bible the Book of Mormon right and so it’s like it’s a lot of well this has been prescribed by God and so therefore I’m going to this is what I’m gonna do so as someone who is you know like you said it’s not like some rebellious rejection at this point but it was a rejection and you don’t prescribe subscribe to that anymore so where do your guiding principles for the advice that you give where does that come from well my philosophy has become one that sexuality is a part of life it’s natural it’s healthy we need to be safe about it we need to be real about it we need to arm people with information knowledge is power you know all that good stuff and I think that the guiding philosophy is there’s nothing wrong with your body there’s nothing wrong with sexuality really what we want to do is be real about how people feel and make sure that they’re equipped to be safe so that we can minimize harm right right like in public health rooms I’m very much about harm reduction I’m not about telling you what to do what not to do but to figure out how to do whatever you’re gonna do in the safest way possible so when I’m giving advice people about relationships or sexuality or gender or whatever it’s very focused on taking care of the person and making sure that they’re safe what about when it comes to harm of the heart you know as a dad you know I’m very much concerned about the the health of my kids hearts you know and important thing to be healthy and helping them navigate you know the realities of sexuality what’s your interface with that you know you’re not your audience is mom or even their older sister I know you’re saying you’re trying to be their friend but it starts to get a little more dicey when you’re talking about the health of someone’s heart and then okay what does that mean about monogamy yes oh there’s a lot of big tricky questions but is like a human being outside of the internet and figuring out when you say of the heart though is she’s of the heart what do you what do you mean by that like no feelings or their soul emotionally in the simplest form in contrast to when you talk about safe sex and you say okay well safe sex physically and what that you’re not gonna get STD or the I’m not gonna have any emotional wanted pregnancy the emotional side of sexuality yeah I think I do address that too because I think well what we know from the research and there’s been a lot of research on this because of all the abstinence programs is we know when we aren’t people with information about the physical stuff and help them feel empowered about their bodies they do actually wait longer to do sexual stuff so I think that that’s healthy I think that kids should should wait you know a little longer a lot of them do and the best way to do that is not to say you need to stop and you know suppress all of your feelings they’re not okay this is wrong you need to wait and wag your finger but – I’m done with information and have the conversation about what it means to be ready to have sex you know what does it mean to have a relationship with someone what are the things that come up can we talk about that openly can we figure that out instead of telling people what to do it’s really the telling what to do and always with the best of intentions right I actually think that the absence movement does have some good intentions at heart they just want to protect the heart right but it’s misguided because that’s not how it’s not what teenagers respond to and that’s not how we’re actually gonna protect them it’s maybe a little counterintuitive but it doesn’t work that way both in my experience and by the data you know right it shows us that’s not how the way out there so what do you say to your audience about the emotional impacts of becoming sexually active if you’re talking to like kids who were yeah explore that yeah so a lot of the stuff I mean I talk mostly to women right and a lot of what I talk to young women about is it’s okay to say no and it’s important to have someone respect to your body and respect your boundaries and empowering them personally to know that they can say and do what they want to do and a lot of the time they’re feeling pressured to have sex if you say hey your decisions are your decisions and it’s totally valid let’s talk about what those feelings or how where you’re at with it they feel empowered to wait a little longer right and to protect themselves more I just yeah the second way you were going bad definitely and I guess my only other my curiosity was the the why behind waiting because it’s easy to talk about the mechanics of the biology of it or even the empowerment of this it’s my decision but then the impact of what if your decision as a 13 year old girl is like I want to have sex yeah you know it’s like you know how do you quantify the emotional and metaphysical impact of that mm-hmm well it’s tricky stuff and I think that you know a lot of kids because we live in such a sexually prude and simultaneously hyper sexual culture we have really a lot of extremes going on kids are left without the guy didn’t really stick guidance that they need so talking to the thirteen-year-old who wants to have sex is very complicated not just because you’re 13 but because of all of the the culture that exists around this the context of the 13 year olds life so unpacking all about stuff is really important too which is how I kind of came to more of the feminist content that I put online right so I want to empower girls as people so that their sexuality is empowered as well and they’re making decisions based on what they want and what’s right for them do you have somebody in mind when you’re you know an audience member in mind when you’re creating your content like who do you picture myself like my younger me right 15 16 17 year-old Lacey right in that time where you were kind of all the upheaval was happening yeah and I try to kind of stay really in touch with that part of myself because I think people forget as they I forget as I’m getting older you know you you lose some of that raw memory of what it feels like to be at that age and to be going through those things right so keep holding on to that and then speaking to that I think is part of a big part of what I do right and of course and one of the realities you’re making videos on YouTube I mean that you know you’re talking about these things on YouTube you also got to be a marketer right right and so that takes it interesting and interesting direction mm-hmm you know you’ve called some of the your approach Frank you might say some of your your your video titles or Frank like dirty vaginas freaky labia shaving pubes just a name a few okay great well before you get into the strategy I will say that you know obviously you’re making video videos mostly for women but when a girl makes a video called shaving pubes there’s gonna be a bunch of dudes watching that as well right so do you ever look at the analytics and think about oh this is a house in the dirt the dirty old game what is the dirty man factor has over 40% no I actually my audience is very male or female dominated okay seventy or eighty percent between 1325 because once they once they get in they’re like oh she’s not actually shaving her pubes they’re like okay you know okay got it I’m not I’m not gonna be into this ya know there’s definitely some weird stuff but just like any youtuber you just have to have tough skin and just let it kind of roll off your back it definitely bothered me a lot when I was younger the weird stuff curvy stuff I don’t really pay as much attention to it anymore and I also think that I command more respect because I’m more confident now and I think that comes through on camera I’m an adult now when I started I was not an adult Yeah right so I think that has changed the way that people comment on my videos too what is the strategy with the with the titling the strategy is I want you to feel entertained and you know there’s a little bit of taboo Ness right that’s okay I think that it pulls people and you have to meet people where they’re at with these topics that’s another guiding force for me where are people at with it not where I’m at not where doctors are at or public health officials they’re at how are kids talking about it and that’s how they’re talking about it so I want to speak the language that I know that works and would speak to me yeah in at the same time it doesn’t hurt that having a sensational title it bleeds some more views right I mean that’s where all youtubers here we’ve tried it all Ashley Capps freaky is where we haven’t used a lot we use crazy bizarre insane weird we actually use bonkers recently bonkers we literally have meetings for a good mythical morning team where we sit around and try to come up with new ways to say crazy and yeah I recently pitched bonkers one I like that and we made a video called bonkers summer camps I pitched and it’s doing well I pitched totes redic and I don’t think that that didn’t work doesn’t work no I like rockers I might have to use that yeah you can bring it back inside feel free to take long I’ll credit you for Walker’s what what would it be bonkers bonkers sex bonkers vagina with teeth okay you did talk you did recently say that in a video not recently but when your videos did clarify that there are never been teeth found in the actual vagina teeth that is true yes I didn’t know anyone was wondering that oh I was wondering oh people wonder you know about all kinds of words they’re like I’m like where are you finding this what kind of weird porn are you watching you know but but there but you did say that teeth have been found in like the uterus other parts because that’s not like joint wind that didn’t unjoin that’s just you know what it really is science what bonkers hahaha man at uterus dated small net that’s for if you can always picture the voice of the dirty when you look at your analytics and you see that like ten percent you just picture okay so let’s talk about that let’s talk about men let’s talk about feminism because that is a big part of your content and we’re gonna talk about Sam pepper just give you a heads up we’re gonna talk about sample rate my favorite topic but first let’s talk about you know how do you feel about the fact that your content does kind of invite in some senses the same type of thing that you’re trying to battle right because you know sexist dudes are going to see you in a certain way because you talk about sex frankly as a target as a target mm-hmm does that happen yeah of course have you read my comments section yeah I mean so what me said well how do you process that mmm I don’t really anymore it’s not like a part of my regular processing I kind of gotten over the fact that that just happens online but yeah I mean at first it was really upsetting to me I also found that I get that kind of that kind of feedback no matter what I upload it doesn’t matter that if it’s about sex although that probably just makes them feel like they have license didn’t give any more but the fact that I’m a woman like something like they have license the fact that I talk about my life or sexuality you know gives them license there’s a lot of aspects of what I do that make them like you said see me is it that’s a target but I’m not gonna let them you’re not gonna be the trolls you’re smart enough to not feed the troll know you’re not gonna make a video where you get upset about that behavior no although I have made videos before calling it out calling out that behavior when I was younger very badly right very learned do you learn the lesson yeah I learned the lesson but I think also the community learned the lesson too like there was a bit of an exchange I had with some youtubers and it was a it was growing pains but I think honestly it’s not a healthy way to handle it but it is one of the most difficult things to resist right when people especially when you’re younger a when people say something and you’re like that doesn’t you’re stupid that doesn’t that’s not me you’re misrepresenting me you’re mischaracterizing me you’re it’s just is so hard to not respond but they’re all they want you to do is respond yeah so they can be legitimized that’s true they want you to legitimize them but I just don’t really care like like why do I oh who are you I don’t owe you any explanation I don’t need to defend myself I Know Who I am I know what this is about the fact that you’re misrepresenting is completely different issue and I’m not going to entertain it Yeah right can you give us the complete Sam pepper story from your perspective really the complete one just like how you were you know like what your how it all happened from your perspective when people started reaching out to you and the video you decided to make just for people who may not know that whole story yet so was really awful it was like a really bad experience for me seriously because I have talked about sexual violence stuff and I speak at a lot of schools about it and so I’ve become like a place that people feel like they can talk to you about this stuff I noticed this stuff online you know a floodgate was open let me start the beginning the beginning was Sam pepper is a UK youtuber who uploads prank videos I’m using my air quotes right now prank videos where he grabs women on the street he forces his mouth on them and these videos are very uncomfortable the women are like seriously weirded out that this guy is putting a camera in their face and grabbing them and making out with them on the street and if a guy ever did that to me I was like oh my god he would’ve been punched in the face by now do not touch me but these girls are like oh my god you know they don’t they’re shocked yeah about what’s coming on and he’s making all these videos and getting all you know he’s got tons and tons of views and I become a little bit concerned once he crosses a line and he starts to grab a bunch of women’s butts with the fake hand he’s like freaking them out right so I just wrote this letter this open letter saying hey this is not an appropriate message to send out to your audience it’s not an appropriate way to treat women on the street this is harassment it’s a letter the letter so let’s let’s stop for one second and say okay the decision to write the letter what went into that for you um feeling like I had to say something I just was like what is going on and people were messaging me about it and there was a lot of upset about it and people just sort of looked to me as oh that’s her topic can you help us out right she talks about the sexuality stuff she talks about sexual violence and you chose a letter not a vlog at first yes well I chose a letter because I didn’t want it to be such a big thing I wanted to be low-key like let’s hope he sees this I just wanted him to read the letter that was like a tumblr post right yeah it’s just a tumblr post um but then all these people started youtubers started contacting me about the letter they were also very upset and I realized whoa a lot of youtubers were also feeling really awkward about this and didn’t know what to say they want to co-sign the letter and I started getting hundreds of people like can you add my name can you add my name the letter on you tumblr gets 100 thousands some notes and goes very viral it’s my most viewed I think post on tumblr so there’s a lot of community traction around it then because you know all the eyes were on this me talking about Sam pepper then I started I got a couple of emails from girls who met him and had very concerning experiences at places like VidCon and you know it was two or three girls one of them was actually in the middle of a lawsuit that she was going to press charges against him and was reaching out to me just to say hey you should know that I’m actually working on a lawsuit right now I’m thinking about pressing charges you know she’s already in the system with this you should know if there’s other people coming forward about this I would like to know that just for me as a person um you know and I realized the situation in the situation just got so much bigger Remy all the sudden yeah you became a focal point of people wanting to respond yes and after the letter you know before you took any other action mm-hmm at that point did you hear anything from Sam pepper or from you know yes Sam pepper was messaging me and she was threatening me on on Twitter and I was getting emails and tweets and it was not pretty he didn’t want me to talk about it and he was clearly trying to intimidate me a little bit and I was like uh-huh you’re not in the wrong person I’m gonna be intimidated by you you know and that just sort of gave me more like urgency to the situation if he’s trying to get me to shut up what is going on you know like what is the situation that I’ve accidentally stumbled into um and you and you were open about the fact that he was threatening you yeah you yeah because I think people should should know how he’s behaving how he’s responding because I think it’s really telling ya the way they he responded umm and concerning and I think that people you know you talk about it people think I’m I’m trying to like do something for myself like people try to make it like I was trying to get attention like what people don’t know is I’m like the least I don’t want attention about this kind of stuff like this is terrible complicated messy stuff I don’t want to be you know mixed up in that you hadn’t built your career on calling out individuals no policing other people no in your context not my style I prefer to talk about the issue not the person but in this case this person is a real predator in the community and I was worried about him going to conferences and I was you know some of the things that have been disclosed to me details of the lawsuits you know it’s terrifying so what and so then there was the exchange which he was making public tweets and then so you were making public the the exchange you were having with him yes and then what and then there was some a lot of stuff working with a few people behind the scenes there was a ton of press – oh yeah that was a big stressor – because then all of a sudden BBC wants to talk about this and all these big major media outlets and I oh my god I thought I was going to collapse and like or like explode one or the other right because I was also on tour well this is going on I’m speaking at a new university everyday about tons of events might schedules super packed and I got this enormous mess on my hands online and I’m all alone you know and you know implosion and you kind of you really sense that when you make your vogs and pepper exposed you’re sitting on the bed in the hotel room you look like you have you know you’re just you’re so not a willing participant in this it’s like I am so reluctantly involved in this and speaking and you can sense it in what you’re saying yeah I mean it was a lot of stress for me and I didn’t want to do the wrong thing I wanted to make sure I was handling this right I felt like I had a lot of eyes on me I did have a lot of eyes on me I didn’t want to get myself in legal trouble I didn’t want to make false accusations I didn’t want any bad thing to happen right I want it like justice to be served and that’s it I need to figure out the best way that I could facilitate that because at this point everyone was like well Lacey will handle it and in some ways I’m a little bit upset that more people didn’t try to help me out like a lot of people just preferred to watch yeah I’m not but maybe they feel felt as helpless as I did you know they’re like I don’t know what to do and I didn’t know what to do either you know it’s just a big mess so and so when he said I was alone you you experienced support but it was like okay yeah I’m gonna I’m gonna back you up with what you did but and like I’ll add my name to the list or things like that but what were you alone did you find any help if that was a lawyer or anybody you know like what kind of help did you find were there any resources and I think as a community is there a you know is there feedback for the community at large because I think that’s that’s important to hear is that you know you there was a lot of support externally but then internally as you were navigating this it sounds like maybe people didn’t know how to help yeah but how could how could they I think that people could have been more vocal and could have maybe it would have been nice to have someone reach out and be like hey do you need like help do you need an ear do you what can I do need some support in this um that would have been helpful for me because I was you know completely alone in and trying to figure out some resources I contacted friends of mine you know in this in the sexual violence space I’m very well-connected and I used to be a counselor for the the state for California State so I am connected to state resources in California so that la case was something that I felt more equipped to handle but there was another one in Buffalo and another one in the UK and those situations helping them wasn’t sure how to do it handling it publicly wasn’t sure how to do it you know wasn’t sure like what the right how do I do this this is really bad guys like do I just right so now when you made the video yeah like what what what was the decision to make the video at that point and then how did that go the decision to make the video was needing these conferences to kick him out that was a big part of it and needing people to know that this is a high risk situation and people need to have their eyes on this I need to pay attention to what’s going on over here we don’t we can’t just sweep this under the rug it’s like a real serious issue that’s happening at these conventions um and I felt like if I don’t say it who is no one right no one was gonna say anything um and people did a few people said stuff after I did but it was still a very few people who really publicly talked about this issue and I think was a lot of people who I would consider a part of the more feminist community of LGBT community you were kind of expecting to speak up yeah yeah not like people who have more overlap with these actual audiences right with with Sam peppers audience like that is a different community and I wanted more people who are in that community yeah to speak up and say hey we don’t stand for this this is not okay this is not an OK way to interact interact with your fans and we need to have higher standards for ourselves and have more awareness of what kind of content we’re posting online what kind of message we’re sending to people what are we building our channels off of harassing women is that gonna be your channel theme right like is that acceptable no it’s not acceptable and I feel like nobody wants to say that nobody wants to talk about that and especially not people who are more you know further away from my community right and so the the aftermath of you kind of bringing these things to light you know the accusations and and these things it I mean it pretty this pretty much did him in I mean really you know he got dropped by his Network he kind of went away from YouTube for a good while he was blacklisted from VidCon as an example maybe playlists and other conferences but you made a follow a video video where you kind of explained that you felt like appropriate action had not really been taking thing and things had not gone far enough that’s right I think he should be in jail I absolutely do he should not be running around in the world and you know I am aware I don’t I can’t follow him because it’s really upsetting to me but like my friends kind of keep an eye on him and let me know and he’s still doing some shady stuff you know I know he’s still doing and I don’t I feel helpless I don’t know what I don’t know so for me I’ve just had to see like he’s still making youtube videos um I don’t know if he’s still making YouTube videos some of the situations that I’ve heard about have happened over snapchat cuz he uses snapchat okay so um yeah there’s still there’s very much unrest in my soul about this situation yeah in that video was the earliest of that unrest but it’s still there and it’s not just about Sam pepper either it’s about you know feeling like Oh YouTube is such a utopia in a lot of ways but here’s this like dark part that we have to confront yeah and no one wants to and it’s really uncomfortable and no one knows how I’m feeling like I’m the only person it’s like I don’t feel equipped if I don’t feel equipped who does well yeah I could say from from my perspective just to you know encourage you somewhat you may feel like you know justice hasn’t been served specifically with him but I would say that you impacted the culture of YouTube prank videos in a significant way I said I’m not I’m not saying that it stopped yeah but I’m saying that I feel like there are a lot of people out there who may have supported or liked a video but now they think about is someone being taken advantage of what is the motivation behind this yeah I mean it made me I mean obviously that that particular video where he’s grabbing the butts was theirs he’s crossed so many lines that it’s you every most people are like okay this is unacceptable but I think there’s so many other videos that got close to that line approached that line that we’re really already breaking in a line and I think you know it makes other people be more sensitive to it yes I so I think you know it’s not like the battle isn’t over by any means but you contributed it you threw a large bomb out there that was effective thank you I that is very nice to hear um because I often feel defeated like you know it hasn’t changed and you know when you’re an activist it’s easy to just kind of focus on what’s wrong instead of what’s right like you know focusing on wow there’s still so much on there like what do I do instead of acknowledging what you just said right yeah so we have to take what we can get yeah and I think the another thing we want to talk about quickly is you know there’s the overt stuff the obvious taking advantage of women in the way that Sam did in his videos and apparently in private too but then there’s the more subtle sexism right and you got a couple of guys like mid-30s maybe even older than that now growing up in North Carolina and surrounded by tobacco fields mm-hmm there’s you know there’s no doubt that we say inadvertently saying let’s leave tobacco out of this why you gotta complicate it with tobacco because that’s that’s just miss them oh crap okay all right forget the tobacco just trying to set us yeah so what are they inadvertently or maybe you know I don’t know maybe it’s not inadvertent what are the sexist things that you hear being said see being done that it’s just like okay you guys should know about this stop saying this stop doing this online like on YouTube or in my effort in either whatever come to my things that we need to stop saying that maybe not you’ve heard us say it yeah like that yeah I think for me as a woman one of them I a recurring experience of sex sexism it’s constantly being reduced to how I look and I think that we all do this to each other to some extent but I think women kind of get a really raw the raw end of the deal on this and also being on camera all the time you know feeling like everyone’s very judgy of women and and people don’t listen to what I’m saying and it’s been such a battle to be like did you hear the words that just came out of my mouth like I just said them are you hello are you there and I don’t think that that’s necessarily like Oh on YouTube thing that’s just my interactions in life but on YouTube I think that people need to be aware of representing how we’re representing women and kind of making sure that it we’re leveling the playing field this is a new media platform that’s amazing and exciting and a lot of you know we have to be careful or the the patterns and the trends and the problems that are in traditional media will come in and affect this platform like we have this great opportunity we have to be aware though so that we can make sure that you know girls and people of color and the LGBT community are all having an equal opportunity on this platform as well and that’s kind of the stuff that I do at VidCon is what a lot of working on making sure that the issues that those communities are facing are being addressed so that we can all have fun on on YouTube do you feel like you’re gonna have to step up and call more people on the carpet like it sounds like it’s the last thing that you want to do from just a personal quality of life standpoint to go through that again but is there uh is there a need for that or for you to start calling more more instances out like I mean that you’ve got the video about sexism in horror movies mm-hmm but it’s not like you’re looking at the latest movie that just came out and you’re like picking apart the Fast and the Furious 7 mm-hmm have you thought about something like that in in general I do the stuff I do with MTV my MTV braless stuff that is more along those lines okay it’s more along the looking at like current pop culture and current events and stuff and people and looking at the conversations that are happening and dissecting that more but I don’t like as it’s like my personality I don’t like conflict and I don’t like you know the prote I struggle with how to approach calling someone out as you say right because I don’t I don’t want to like complicate it and make it a personal vendetta it’s it’s because it’s not about the person it’s about a behavior or something but it gets personal something sense how does the MTV show work what’s the format they’re having not seen it yeah it’s just like a feminist pop culture analysis my analysis of stuff is what do you shoot it you go into a studio in LA this is not like it’s in Oakland the studios in Oakland yeah the sets in Oakland and we have a crew there and we shoot every week it’s like we do seasons so there’s on and off seasons we’re in the third season right now and it’s just you know we’re kind of looking at stuff that’s relevant to the MTV audience and adding a little bit of an academic flare and adding a little bit of social commentary and kind of giving people new ways to look at different situations that are happening like we did some stuff about Mad Max and you know about all kinds of movies Magic Mike and Beyonce Nicki Minaj and we’re talking about all these things through the feminist lens through an understanding of you know gender and what’s the filter there how do you apply that filter to your music videos your music not your you know your your run-of-the-mill music video whether it be a Nicki Minaj or something where it’s I mean it then the era of 90s rap music videos if it’s changed a little bit but not enough I would imagine in your view yeah the objectification of women and music videos yeah well of course when we talk about that a lot I’m braless and like all the different angles of it tell people really understand what it looks like to help them understand how to identify it and why it’s a problem and what the difference is – with objectification stop what the difference is between objectifying someone and just being sexual because sometimes people are like oh we’re not allowed to be sexual anymore women can’t be sexy I’m not allowed to look at their bodies are you delineate well the difference is who’s the consumer and who is you know who’s who’s got the power like Nicki Minaj we’ve talked about her videos is it objectifying do people objectify her absolutely but she is the one that is in control of it you know she is the one that is choosing it’s her sexuality she’s expressing her sexuality and it’s like well what a it’s not that simple right no it’s not that simple but that’s a big part of it is empowering women to be sexual and identifying situations where women are being told they have to be sexual in order to make money or whatever and that’s where it gets complicated right mm-hmm it is it is complicated right because you’ve got okay well maybe a woman is making the choice but maybe she’s being influenced by the culture yeah oh and what heard the expectations of her body and how she should present her body which aren’t necessarily expectations that she set yes you know what I mean yes absolutely and so it’s that context that that type of context for a lot of things that are going on in the world and in the media that we’re looking at it’s not like making this is bad this is good this is right this is wrong that’s not my approach my approach is let’s take a look at all the angles here and kind of figure out the best most just most informed way to digest these situations something yeah so do you like Nicki Minaj I do I think she’s done like some weird stuff like the Nazi video like what was that I don’t know what is the will overlook that maybe she didn’t know it maybe yeah I mean people are complex they’re complicated they’re not just good people or bad people people do complicated things right well thanks for allowing us to explore the complexities of everything that is your life this podcast yeah of course no thank you for inviting me I feel like this is a little bit of a therapy session on this we should’ve brought the couch oh yeah is the Kleenex box next time we’ll do that well what so what’s the conclusion if it felt like therapy for you I think we sent her a bill I think all right we’ll look for that there you have it our ear biscuit with Laci green let her know what you thought about the conversation you can do that on the Twitter her handle is Go Green 18 Go Green 18 make sure you use hashtag ear biscuits yeah we love it when you give feedback also when you leave a review for us and this podcast on iTunes or comment along with us on soundcloud sex education I feel like I was educated yeah I learned some stuff about 37 year old man and and you know it was challenging at the end there so we don’t need to rehash that but I will just say that I appreciated what Lacey had to say and that gave us a lot to think about as members of this community and how we should stand up when someone’s doing the right thing and help them and support him in that and she’s also just you know she is one of the only people focusing on this kind of content and she’s not you know despite the fact that she titles her videos in a certain way to give you she’s actually doing it also because it is she wants to be able to have a frank unapologetic conversation about sex because she thinks that that’s important for people to know about it in a in a frank way which I think makes me think about our experience just growing up and how I mean I there was no YouTube there was no Laci green so how did you at first hear about sex I mean how did you well what was the world how was it opened up to you soon my mom she worked for the health department that’s convenient back in Harnick County and it turns out that in the lobby of her workplace they have all types of sex education pamphlets oh yeah pamphlets are very helpful one of with stick figures oh gosh and one of one of which she decided to give to me and she said all right this is gonna teach you some things you need to know as as a boy who’s you know starting to go through puberty and figures figuring things out yeah there’s how old were you I don’t remember that but when I got the pamphlet maybe I don’t know I might have been 12 mm-hmm I went I was like okay she was like if you have any questions ask me but she didn’t like read it to me like a bedtime story right she gave it to me and I went into my room and then I went into my closet okay close the door to my room closed the door to my closet sat in the closet in the dark with a flashlight and read this pamphlet you were that scared of it I was were you scared up she but the funny thing is is you took all the steps that someone who’s trying to hide something from their mom takes but your mom had given you the shampoo and you didn’t have anybody else in the house who are you hiding from yeah I didn’t have any siblings I just felt like it was the type of thing you want to be in like a secret like secret place to like read but I think that that is indicative or it’s very telling of you know up to that point what you thought about it you’re right this is this is like secret information that you should you don’t want to talk about openly and there’s it’s it could be shameful I don’t know it’s I don’t know exactly what I was thinking but I felt that my hide yeah which I think kind of speaks to why lacy has felt the need to talk about things in the way that she does I mean because you know I also think it’s generational because I think that we’re going to be a lot more apt to talk about sex with our kids so that’ll make sure that they’re educated more so than we were because my parents didn’t work at a health department and they didn’t there were no pamphlets and no stick figures there was just figuring it out through you know conversations with friends inference yeah right which I don’t necessarily think it’s the most healthy way to do to learn about it it’s never like a definitive birds and bees conversation with your parents no no no pamphlet no pamphlet a night you know and I don’t I mean honestly I don’t really hold it against him because I don’t I don’t think many people I think you actually were probably in the minority at the time in the place where we were with parents that were having open frank conversations about sex with her kids I’ve I went it’s cuz she had the pamphlet she didn’t even have a conversation she gave you a pamphlet I mean let’s just be honest I mean but that’s better than the raffle –it I also went to visit my dad one weekend around the same time and I learned a lot by watching Lethal Weapon – Wow yeah well there’s a there’s a scene where you can learn a lot right I learned at least one from one scene there yeah and that’s probably not the most healthy way to learn well it it sinks in pretty quickly it’s still there it still stinks in it instead yeah okay I didn’t think I should be I’ve been watching that at that age so yeah that was probably a healthy I didn’t tell anybody instinct but you didn’t go in a closet and watch it because there was nothing like there was no small like VCR yeah you couldn’t get like a little iPod in there that didn’t exist no it did you couldn’t get a whole cabinet with a TV inside of it inside a closet – then watch Lethal Weapon 3 to be tooken – well he lived in a mobile home I remember okay we’ll bring another educational episode of your biscuits at your ears next week and it probably won’t relate to sex because we got a lot of that this week yeah we did but maybe hey I don’t know [Music] [Music]