Welcome to Ear Biscuits, the podcast where two lifelong friends talk about life for a long time. I’m Rhett. And I’m Link. This week at the round table of dim lighting, we’re giving the floor to my co-host, Rhett McLaughlin. Four years ago was a pivotal moment in not only the life of this podcast, but also the public life of my friend Rhett McLaughlin, because four years ago is when he first shared publicly about his spiritual journey along the path of deconstruction. Is this NPR enough for you? Well, the interesting thing is, And now, It doesn’t sound a lot like NPR, it actually sounds like maybe more fittingly like a podcast that might be done by like the 700 club. Yeah, okay. You’re welcome. Which I appreciate. And now, in following with the tradition of every anniversary of that initial podcast, he is here to give us another update on where he is at spiritually. Thank you, Jim. I just feel like I couldn’t call you by your actual name. Okay, I can be Jim. Link. I can be Jim, the active listener today. You be Jimmy? Let’s get into it, man. That’s my dad’s name, Jimmy. I know you’ve been pulling together lots of, I made you read through this outline last night. I didn’t read through it, because I want to be surprised. Oh, really? I skimmed it. Okay. I applied your speed reading techniques, which as many have pointed out, was just skimming. But let’s not get into that. Oh, let’s focus. Okay. Okay, all right. Let’s focus. Yeah, give me a second to think about that. Okay, so yes, every year when this time approaches, given the fact that this podcast is not primarily or even Minority Mostly about spiritual things, we have this tradition of talking about these things. And every year, as the date approaches, I think to myself: we’re gonna do it again? We’re gonna do it again? Do you have anything to say? I think you do. I have something in my mouth, like a chia seed from a smoothie. Well, I’m really interested in where you’re at, because this is a good occasion for me to hear it kinda like all put into one, like one spot. So, I’m all ears. Especially given the fact that since last year, a book, at least one book has been published, that is about the topic of spiritual deconstruction from an author that is in the church. I didn’t read the chapter, but I know that the chapter was devoted to your story, completely. Yeah. It’s a chapter about you. Yeah, I’m honored and I’m gonna be talking about that. Okay. Yeah, well, when this time comes around, I always start thinking, do I have anything to say? And then once I start thinking and writing down some notes, I’m like, oh, I have a lot to say. I always got a lot to say. I almost hate myself for it, but I got a lot to say and I’m gonna say it. Thank you for being here. I am using notes as I always do when I talk about these things, because as has been shown, sometimes the things I say get put into books. And so, I like to make sure that I say the things in the way that I want to say them. A book. Well, no Link. I think this marks, this may be the third book about deconstruction that, Okay. One or both of us There you go. Is mentioned in, so we’re on a streak. And I think there’s another one that’s actually coming out really soon, that I haven’t read yet, that I’m hoping we’re in. And we’ll maybe talk about that next year. So, I’m gonna talk about, I’m gonna recap my story, a very like Cliff’s Notes version of the deconstruction story. ‘Cause I find what I often do, is I’m talking about it. I’m like, if you want to hear the whole story, go to listen to this long podcast from four years ago. And I don’t want you to have to do that, if you don’t wanna do that. If this is the only thing that you’ve ever listened to of us talking about this, I’d like this to be able to stand alone because I wanna respect your time. I’m also gonna talk about some people who have been really helpful, some writers who have been really helpful in helping me understand my spiritual journey. I’m gonna tell my favorite Bible story, so pull up a chair, get out your felt board. Oh! I’m going to tell my favorite Bible story, and then I will be talking about this. Do the kids get candy afterward? You can get some candy. I’m not the kid. I wasn’t referring to me. Okay, if you’re a kid and you’re listening, which I don’t know if I would recommend, yes, you can. You’re gonna have to get yourself some candy at the end as a reward, because I don’t have the ability to get it to you. And then I’ll be talking about this book, and I’ll try to tie it all together. So Cliff’s Notes version of my deconstruction, slash, deconversion story. Grew up in an Evangelical Christian home, Evangelical, according to myself. Meaning that the deserved punishment for my sins, of which everybody was guilty, was hell. To receive salvation from that punishment, you gotta repent and profess faith in Jesus Christ to forgive you, at which point you enter a relationship with God and you’re born again. That’s how some people would refer to it, being born again. Part of that is the Bible is without error, and it is the authoritative revelation of God. And it is my duty, every Christian’s duty, to spread the good news; AKA, the gospel. That’s sort of a general description of like, my worldview. So this was as, Born and raised in that. As you might remember, pretty important. Yeah. The most important aspect of my life, right? It was the thing that mattered the most. And, I was born in 1977. I am 46 years old. And what that means, is that I never really questioned that for the first 20 years of my life, right? I think it’s hard for people who maybe are under 35 to relate to the fact that like, you know, before the internet, if you grew up before the internet, this is what you were taught, this is what most people in your community believed. You didn’t really know anybody that thought differently. Maybe they thought slightly differently about things, but there was really no impetus to question any of the core ideas of Christianity. Like, why? Why would you, right? But of course, the internet, that damned internet came along when I was, pretty much when I was in college, is when I started, Yeah. Really looking at it. And at that point, I started to find lots of people who disagreed with what I believed, had a lot of things to say about the things that I believed, right? And so for the first time, I kind of started out on this quest of trying to confirm that I believed in the right thing. Because again, this wasn’t just some like hobby. This was everything, right? This was not just the most important thing, it was essentially the only thing that ultimately mattered. Every single other aspect of my life was organized under this first proposition, which was all those things that I just stated. The Bible’s authoritative. I’m in a relationship with Jesus. And so, I started reading. There’s, I mean, there’s a lot of resources and there’s many more resources now, but there were a lot of resources at the time if you wanted to confirm what you believed as a Christian. There were a lot of Christian apologists, that means a defender of the faith, who could provide answers to a lot of the questions that I had. So, I started into that process in my twenties. The problem is, is that when I started looking at a lot of these answers to the questions that I had, you end up just sort of incidentally getting exposed to a lot of arguments against the things that you believe, right? Because maybe you’re reading about it and you’re introduced to a whole new idea, or your research it a little bit deeper and you find, oh, there’s an answer to the answer, to the answer to the answer, right? Oh, there’s people debating these things. So that was about a 10 year period of still being very, you know, a very strong Christian, still very, it was still the most important thing, but I would say by my thirties, the amount of good arguments causing me to question what I believed had reached a bit of a critical mass. I’d seen a lot of different things causing me to doubt. And so I went from believing that I was right, to doubting that I was right, to believing that I was wrong. That was a, Long period of time. Long period of time. And then once I believed I was wrong, I stopped calling myself a Christian. Now, this is a vast oversimplification of the process. There is a really long podcast where I talk about all the details, or a lot of them, but it was a very drawn out process. It was very painful. You were there the whole time, I was talking with you about it. Definitely. I was talking to my wife about it, she was crying on a regular basis. And, it was very disorienting. It was not easy. It was, I would say, probably the hardest thing that I’ve ever done, wholesale. You know, when you take it all into account. Where did I end up landing? Well first of all, I like to think that I’m still landing, right? This is a long, drawn out landing that may never fully, I may never fully plant my feet. But my goal continues to be, to be in the place that is the most honest and truthful, based on the available information that I have. So right now, I believe that the Bible and Christianity is a belief system. That they are a product of people, rather than a product of God. I’m not an atheist. Kind of went through a little bit of like a angry, you might call it an angry atheist phase, which is very common for people who are coming out of the faith, but I never really got all the way to atheism. And the reason I don’t call myself an atheist is because I’m personally compelled to believe that there’s something else going on beyond what I can see and understand. I don’t believe this because I have evidence for it, I believe it because I want to believe it. I believe it because I want it to be true. I kinda want to live in a world where there’s some magic, right? Okay. Now, from a philosophical standpoint, I do think that there are some really interesting evidences or arguments that compel me to believe that there’s some intention to the universe. But again, I just don’t think I can, I can’t convince you of it. And I’m not trying to. But my spiritual life, very important to me, really vital to me, but I’m not convinced that I can come to any confident conclusions about spiritual matters. At least not in the same way you can come to confident conclusions about like, scientific things or whatever, right? It feels like a different category. So whatever spiritual truth there may be is probably not an accumulation of facts. It really can’t be defended. I can’t convince somebody of it, and I probably shouldn’t try to. So this, to me, is the most honest and truthful position that I can have at the moment. Now, I could be wrong. I am wrong. 100%, I know that I’m wrong, at least in some places, I don’t know where I’m wrong. You’re 100% certain that you’re wrong some percentage. Exactly. Okay. I am definitely wrong about this, to some degree. Maybe completely. And I’m not so sure being right, being wrong, I don’t know if that’s what it’s about anyway, I’m just telling you that this is my POV. Like, if you go visit a national park and you’re walking on a trail and you pass somebody and they say, oh, they start telling you things like, maybe you got a question and they’re like, well, about two miles up, blah, blah. Yeah? It’s just a dude in the park. Right. I mean, maybe he’s right, maybe he’s wrong, but you’re “You’re almost there. Keep going!” Really? Right, right, but you’re like, what is, What’s your almost? That’s a perfect analogy. Because, what is almost to you? It’s just a dude in a park. That’s what I am, I’m a dude in a park. Who wants to give you hope because he liked what he’s coming back from. Well, I’m not even saying that. Again, I get into this thing where it’s just like, why do we talk about this? And I talk about it ’cause I think about it a lot. It’s very important to me. This is our podcast, we can talk about whatever the hell we want to talk about. But also, I do find that there’s a lot of people who are like, thank you for talking about this. You know, going through something similar, thinking about similar things. I like to hear another perspective. Well, spoiler alert, next week I’ll be sharing my perspective and I will be giving all of the answers. Hmm! With 100% certainty, so, Okay, good. If you just want, you know, if you just wanna wait a week for that, I’m here for you if you just want answers. It’ll be quick. Hey, that’s a good teaser. Yeah. I like that. But for now, yeah, it’s like you’re at this place where these are your beliefs that you’ve just described, and you’re still very interested in it, because an application could be, this is my conclusion, therefore I’m onto the next thing. Like, I’m kind of into mammalian delivery of children. I am also into to that. Of children? I just thought Of babies. Okay. You like mammal babies. Anyway! Zoo babies, one of my favorite things. Yeah. Read a book about zoo babies. So you are, so you still think about this a lot. This is a All the time. Hobby? Yeah. This is a fascination. My wife, my wonderful, beautiful wife, her name is Jessie. She comes downstairs into the garage, we work out together pretty regularly. And if I get down there before her, I’m playing a podcast or a YouTube video, and I don’t play music when I work out. Such a weirdo. And like, I’m always listening to people talk about this stuff, from every perspective. I listen to a lot of just pastors talking about things. I don’t just listen to people who confirm the things that I think, I listen to all. I love people talking about this stuff. And Creflo? I know, Creflo Dollar, he’s my favorite. You know, I don’t really get into Creflo, I get into the people who are talking about it a little bit from a philosophical standpoint. But she’s like, what is wrong with you? And I’m like, I don’t know! I’m just interested in this. It is a hobby of mine. So where are you taking this right now? Okay. So one of the things that I noticed after I left the Christian faith, there was something that remained. There was this sort of core of who I am that remained, and at that core was a desire to live a meaningful life, to have purpose, to pursue truth, to love my wife, even though she makes fun of me for the things that I listen to; to love my kids, to love my friends. Yeah. To be a good boss, you know, the same kind of stuff that I wanted to be true about my life and that I was interested in, when I called myself a Christian. And there was something else that remained: this desire to connect with something beyond me, beyond myself, beyond my understanding. Something that you might roughly call spirituality. I don’t know if it was last year or the year before, but I talked about Richard Holloway, former bishop of Edinburgh in the Episcopal Church, who’s written a bunch of books. I love the way he talks about faith. And I talked about his book, “Stories We Tell Ourselves.” And really connected with me and the way that I think about spiritual things. But this year I read his memoir, “Leaving Alexandria, A Memoir of Faith and Doubt.” And I found a couple of passages that I think illustrate this idea that I’m talking about, of what I discovered about myself. So he says, and I will not attempt to do this in a Scottish accent. Don’t. ‘Cause I would fail. “I did not know the word at the time or the idea that lay behind it, but I was experiencing latency; the sense of something hidden behind what is seen. How can you find words for what is beyond sound, make visible what vanishes when seen? I was looking for something beyond myself, something out there that would take me out of in here, the life that was going on in my head. I was looking for transcendence. The beyond that is sometimes encountered in the midst of things, usually when we are not looking for it. This is the stab of awareness that causes us to turn on our heels, to catch the shadow that is behind us. It is the sense of a presence beyond any knowing that we reach out towards. We’re missing something, either because it is not there, or because we have not yet found it.” He goes on to say, “Yet there is also the sense of something just out of reach, something unseen that listens from that invisible listener, a colossal demand has exerted itself upon some men and women who then give themselves utterly away to it. Jesus called it ‘Father’ and offered himself to it without condition. Since his death on its behalf, countless others have followed his example. Always a minority, they provoke discomfort even among believers, because most believers acquire only a mild version of faith and are made anxious by those who catch it badly.” When I read this, I was like, this! Yes, I’m one of those! I caught it badly. This is why I listen to it when I work out. Okay? It does make people uncomfortable, I’ve noticed that, you know? I remember being a kid in a Christian community and having friends who called themselves Christians, who went to church, but it kind of didn’t seem like it was that important. Yeah. And I was always like, what? How is this not the most important thing to you? Like, if this is true, if God is real, if you can have a relationship with God through Jesus, if you can have the spirit of God inside your heart, directing you, guiding you; if what you’re doing now is impacting your eternity, if you could share this message with somebody and they could also be in eternity, in Heaven versus Hell, isn’t this the, this is the shit! This is the most important thing. What is wrong with you, that you don’t get this? I remember thinking that about a lot of people that knew. Meanwhile, we were starting Christian bands and getting involved in Campus Crusade, going on mission trips, becoming full-time Christian missionaries, because it was important. Right. Why would you not give your life to this? Why would you not give everything to this? And one of the things that I’ve noticed about myself is that this preoccupation with God, this deep desire to know God, this curiosity about God, is ironically what unraveled my faith in God. Hmm. Does that make sense? Yeah. It’s like if you believe in Bigfoot, and I’m not saying that, Here we go. And listen, I’m not saying that believing in God and believing in Bigfoot are on the, there’s a lot of atheists who would say that. I believe in God. So, okay, I don’t think that these are all on the same level. This is an analogy. You don’t believe in Bigfoot. I do not believe in Bigfoot. So you should say that too. If somebody really believes in Bigfoot, and they believe in Bigfoot so much so that they become a Bigfoot hunter, they have a television show, they’ve written a few books, they know everything there is to know about Bigfoot, they’re always out there looking for Bigfoot. They are in the best position to come to the conclusion that Bigfoot does not exist. Right. Right? Yeah. And so, I’m not saying that I don’t believe that God exists, but I’ll be talking specifically about what actually happened to me in my deconstruction. It is harder to do that when you have a Bigfoot show, though. I will point that out. Exactly. That’s the thing. You know, it’s just like if you’re a pastor and you’re beginning to doubt, it’s very difficult to, that’s your job, being a pastor. If you’re a Bigfoot hunter and you know Bigfoot’s not real, but that cheque keeps rolling in every time TLC calls up, I don’t know what channel it’s on anymore. Multiple, probably. Oh yeah. It’s hard to let go of that. But if you go out there enough and you never see Bigfoot, eventually you might come to some suspicions about whether or not Bigfoot exists. I think that I was especially susceptible to the type of deconstruction and deconversion that I went through, because of the particular type of Christianity that I subscribed to; because of American Evangelical Christianity. And I would say, you know, more specifically non-denominational, reformed-ish, reformed Baptist-ish Christianity, we had a very clear picture of God; a pretty detailed picture of God. We had books called, “Systematic Theology.” We had books called, “Knowing God.” You know, we had a picture of God, a detailed picture of God that we kind of sold to each other. And now I get to tell my favorite Bible story. Okay. You’ll probably remember this one, but you’ve probably forgotten some of the details. And it is a wild ride. Ear Biscuits is supported by Rosetta Stone. 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I definitely feel that. I have a mirrored experience with me and Christie. But a common misconception about relationships is that they have to be easy to be, quote, right. But sometimes the best ones happen when both people put in the work to make them great. Therapy can be a place to work through the challenges you face in all of your relationships, whether with friends, work, your significant other, or anybody. We are huge advocates of therapy. So if you’re thinking of getting on the therapy train, give Better Help a try. It’s entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and you can switch therapists at any time for no additional charge. Become your own soulmate, whether you’re looking for one or not. Visit betterhelp.com/ear today to get 10% off your first month. That’s betterhelp, H-E-L-P, .com/ear. I love this story. It is the story of Moses and the golden calf. Okay. Okay? So the Old Testament in general, I just love it because these stories are so wild, man. But this takes place in the Book of Exodus, right? So we’re following the story of the Israelites getting out of Egypt after there’s a series of things that happened to Pharaoh and the Egyptians and God’s doing all this stuff in Egypt. Eventually the people get out, they go through the Red Sea that God parts, and then God collapses the sea on the Egyptian army. And anyway, Moses and the Israelites get out into the desert and they’re wandering around the desert, wandering around the desert 40 years. And God does some really interesting things during this period of time. He starts to talk to Moses directly and his chief method is by inhabiting a cloud on top of a mountain, and then calling Moses into the cloud and then telling him things. You know, he’ll call him up there, he gives him basically rules. The God in the cloud gives him a bunch of rules. The ones that you’ve heard of, yes, like the 10 Commandments, they’re in there. You know, don’t kill, don’t steal. But then there’s some very specific ones like if you beat your slave and they die, you must be punished. But if you beat ’em and they survive for a day or two, it’s cool because they’re your property. But if you knock out their tooth, you gotta let ’em go free. Really? Yeah. This one’s better though. If a bull gores somebody to death, the bull must be killed but not eaten. The owner will not be punished, unless this bull is known as a troublemaker. If everybody knew that your bull was a little bit of a hmm, up to some bullshit on a regular basis, Uh-huh? then we’re gonna kill both the bull and you. Oh wow. If that bull gets out and does some damage. That kind of makes sense. It kind of makes sense. I think I’m for that. This not Leviticus Law, this is just, This is Exodus. This is just, okay. These are the things that God said. I mean, there’s lots of rules in the Torah, you know, those first five books. But, Okay. This is the stuff that God said during the, you know, when they were in the wilderness. Okay, that’s just a little setup for how God communicated and the kinds of things that God said. But then there was this particular time where God calls Moses up to the cloud and he spends 40 days. And he goes well beyond giving him rules, he gives him very specific instructions on exactly how to build the house, the tabernacle that God wants to be inside. And if you think that you have heard very detailed, difficult to understand Ikea instructions, this is like so many levels deeper than that. This is 40 days of instructions on exactly how to make the tabernacle that God wanted to be in. Like, the materials that it needed to be in what the furniture on the inside, like what the table needed to look like, the dimensions of everything, the lamp and the lamp stand, the ark of the covenant, all this stuff. And then what to wear when you come into the tabernacle, who can come in the tabernacle, what they have to do when they come into my presence, the sacrifices, but not just what they need to sacrifice, but how they need to sacrifice and what they need to do with the organs and the specific organs. And you gotta put some blood on different parts of your body when you come in. Very, very detailed instructions. And in the process, he gives him two stone tablets. You’ve seen it, Charlton Heston in “The 10 Commandments.” He gives Moses, played by Charlton Heston, he gives him two stone tablets; presumably with the 10 commandments on them, although scholars are not quite in agreement that that’s exactly what was on the. We’ve always been told it’s the 10 Commandments and it’s like, well, it’s not exactly that clear, but probably. Meanwhile, at the bottom of the mountain, Moses has left his brother A-A-Ron in charge and the people are like, Hey Aaron, we, They’re getting a-antsy. Yeah, yeah. We’re like, we don’t know what happened to this dude Moses. Like, yeah, he lead us this far, but we’re pretty sure he is not coming back. It’s been quite some time, so could you like make us a god to worship or something? And A-A-Ron is like, bring me all your gold. They bring him their gold jewelry, he melts it down, he makes a little cow and then he says, here’s your God who brought you out of Egypt. Now, it’s always surprised me, but this was pretty cool and convincing to the people. They were like, yeah, cool, let’s start making sacrifices to this golden calf. This is our God. And they started doing rituals and dancing. Back at the top of the mountain, God is like, Moses, your people just made a little golden cow and they’re worshiping it. I am very pissed off about this and I am going to kill them all. And Moses is like, hold up God. It would be a little bit crazy if you, like, you took all this time to bring us out of Egypt. You’ve done all this stuff for us. And now if you just kill us all, what’s the story there, bro? You know, that’s not a good story. Plus, you kind of promised our ancestors that you would build a great nation out of their descendants and that would sort of not be doing that. And God was like, ah, I see your point. So he’s like, By the way, I’m getting a little nervous at this point that you’re becoming a pastor. Like, what is happening here? I missed my calling, man. Go ahead. I would’ve loved to have been one. All the cool clothes. Go ahead. So Moses takes his two tablets, he goes down the mountain, and when he gets down to the bottom of the mountain he sees the people all dancing around the Golden Cow. He’s like, guys, what the hell? He’s so mad, he throws down the tablets and breaks ’em! The things that God, I mean, God gave him the tablets. Yeah. He’s so mad, he breaks ’em. He breaks the Ikea instructions right there. Well, it was 10 commandments. And he’s so mad, he takes the golden calf, he throws it in a fire, then he grinds it down to powder, then he scatters it across the drinking water and he makes them fools drink it. Okay. It’s like, drink that God. And then he says, okay, whoever is on my side, come over here. And the Levite, this is the priests, they come over to him and Moses is like, all right, if you’re really on God’s side, then I want you to go into camp. Here, take these swords, go into camp, kill your brother and your friend and your neighbor. Prove it to me. They go into camp and they kill 3000 of their brothers, friends and neighbors. Ouch. And God is like, good. And then God is like, well, but I’m still gonna unleash a plague on you. Why the hell not? Great story. That’s it? I mean, the book continues and I mean, it continues to be a wild ride. But I wanna stop there because really, the point that I wanted to focus on was the building of the golden calf, right? Okay. So, what is the significance of this story? Well, this may not be what your pastor tells you, this may be what Pastor Rhett tells you. Oh, God. The people became impatient with Moses, right? Moses is taking too long. So what do they do? They made their own God. And it was a God that they could see, that they could understand, that they could relate to. It was tangible, it was defined; it was right there, it was a golden calf. So imagine if you’re a kid in this group of people and you see all these people worshiping this golden calf. Everyone, every adult in your community is doing it. The guy in charge, A-A-Ron, he’s telling you that this is your God, what do you do? Well, you don’t question that, right? The God that you are presented with is the God that you accept most often, regardless of the nature of that God; at least initially. And the God that I could understand, that my community could understand, that my country could understand, is a certain type of God, right? It’s the God of a, and not the full whole country, like, you know, a big swath of the country. The God of American Evangelical Christianity. And when I grew up, I took a closer look at that God, or what I would say the caricature of God that I had been given, and I became convinced that it wasn’t God. I became convinced that whatever God is, it must be bigger than the God that I’d placed my faith in. It must be bigger than the golden calf that I was given. So, You drank it. I mean, did I drink it? I don’t know. But somebody who has really helped me understand some of this stuff and has articulated some ideas that have resonated with me, another author, Anthony de Mello. This is a Jesuit priest from India. Oh, I thought he played for the Lakers. That’s Carmelo Anthony, sorry. You mentioned, you just mixed up, there was like De Angelo Russell, Anthony, Don’t let me throw you off. This was just a passing joke. So he’s a Jesuit priest from India, he’s known for his writing and teaching in the seventies and eighties, and last year I read his book, “Awareness,” that I have right here. I’m gonna read some of this. Essentially, he outlines his view of spirituality in this book. And he, I highly rec, this will be my rec, is this book. It’s a talk that that he gave at a retreat and then they just kind of turned it into a book. So when you read it, it sounds like somebody talking, so I recommend the Audible because it’s literally the recording of him actually saying this in a group. But there’s this section where he’s talking about Thomas Aquinas, St. Thomas in the Catholic church, who lived in the 13th century, wrote a lot of stuff about God. And he’s describing some things that Aquinas said about God. “In the prologue of his Summa Theologica, which was a summary of all his theology, Aquinas says, ‘About God, we cannot say what he is, but rather what he is not. And so we cannot speak about how he is, but rather how he is not.’ And then in another commentary, he talks about the ways of knowing God. ‘And the highest form of the knowledge of God is to know God, ton quam ignotum, to know God as the unknown.’” He discusses this a little bit and then Anthony says, “The fact is that you’re surrounded by God and you don’t see God because you, quote, know God; or you, quote, know about God. The final barrier to the vision of God is your God concept. You miss God because you think you know. That’s the terrible thing about religion.” Great book, a lot of wisdom in there. But this really, the way he talks about this God concept was very helpful to me, because it helped me understand the way that I had conceived of God for so much of my life, right? He’s got a lot of really great analogies in the book. I love analogies and I’m gonna give one of my own that has been helpful in this. Just imagine that there are multiple people who have telescopes pointed at the sun, to look at the sun. And then there’s one guy who starts saying, Hey, I think that the sun is in my telescope. You know, I think that my telescope is the thing. Like, it’s the right telescope. You’re convinced that the thing that gives you your concept of God, in this case your religion of choice, is the thing that is ultimate; the thing that matters versus whatever it’s pointing to, right? And I think that that, for me, was what happened. I think in many ways, it was a complete preoccupation with the telescope itself and a defense of the telescope itself. And being convinced that I had found the right telescope, and I’m learning more and more that my deconstruction was not necessarily a deconstruction of God, it was a deconstruction of my telescope. Okay, yeah. And now I’m going to talk a little bit about the book that I was featured in, Link. Oh yeah, here we go. To tease this idea out, that we’re talking about the telescopes. Because this view that I just described is actually pretty well described in this book. So this book is called “Surprise by Doubt: How Disillusionment Can Invite Us Into A Deeper Faith” by Josh Chatraw and Jack Carson. Now, I’ll just say right up front, these guys are Evangelical Christians who are still evangelical Christians. So as you can imagine, I do not agree with the conclusions that they come to in this book. And I am included in this book, not as a beacon of truth, but as an example of what not to do and what not to believe. But I will say, Josh and I, and you, have a mutual friend. And that was how he got in touch with me to tell me that I was gonna be included in this book, to send me a copy, a transcript of the book, and including the chapter that I was in. And I had a little correspondence with him. Before it was finalized? Before it was finalized. Okay. I haven’t compared what he sent me with what ended up in the book, I think it’s pretty much the same, but I really appreciate the courtesy of having talked to me ahead of time. And I will say that both of these guys, I don’t know Jack, but he wrote the book with Josh, they’re very charitable, they’re thoughtful, they discuss deconstruction and deconversion without attacking people’s character. What I think, and the conclusion that I have come to, are held up as examples of what they don’t agree with, but they don’t bash me. They don’t question my character and my motivations, so I really appreciate that because, That has happened. That happens most of the time Frequently. That people will talk about this stuff. And I will say that they both have had significant struggles with doubt, like real doubt. And they describe that. And they’re doubts that are similar to the doubts that I’ve had, that many people who have deconstructed, have had. And they don’t shy away from those things. They come to different conclusions, yes, they offer a traditional defense of the Christian faith, and they land in basically an evangelical POV at the end of the day. But they are honest about it, they’re charitable, and I appreciate the way that these guys have gone about this. Now, they use an analogy, you know they got me with an analogy. They use an analogy that CS Lewis introduced back in the day in reference to mere Christianity. And basically, it’s this idea that Christianity is a house with many rooms. And what CS Lewis saw his role as, is to invite people into what he called “Mere Christianity.” I mean, that’s a famous book, but it was also a concept. Basically, it means the baseline ideas, the foundational truths of Christianity that Would get you in the front door. Unite all Christians. And that was the front door in the hallway. Okay. And then along the hallway there are these rooms, and that would be your different traditions and denominations. And CS Lewis was like, you need to settle into one of these rooms. Like if you really want to sit down, have tea, sit next to the fire, have community, get outta the hallway, get into one of the rooms and that’s where you experience a real home. But he wasn’t trying to convince people of a room, he was trying to get people into the door. And so Josh and Jack expand on this analogy and introduce something called “Attic Christianity.” And this describes groups of Christians that kind of forget that they’re a part of the larger house and they retreat into the attic, right? Which is this confined, restricted space where you can become convinced that you are correct, that you are the most correct, maybe the only ones who are correct. That you have, like, you’re the closest thing to the truth, right? And this describes quite a few sort of sects of Chris, S-E-C-T-S of Christianity. Yeah. Including, American evangelicalism or what I described before, this non-denominational, reformed-ish, Baptist-ish southern evangelicalism that we were a part of; that I was a part of. You were actually a part of the Presbyterian church, Link. Yeah. But we tended to think like, the reason if your mind is like mine, you kind of convinced yourself that of all the options that you had in your community, that this one is the best one. You go to the church that’s the best church, according to what they believe; not according to like who’s got the best music or whatever. I mean, a lot of people make that, but I was like, you believe the right thing, right? So, and then they talk about this process. There’s people who are in the attic, and when you’re in the attic and you’re in this restricted, confined space, you’re just asking to hit your head on the rafters, right? You’re asking to become disillusioned with this very narrow view that you have adopted. And then what you do is you jump out of the second story attic and you land on the ground, and it’s bad, bad news, right? Hmm. And the point of the book is to encourage people who are in the attic to come back to the main floor of Christianity, examine the central claims of Christianity, the foundation, stay inside the house. Okay. Don’t jump out. So how did I end up in the book, man? And I would say that you’re kind of in the book. This is how you got in the book, Link. Chapter eight called “Open Spirituality,” it says “Recently, the YouTube personality and co-host of Good Mythical Morning Rhett McLaughlin shared his deconversion story online.” So the other host is Link Neal, that’s not mentioned, but it’s implied. I like it this way. In this setting, maybe exclusively in this setting. Yeah. This is, I don’t need a shout out. Hey, this is the problem. Hey, I’m gonna say though, this is the problem when you blabber on about it as much as I do, you get in the books. When you shut up about it, you don’t get in the books. Yeah. So, I mean, good, bad, indifferent, I don’t know. Seems that you’d prefer to not be in the book, which I don’t blame you. So, Yeah, it means I didn’t have to read it. The idea is when you jump out of the Christian House, you can sort of inhabit other houses or other beliefs, right? And they outline different paths that people can take and then they choose a representative person to represent that view. And I got to be the guy who represents Open Spirituality. That’s what they call it. Okay? And they use me to represent this view based on some of the things that I’ve said in the past and then I think I’ve reinforced it in some ways by some of the things I’ve said today, but essentially, So you represented open spirituality as a viable option? No, no, no, no. As the option where you jumped out of the attic instead of coming back down? I think, if I can recall, you can jump into atheism, or new atheism they specifically call it, Open Spirituality, Mythic Christianity, which they use Jordan Peterson as the representative for that because he talks about Christianity as a myth, and I can’t remember the other one. But you can jump into these different, alternative belief systems that are not Christianity. Okay. And Open Spirituality is one of them. So, I got the honor of being the representative here because I have talked about my problem with certainty about spiritual things, check. My general openness to spirituality, check. And even my specific openness to, and adherence to the teachings of Jesus, despite not really knowing what I think about Jesus historically, check. And then after presenting what I believe, which again, they do say this, that like they’re kind of using me as a representative and then they’re critiquing this broader idea of open spirituality. They’re not specifically critiquing anything that I’ve said. I’m not gonna spend a lot of time talking about the critique and giving an answer to it, just because I think, well, first of all I probably already lost you if you’re not interested in this stuff. But I have something more interesting that I wanna talk about, but I also don’t wanna seem like I’m dodging; these guys took the time to put me in the book and to use my view to represent this and then to critique it, so I do wanna respond. So I’ve kind of tried to narrow it down to a couple of points that they made. So, they say that when you reject an established religious structure and then you pick and choose which spiritual ideas you want to subscribe to, you are making yourself the ultimate judge of truth and this is not a reliable basis for a spiritual life. And I would say: I agree, I agree. You personally wanting something to be true or feeling that something is true, doesn’t make it true. I would just go one step further and say, I don’t think any religious structure, whether it’s based on an existing system or one that you personally piece together, is reliable. It may be truly useful, it may be truly meaningful, it may be truly transformative, but I’m not convinced that it is true in some defensible, factual sense. So in other words, a religion followed by only me is probably not true. While a religion that’s followed by a lot of people may feel more true because a lot of people are following it, but it’s probably also not true. Just because there’s a lot of people using the telescope doesn’t mean that it’s the best or the most correct picture of the sun. So I would say I agree and I’m just going a step further, if that makes sense. They also say that open spirituality is not nearly as fair-minded or unbiased, or as free as people like me might believe, because people like me are still very much influenced by the cultural status quo, right? We say that we’re not adhering to a religion, but we kind of are. We kind of are, in a sense, adhering to another religion that they would call the Spirit of the Age. And whatever morality or standards come from the spirit of the age are without any reference to an ultimate moral authority, because they’re just rooted in human subjectivity. They’re not rooted in a objective, moral source; God or the Bible. And again, I agree. I actually agree with this point because I believe that, I believe what I believe, because of some combination of my DNA and my experience. And my experience includes the time and place that I was born, the culture that I was born into; my experience. This mind, interacting with this world that I am in, has resulted in a perspective that I have. I 100% agree with that. But again, I think they stop short and I would go one step further and say: religious structures, including Christianity, aren’t independent objective systems. They are also a product of their time and place. And I think the more that I have looked into Christianity and into the Bible, I have seen that they in and of themselves are the same type of product of time and place. Think about that God that Moses was interacting with at the top of the mountain. And this God is up there saying, build this in this very specific way, using these very specific materials, sacrifice things in this way oh, I wanna kill these people. Do this with your slave. And then you ask yourself the question, why is that God, why does that God seem so different than Jesus? Now, I know what the traditional Christian answer to that is. That it’s the same God relating to people, who are different. He has the capacity to relate to people in different ways, and there are different sort of eras of his relationship and grace and all that. But I tend to think a much better explanation is the way that, the reason that God, for Moses on top of that mountain, was saying those things, is because that God was a product of those people at that time and place. The reason that God was talking about those things is because that’s the God that they needed at the time. They needed a God to tell them what to do with their slaves. They needed a God to tell ’em what to do when the bull gets out and gores somebody. They needed a God to tell them that this is the kind of place that they want, that this God wants to live, right? And I believe that this is an illuminating perspective on the Bible itself. When you understand that the people who were writing are conceptualizing God for themselves, at the time and the place that they find themselves in. And that’s why, despite the Christian doctrine of the univocality of the Bible, the idea that this is God’s word, it’s authoritative and is consistent, and it’s of one voice. Despite being a doctrine of the church, it doesn’t fit well at all with the reality of the Bible, which feels like a disparate collection of writings of people who believe different things; that had different gods because they are creating these gods for themselves. And so to me, when you say to me that as an open spiritualist, I am a product of my time and place, I am submitting to the spirit of the age, I’d say, okay, yes; to a point, I agree. I have to agree because I have no choice, because I think that the spirit of the age is determining what we’re all thinking, depending on what our starting point is. But I think that the system that you are holding up as being somehow outside of and above the spirit of the age, is just the spirit of another age. Does that make sense? Yeah. Now, I could talk about this for a really long time, as you can imagine. These are the kinds of things that I listen to, when I’m working out, Link. I’m almost tempted to begin just curling while talking about this. That’s not gonna be a good look. But, I think it’ll connect more with people who don’t think about it in the way that I think about it, to expand on the analogy that they use in the book. ‘Cause I think that this analogy is useful, I love analogies, and I think that to help understand where I ended up landing and the way that I see things now, going a few steps further on their analogy would be helpful. So I agree with Josh and Jack that I was in the attic. I was in attic Christianity, right? I mean, take for example the fact that one of, sort of, the big dominoes to fall for me was beginning to believe in evolution, right? When the evidence for common ancestry became indisputable and overwhelming, I couldn’t reconcile it with the view that I had of the special creation of animals and especially people. And that was only a problem because I was an evangelical Christian. If I had have been Catholic, then I would’ve been like, oh, the Pope already said that evolution happened. So, this isn’t a problem for me. This doesn’t change anything, right? But because I was in my very specific attic, that really screwed up my telescope. It was a giant ding in my particular telescope. But I do not believe that I jumped out of the attic. This is where I take issue, right? I don’t think I jumped out of the attic. I went back down to the main floor, I looked around, I inspected the foundation. That’s essentially what a decade of my struggle was. And I saw some cracks. I saw a lot of cracks in the foundation of this house. Some real structural issues, coming from a former civil engineer. And when I found these, I went and I asked some people in the house about ’em, you know, guys who seem like the experts. And essentially what they would tell me is that, listen, the house is in great shape. There’s nothing wrong with the house. The foundation is solid. If you’re seeing problems, that’s not because there’s something wrong with the house, it’s because there’s something wrong with you. You, your perspective is messed up. The house is solid. The Christian foundation, the Christian House is solid. But I was telling people, you know, I think I might leave the house, I think I might go outside and they’re like, it’s dangerous out there. Don’t leave the house, it’s the last thing you wanna do. You can’t have a meaningful life out there. You cannot have a meaningful life outside the house. There’s nothing but emptiness and destruction outside of the house. This is where God lives, this is his house. This is the place where you need to be, this is the place where it’s safe. But, I kept finding issues. And I would say specifically the thing that I was finding was, I was finding things that maybe made me think that the house wasn’t built by God, but that the house was built by people. That was the overwhelming conclusion that I was coming to, right? Continuing to find this evidence that I couldn’t have confidence in this as some home of spiritual truth, because people had created it. And when I finally admitted to myself that I couldn’t have confidence in the house, I walked out the front door. I didn’t jump out of the attic, I walked out the front door. And then when I walked out, I looked back at the house. And from the outside I could see, you know, there’s a lot of things about this house that are beautiful, meaningful. There’s transformational aspects of this house for the people who are inside. But I saw something else that when I was outside of the house, it seemed even more evident to me that it was a house built by people, not a house that God built. And then the longer I stayed outside, and the longer that I looked at it, the more and more, you know, a new perspective of the house emerged as like, well, definitely this is a house built by people. I see why I didn’t see that when I was inside. But now that I’m on the outside, it’s very evident to me that this is a construction of people. But I also looked around and saw something else. I saw other houses that people had built, and inside all these houses, there were people saying very similar things. They’re like, our house was built by God. This is where God lives. They’re passionate. They had their own set of evidence. They had their own reasons for why their house was the place that God lived. Just an interesting note. Oh, there’s other people who think like we did when we were inside our house. Now I’m gonna be honest, it wasn’t easy. It has not been easy to be on the outside of the house. Inside the house, there’s house rules, there’s systems, there’s rituals, there’s answers. Somebody dies, we know what to do. Somebody gets married, we know what to do. Somebody gets sick, we know what to do. On the outside, those rules are not as established and it makes life a little bit more difficult in one sense. You don’t have the same house rules. Also found that the people who were still on the inside of the house, thought a lot less of me for being on the outside. They told me all the real reasons that I left the house. Even though while I was in the house, and as I was leaving the house, and after I left the house, I told them why I left the house. And it was because I had problems with the house. No, no, no. We cannot accept that. The problem is you. You never really were a member of this house, by the way. You never really belonged in this house. You never really believed the things that we believe. They told me why I had left the house. They reminded me that the issues that I had with the house were illegitimate, and it was really masking some deeper desire, right? My desire to essentially just be my own selfish self outside of the house, to follow my own selfish desires. I’ve been deceived. At best, I’ve been deceived. At worst, I was just being a selfish asshole who wanted to be my own God, and was not willing to live inside of a house. But I also found a lot of other people outside that house. You know, some of ’em had walked out of the house, the same house. Some of them had similar reasons for leaving. They decided there was something wrong with the house and they had left. A lot of people had left for completely different reasons. They had been badly hurt by somebody inside the house, right? There was also a bunch of people who had walked out of a bunch of other houses, and then there was a bunch of people who had never been in a house at all and found it odd that we had all been in those houses and were so serious about it. And I noticed something about these people. Some of them were self-absorbed, some of them were narcissists, some of them were dangerous. Some of them were living lives with only themselves in mind. Just like a lot of people in the house, surprisingly. And some of them were genuine on the outside. Some of them were kind, loving, helpful. There were selfless people living lives with others in mind, just like some people in the house. But I found that most of them were like me. Some combination of those things, messy. Trying their best, screwing up a lot. Just like a lot of people in the house, just like a lot of people outside the house, just like people. And so I started to doubt whether or not someone being good or bad had much at all to do with whether or not they had ever been in the house or they were in the house. It seemed like the main purpose of the house was to be able to say who was in the house and who was outside of the house. It was a way to kind of know where people stood, right? And so it was a great way to divide people into those who belong and those who didn’t belong. But like I said, I’ve been told that there would be no hope. There’s no hope outside the house. There’s no meaning, there’s no purpose out there. That isn’t what I found at all. I found that just like when I did, when I was inside the house, I wanted to live a life characterized by love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control; IE, the fruits of the spirit or the fruit of the spirit. And I found, not only did I know a lot of people outside of the house that wanted to live like that, I wanted to live like that and I could also continue to live that kind of life and pursue those kinds of things outside of the house. And I actually found many, many things outside of the house that were incredible resources for that kind of life. Things that I would have never seen, heard, touched, been exposed to, if I’d have stayed in the house. And then in terms of God, once I got outside of the house, I didn’t stop looking for God. I was just convinced that he wasn’t inside or only inside that house. And it wasn’t that I stopped hearing God’s voice. Sometimes I think I do hear God’s voice, but it’s not coming from one of the houses. It’s coming from over the ridge, or in the river or in the wind, right? And it’s not saying very specific things about who God is and what God wants. It’s a different kind of voice. And sometimes, I think that maybe God is just all around outside; inside, outside and all around the houses. I don’t really know and I don’t know if that’s the point, but I’m not ever going to stop listening, ever stop pursuing and ever stop trying to hear and follow God’s voice. But I’m definitely, I mean, the one thing I am pretty thoroughly convinced of at this point is that though I’m not sure where God is, I’m convinced that they are not limited to one particular structure. They’re not in any one of the houses. And I don’t know, when it comes to spirituality and spiritual things, I think where I have ultimately landed is that spiritual, I do believe, or certainly hope that spiritual experiences can be attained. But I’m not convinced that they can be contained or explained. I’m not trying to sound like Jesse Jackson here. But I think, ultimately, that is the viewpoint from outside of the house. A hope, a desire, a sense that there is something beyond. And that I’m driven by a desire to connect with whatever that is. But the idea that I have to contain it and explain it. The idea that that thing, whatever it is, is constrained to an idea, to a book, to a religious philosophy, to an ideology, seems pretty preposterous. And the last thing I’ll say is, ’cause it’s a common criticism, whenever I speak in this way, what I am told is that I am just proposing a new philosophy. That I’m making a new truth claim. That I’m doing something that’s no different. Another way to say that is you might say that I am building a new house. I do not believe that is what’s happening. I am saying I’m not building a new house, on purpose. And to tell me that my not building a house is building a house, that I’m not building a house. That’s the thing I’m taking issue with. I’m not making a truth claim that I think applies to you and everyone else. I am saying that, about such things, I don’t think we can make truth claims. And if you wanna get into semantics and say that that’s a truth claim in and of itself, I think you’re missing the point that I’m making. I’m saying I’m not building a house. Don’t think we should build houses, at least right now. That’s not a house. So, Pastor Rhett, are you gonna close with an invitation? Yeah. I would like everyone to bow their heads. Nope. And close their eyes. And to not come into my house, because I don’t have one. Okay. Let’s just keep walking around, guys. Let’s just keep walking around and be there for each other. See somebody in need, help ’em out. Make healthy choices. Love people. It doesn’t seem that complicated. But you are gonna recommend a book. You’ve already done it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I recommend, I mean, I can’t say I recommend “Surprised by Doubt,” even though I’m in it. Listen, if you wanna read it, fine. I’ve already told you about it, I told you what was in it. The only reason I’m saying I don’t recommend it, is ’cause I don’t agree with it. But what I do recommend is Anthony de Mello, “Awareness.” And I would say, if you don’t wanna sit down and listen to something that’s like nine hours long, just search Anthony de Mello on YouTube and just click on any one of his short videos. He is a character and a half, Oh yeah? And he’s very funny, and I just love the guy and I love the way he talks about things. And I think you might too. Well, I appreciate the update. I think that was, it’s very well organized. It wasn’t built, though. Nope. Because, I mean, it wasn’t a structure. And I think I did pretty good too. You did great. I didn’t interrupt you and I wasn’t tempted to fall asleep, which is to your credit. So, where’s my candy? We’ll get you some, we got candy on the front desk. Carly’s got some Butter Fingers for you. Next week, we have fielded questions. In addition to me sharing what I wanna share, we’ve got questions that we’re gonna move through at a pretty decent pace. Good questions that we’ve heard again, and again and again pop up every time you share an update, or I share an update, or we weigh in on spiritual topics. So we’re gonna get into that, it’ll be a different vibe, but similar topic next week. So, follow along the conversation. Hashtag Earbiscuits. Remember, leave a review wherever you listen. That’s always helpful to us. We really appreciate it. And, call us and leave a voicemail. You know, we like hearing your voice, especially if you’re asserting something that might elicit a response from us. Hmm. So, let us have it. 1-888-Earpod1. Earpod1. That’s it. You got nothing else to say? That’s it. No benediction? Thanks for listening, maybe we’ll talk about it again. You’ll talk about it next week. You’re gonna give us a little update. Yeah. But maybe we’ll talk about it next year, maybe we won’t. We never know. Hi guys, Janna from Alabama. Listening to the Taylor Swift episode, great episode, hilarious. People are people. It’s just fun to speculate about all that stuff and allow them to be people. I enjoyed your take on it and I’m very appreciative. Take care, bye.